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Increased risk of bladder damage from impurities in illegally manufactured ketamine

J

joe456

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
127
Me and some of my friends have noticed that recent ketamine seems to be a lot worse for people's bladders than the stuff that was around a few years ago. I used to never feel anything in my bladder despite averaging 3/4 of a gram a day for a while. Now that amount in a night is enough to cause a sensation in my bladder the next day and after a few days of that amount (a rare occurrence) i would expect to need to wee more. Sometimes the flow of urine takes a while to start, as if I'm on mdma, this is especially apparent if I mix k with any stimulants even though other stimulants will not give me this effect by themselves). I've been told this may be due to impurities since more ketamine is illegally produced (and therefore not medical/ veterinary grade as I have been told it usually was a few years ago). I thought cumulative damage at first but this symptoms started occuring when i resumed occasional ketamine use after a break and never had more than what used to be my daily average. Also people who have started recently experience symptoms at a similar level to me. Anyone got any info or experiences?
I'd be especially interested if anyone could shed any light on if this is likely an accurate indicator of it possibly being worse for me to occasionally take this much k now than it used to be to have it daily :eek: One possible answer I can think of (that's pure speculation) is maybe it is more acidic or irritating to the bladder in some other way but not necessarily more likely to recrystallise in the bladder so bladder sensations/ pain might not always be the best indicator of how much damage it might be doing.
 
Maybe you have just accumulated damage during the years of use.
Its perfectly possible that some chronic inflammation has built up and that recent use just made you aware of it.
 
Hmmm don't know if that's likely...

Almost no actual ketamine is excreted in the urine (and what's excreted in the urine will sit waiting in the bladder so that will be the culprit)... this would initially support your ideas.

But the main metabolite norketamine is not produced in typical ketamine synthesis, which follows quite different intermediates.
At best, I see some similarity between cycloalkyl alcohols that are both found as intermediate in the synthesis and also as minor metabolites. I'm not sure if we really know which of these compounds is the most irritating to the mucosal linings in the bladder.

Acidic shouldn't be a huge problem but actually just good against urinary tract infection - but indeed irritating is apparently what they are.

If you'd go back to pharmaceutical K and see considerable and unmistakable improvement with these issues, simultaneously, then that would do much more to support your theory.. Meanwhile, consider the possibility of just 'cumulative' damage even despite the break, and also that this damage is particularly dose-dependent and that it should really help to limit how much you use in a session.
Also the concurrent use with stims may be a problem since you may be keeping more concentrated urine in your bladder for a longer period of time. Avoid the combinations if you can and drink loads of water.

I'm sorta sad that my magic with K has apparently disappeared quite a long while ago and I can't get it back but it's probably for the best for my bladder AND kidneys, and even to some extent liver, that I have given it up entirely. Things like 3-MeO-PCP are very different but special in their own right, also dangerous in their own right, quite differently. But the much lower doses and different structure may mean it's much harder to get those kinds of health problems.
 
Almost certainly accumulated damage. Take it easy, a friend of mine has caused physical damage.
 
I used ketamine HEAVILY over the last decade, often doing multiple grams in a day, I've done all kinds. I'm at the point now, where the last time I ingested dissociatives (8 months ago, 15mg mxe) it was so irritating I had to get up 4 times a night to pee for several months after - also, I can feel my bladder is about 1/3 the size it used to be, and no longer elastic. Whenever it is at all full, there is an immediate urge to urinate. I think this damage is cumulative, over time relative to amount used. From my research, there is are some metabolites of the arecyclos that are directly cystitic to bladder tissue, although I too have wondered about the lack of symptoms especially for the older (john c lilly time period) users that were using all properly buffered vials. It seems though, that not just ketamine but all it's anologues cause this type of damage. I'm just praying for bladder data on PCP that's favorable(unlikely) OR some super awesome DXO anologues to hit the market...
 
Actually im curious about this.

I have really not ever properly gotten into K because my bladder gets to savage.

All of the K i have had has been from "doofs" aka. Music festivals.
Some of it had been fair good stuff ime(small bump, less than a point type if bump and your fucked, but not holing)
And i have had trash that was cut to shit.
Everytime ive had K ive had some random bladder problems like peeing more for longer or quite sharp pain in the bladder region.

