I'm uncertain if psychedelics would improve my life or not. Advice?
- Thread starter Shimmerchasm
- Start date
InterestingFACT
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2013
- Messages
- 512
That was an unclear point I made, because I was typing on my phone late last night. I tried to clean my post up a bit just now.
Anyways, pmoseman (not to single him/her out) brought up evidence-based science with the inference that people who use/believe in the therapeutic potential of psychedelics aren't familiar with it. I wanted to counter that claim, because I think the reality is that evidence-based science shows a lot of benefits to psychedelic drug use. In fact, if you look at my first post in this thread, on page one, you'll notice that I linked to some of that scientific research which shows the long-term benefits of a psychedelic experience.
In any case, I think this tangent has gone on long enough. I'm going to focus only on giving the best advice to the OP from now on in this thread.
@Shimmerchasm:
You shouldn't have to wait a full 30 days after Zoloft. You be probably be able to trip even while on it--just to a lesser degree. Even a few days or a week off of it would probably be enough. Idk zoloft's half life off hand, but assume that it takes 4 complete half lives of the drug for it to become insignificant in your system. That being said, the longer you wait, the better handle you'll have on any rebound depression from stopping ssri treatment.
About your history and set and setting: you've got to expect all that to come out. I could easily see you getting caught up in negative thought loops about your history, which is why it's important for you to have a trip sitter who can draw you out of those thoughts by changing your setting, distracting you, etc.
I think the best place to experience a psychedelic is the great outdoors. Everything tends to look incredibly magical, out there. Even if you have a backyard or similar, that might do--but being in the woods or by a lake, etc would be best. That being said, it's best to be someplace familiar, and someplace where you feel safe--eg. Not paranoid the cops are going to come bust you for being on drugs (and believe me, that's a pretty easy paranoid thought to fall into while on mushrooms).
Either way, the visuals set the tone/mood, but you can have an introspective trip anywhere.
If you say your family is addictive/dysfunctional. But you don't appear to be, then I recommend that you hold onto a thought like "I make my own fate" or similar. A "truth" that absolves you of the perceived "inevitability" of you following your families footsteps. If you haven't shown evidence of their dysfunction so far, then hold onto that as evidence of your difference from them. I say this because, while under the influence of a psychedelic drug, you'll be much more prone to "eureka" moments or feelings of revelation. An argument like I just mentioned above, though it may seem rational to your sober mind, isn't going to absolve your inner turmoil. But while on an hallucinogen, it might. Basically, hallucinogens make reasonably deep thoughts or truths seems incredibly profound and world-shattering.
@ismene: that's a valid point. I've had incredible empathy on lsd and lsa, but it's always an analytical kind of feeling. I'm an analytical person myself, so I enjoy that very cerebral emotional experience, but I can understand others might find it cold. Mushrooms, on the other hand, bowl me over repeatedly with waves of intense emotions: fear, love, wonder, etc. In that sense mushrooms have a very primal feeling. It almost reminds me of what I imagine a lower animal would feel--eg. The intense, formless fear of a mouse running from a cat. So I can absolutely understand why you say mushrooms could be good for "cathartic cries" though I've never done that myself.
@jason: I don't get significant nausea from psilocin analogues. This leads me to believe that a lot of that nausea is coming from the large quantity of plant material you're consuming. Maybe a cold water extract of the ground mushroom would solve this nausea issue for you?
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Shimmerchasm
Greenlighter
What about tripping while blindfolded for part of the time? Would that allow for more introspection?
pmoseman
Bluelighter
Don't know if you read my comments but this is what I was also driving at.
For me at least, it was hard to differentiate things that had normal explanations. It was along the lines of megalomania. Facing more complex explanations of what *might* be happening: evil spirits, searching for my real name, etc. this delusional mental condition crippled me from dealing with simple issues; I was by no means perfect before using drugs but I wouldn't have classified myself as sick either, just disgruntled.
It seems likely that this or that issue was caused by psychedelic use and not just some coincidence as suggested by at least one really bizarre study, which claims psychedelics lower insanity?
I cannot imagine how psychedelics might have helped me, lol. To hear someone claim that my splash-down was all caused by taking them "wrong" or that my sanity was an inevitable failure. That is absurd. I may have taken too many, but I was not taking them wrong.
It certainly seems to me that I had the mystical or religious experience talked about when people are talking about mushrooms. To deny that mushrooms are associated with religious and mystical experience, or that these are not real, is simply being uninformed. How closed off are you from the rest of the world? You obviously have an internet connection. I am baffled by this. Sure a sign as any that I was doing them right.
It didn't seem taking shrooms and acid was helpful at all. Probably because I had nothing wrong with me, like depression or anxiety, before taking them; I cannot say whether or not they help those conditions. If you are self-diagnosing yourself with depression or anxiety, chances are, you are probably wrong about that.
I understand that people may have very different experiences than I had, especially ones starting with real conditions, but I distrust the honesty of anyone claiming traditional issues plainly seen with mushrooms, eg going mad, are no longer relevant or that the complete opposite is true, that I am the one giving the wrong impression? Certainly hope nobody is dismissing my credibility.
Am I incorrect in feeling put under a microscope; having security issues?
I am not an assumptive person. I might not be 100% sure about how generalizable my experience of drugs are, but I can personally verify that there are much more complex concerns, beyond simple efficacy, when taking their use under consideration; would like to see a more balanced discussion, one that involves this concern.
Just follow the yellow brick road.