But i have only had ket like what.. 4 times maybe?
So idk if mine is cumulative, its weird.
Like i can have a really small amount, and have bladder pain so bad i almost cant walk.

I havent touched it in a bit now because of this, but damn lsd and ket. You decent.

EDIT: i should iterate. When i have had K that was worse and more obviously cut, its affected my bladder more than when i have had good crystally shiznit.
 
Motifoner said:
EDIT: i should iterate. When i have had K that was worse and more obviously cut, its affected my bladder more than when i have had good crystally shiznit.
Click to expand...

Some of the sensations you're getting might simply be nocebo - a version of the placebo effect where you're feeling more side-effects because you're expecting the material to be harmful. Especially if the material was actually just cut with caffeine, and you're interpreting the increased urge to urinate as a sign of bladder damage.

As for the OP, I agree with the others that it's probably a case of chronic inflammation / scarring that has built up over the years.
 
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Yea it's like ulcerative cystitis.. there seems to be scarring + scar tissue build-up above certain dosages and reduction in elasticity because this scar tissue is stiff. Under a certain dosage (anecdotally reported by a physician as 2 mg/kg orally though it's uncertain if that doesn't just amount to roughly the same type of norketamine or hydroxynorketamine amounts as when using other ROAs) symptoms seem to go away unless you're getting fubar'd.

cdin said:
I'm just praying for bladder data on PCP that's favorable(unlikely) OR some super awesome DXO anologues to hit the market...
Click to expand...

But PCP and 3-MeO-PCP are so much more potent that all else being equal you wouldn't really tend to go over those threshold dosages mentioned for K. When used in higher dosages for extended periods you wouldn't just worry about your bladder with PCP type stuff but your sanity, liver function, rhabdo and bioaccumulation, or worse.
So you'd just have to hope that PCP and the like aren't like 10 times as caustic as K?
 
Hodor said:
Some of the sensations you're getting me might simply be nocebo - a version of the placebo effect where you're feeling more side-effects because you're expecting the material to be harmful. Especially if the material was actually just cut with caffeine, and you're interpreting the increased urge to urinate as a sign of bladder damage.

As for the OP, I agree with the others that it's probably a case of chronic inflammation / scarring that has built up over the years.
Click to expand...

Idk, possibly on the last time i did it but the first like 3 times i had no knowledge of what its capable of(in terms of bladder damage).
I do not believe nocebo is the culprit.

Like caffeine? Yea that would make you pee more, i drink upto 4 coffees a day i know the toilet well. But caffeine has never made me pee for Literally 5 minutes straight streaming, to the point where i didnt get to a trickle and finished i simply packed up and walked away after watching 5 minutes pass on my phone.(while streaming not trickling at any point).

5 minutes later, i had to go piss again for 5 minutes, im actually been serious about these times frames too, i started wondering whether a "liquid spawn point" appeared inside me...

This kept happening for like.. And hour and a half to two hours then i managed to overcome the urge to pee and sleep. I woke up allgood but took another long one.
Sorry for so much detail but its needed to get across that im not falling into a mental trick about it.

I dont think the nocebo or placebo can bring on pain so sharp you cant walk, i thought i was literally going to piss straight blood. I have dabbled a lot with placebo too i can sometimes click onto when im placeboing myself, and i can go the other way too. All the times ive ended up in pain ive been not thinking to much(to the extent you can) about it and trying to focus on other stuff to settle the pain.
It is deffinately actual physical pain its not just "my mind playing tricks on me".

Edit: essentially i am trying to figure out if anyone else has had problems like me from small amounts of use, ive never had more than 250mg in a night or day. I have seen people drop a "twofa" in a day and not have any bladder repercussions.
 
the thing is, (back to my post) MXE is much more potent too, my last disso use was !15!mg of mxe, and it made me like an old man (up peeing 4 times a night, ruining my mental health). It was awful, and I noted to myself I had better not touch another ulcerative bladder drug lest I have to have my bladder removed! So, despite PCP being much more potent, I am extremely concerned that smoking 15 - 20mg would render effects similar to the MXE. PCP is my favorite by far, and I would really like some sign that it doesn't have the same properties(not holding my breath). Given it's potency and sincerely long acting nature, presumably causing metabolites for a long period of time, I am freaked out about touching it. If anyone has any info, please let me know! life is not nearly as weird these days :( I'm getting to the point where I may just chug a bottle of robo...
 
Ketamine is harsh on the kidneys and bladder, I don't think anyone needs to tell you that.
Bodily damage is quite subjective with some hardcore users never having any issues and others, like myself, experiencing the worst.
Last harvest I was bored while trimming so I bought a couple bags of K, doing the equivalent of an 8 ball a day - after a week I was in the bathroom every five minutes with the worst stabbing pains in my bladder area and I would only pee a tiny bit.
My answer for this was more K.
A few weeks later I made he trip up to Portland from Humbdolt County for vacation and I stopped at least twenty times to piss in the Redwood forest.
I had to swear off K and take a ton of Azos.
fast forward four months I'm IV'ing heroin and ketamine again and thinking nothing of it until I try to get clean and realize the permanent damage I've done.
I have to take medication to help me not piss myself now at the age of 22.
I continue to use K every now and again. The addict in me can't be stopped I guess
 
please, for your bodies sake stop. I too LOVE, LOVE k. I've done pounds of it over decades. But the bladder - it's not worth it.
 
I've been banging on about this in another thread. S-Isomer which is more common now than ever should be easier on the bladders and kidneys much more so than the R-isomer, this is quite well documented in research papers and why it's been indicated as the preferred choice as a human anaesthetic, the clearance is much faster.

The problem now is subsitutes such as Tiletamine which are being found cut with K or just sold as K (especially in the UK), far worse renal toxicity than ketamine and poor clearance.
 
thespice said:
I've been banging on about this in another thread. S-Isomer which is more common now than ever should be easier on the bladders and kidneys much more so than the R-isomer, this is quite well documented in research papers and why it's been indicated as the preferred choice as a human anaesthetic, the clearance is much faster.

The problem now is subsitutes such as Tiletamine which are being found cut with K or just sold as K (especially in the UK), far worse renal toxicity than ketamine and poor clearance.
Click to expand...

I don't very much doubt the difference in clearance (although it is not a huge difference i think)... what I do doubt is that it is the primary reason for choosing the pure isomer for anaesthetic. The R-isomer is just hardly anaesthetic by comparison, but more likely to fuck you up mentally like PCP or xphenidines... ever tried it? I think you'd understand.
Not only is it ineffective to administer the R-isomer along as anaesthetic but it also makes for a lot more disturbing experiences in patients which they really don't want. Yes the quicker recovery can also be of help, but mostly for people's experience probably, or greater control over the anaesthesia... not for the occasional time the patient has to process K renally.



Whether it helps for recreational users to get S-ketamine depends on what they are looking for in K - if the R-isomer makes the experience more psychedelic it could make the total dose taken lower for people who don't find S-ket psychedelic enough.
But in other cases yes it would help to leave the R out, if it's not weighing up against the worse clearance etc.
 
I don't very much doubt the difference in clearance (although it is not a huge difference i think)... what I do doubt is that it is the primary reason for choosing the pure isomer for anaesthetic. The R-isomer is just hardly anaesthetic by comparison, but more likely to fuck you up mentally like PCP or xphenidines... ever tried it? I think you'd understand.
Not only is it ineffective to administer the R-isomer along as anaesthetic but it also makes for a lot more disturbing experiences in patients which they really don't want. Yes the quicker recovery can also be of help, but mostly for people's experience probably, or greater control over the anaesthesia... not for the occasional time the patient has to process K renally.
Click to expand...

You are right it's not the only reason but it's a factor, renal clearance of R is longer than S and more damaging to the the renal system (and liver if I remember rightly), it's in some medical papers I read but was such a long time ago I'm having trouble locating it.
 
thespice said:
You are right it's not the only reason but it's a factor, renal clearance of R is longer than S and more damaging to the the renal system (and liver if I remember rightly), it's in some medical papers I read but was such a long time ago I'm having trouble locating it.
Click to expand...

Ketamine is safe in liver and renal failure though, an acute dose even high does not appear to be such a problem like chronic recreational doses are, so I don't really see why they would care. I mean, sure it's a welcome difference as you never *want* to have it lingering longer than normal, but I doubt it would make an actual significance to any medical choice about what anaesthic is used. I'm saying if the clearance of S was longer but the pharmacology is like in reality, they would still use the S-isomer.
If only because the needed dose for anaesthesia would have to be higher which kind of negates the clearance benefit.
 
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