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They didn't help you. That's fair enough. Nothing works for everyone. But in the same way you need to accept that your "think of a goal and visualise it" won't work for everyone either.
If you are self-diagnosing yourself with depression or anxiety, chances are, you are probably wrong about that.
What a load of bullshit.
pmoseman
Bluelighter
Well. I was confused about which thread I was posting in; but none the less, visualizing problems is a process that has been proven to work. We are at A and want to be at B, imagine yourself at B and understand what you have now that you are at B.
Now that you see what you want; if you can't seem to get there write out the steps you take and explain each decision in the process, then you can evaluate pieces independently for their logic and your gut feeling.
If a step cannot be worked out, then work out every possible combination from that point to a point which leads directly to success. After eliminating those that do not lead to your goal, maybe your goal is simply not even possible; one tends to get over it at that point.
Now, this is nothing more than simply problem solving recommendations which work, for at least a few problems.
There are hundreds of techniques one could employ. Rephrasing the problem into a negative which can be worked on, solving a similar simplified problem to get the pattern, researching previous solutions, etc.
Now that you see what you want; if you can't seem to get there write out the steps you take and explain each decision in the process, then you can evaluate pieces independently for their logic and your gut feeling.
If a step cannot be worked out, then work out every possible combination from that point to a point which leads directly to success. After eliminating those that do not lead to your goal, maybe your goal is simply not even possible; one tends to get over it at that point.
Now, this is nothing more than simply problem solving recommendations which work, for at least a few problems.
There are hundreds of techniques one could employ. Rephrasing the problem into a negative which can be worked on, solving a similar simplified problem to get the pattern, researching previous solutions, etc.
furryfreek
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2014
- Messages
- 129
I've recently found psychedelics (namely psilacetin, aka 4-aco-dmt and subjectively indistinguishable from psilocin/mushrooms) somewhat beneficial personally, despite not getting back into them with that in mind (I was just after pretty patterns and mindfuck tbh.) I would agree with what others have mentioned about dosing on the low side, not just because it's your first time but also because at higher doses things get pretty unpredictable and just generally fucked up (though not neccessarily in a bad way). So even if you did, say, grapple with a load of personal issues whilst peaking on a high (or even average) dose of shrooms you'd be lucky if you were able to comprehend those thoughts upon return to sobriety, let alone integrate them into your life.
For me, the most (or come to think of it, only) theraputic experiences have been at threshold doses (e.g. 8-15mg psilacetin fumarate). At this sort of dose, the primary effects are sedation and euphoria, with visual disturbances being more like a side effect, often only present during the first 10-30 minutes of the peak or sometimes not at all. The best way I can describe the theraputic effects of such a threashold dose is that it helps dissolve all the assumptions and preconceptions you build up during the course of everyday life, making it easier, for me at least, to identify what I really want/need out of life rather than what I think society wants of me or what makes my wallet fatter or whatever. I guess you could even define it as a sort of nootropic, but specifically targeted towards introspection etc. rather than cognition in general. Don't get me wrong though, low doses are still plenty recreational despite the lack of visuals, to the extent that I wouldn't expect any "therapy" or anything else serious to occur, say, 8 trips out of 10.
Also, if your into science/medicine [EDIT: also psychedelics+depression] at all you should find this video interesting. It's a lecture about how psilocin works in the brain. I'm not sure whether it would have meant all that much to me if I watched it without any prior experience with psychedelics, but having tripped a few times it explained a lot to me about how psychedelics can break down mental barriers the way they do.
For me, the most (or come to think of it, only) theraputic experiences have been at threshold doses (e.g. 8-15mg psilacetin fumarate). At this sort of dose, the primary effects are sedation and euphoria, with visual disturbances being more like a side effect, often only present during the first 10-30 minutes of the peak or sometimes not at all. The best way I can describe the theraputic effects of such a threashold dose is that it helps dissolve all the assumptions and preconceptions you build up during the course of everyday life, making it easier, for me at least, to identify what I really want/need out of life rather than what I think society wants of me or what makes my wallet fatter or whatever. I guess you could even define it as a sort of nootropic, but specifically targeted towards introspection etc. rather than cognition in general. Don't get me wrong though, low doses are still plenty recreational despite the lack of visuals, to the extent that I wouldn't expect any "therapy" or anything else serious to occur, say, 8 trips out of 10.
Also, if your into science/medicine [EDIT: also psychedelics+depression] at all you should find this video interesting. It's a lecture about how psilocin works in the brain. I'm not sure whether it would have meant all that much to me if I watched it without any prior experience with psychedelics, but having tripped a few times it explained a lot to me about how psychedelics can break down mental barriers the way they do.
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Shimmerchasm
Greenlighter
What I really mean is that psychedelics could provide me with a tool to improve my own life in conjunction with meditation and journaling and whatever else might help.
Im really interested in the sense of openness that people say they gain after using psychedelics, or maybe this is exclusive to mushrooms, idk. I had such bad social anxiety and self esteem issues for so long, and now that I'm not socially anxious at all I feel like I'm not even sure how to communicate and connect with the people I'd like to. This really hit me when I went to my local indie cinema to see Ram Dass: Fierce Grace and there was a discussion afterward. I had SO MUCH to contribute to the conversation but I just didn't have to guts to do it. I'm not even sure what it is I'm afraid of.
Im really interested in the sense of openness that people say they gain after using psychedelics, or maybe this is exclusive to mushrooms, idk. I had such bad social anxiety and self esteem issues for so long, and now that I'm not socially anxious at all I feel like I'm not even sure how to communicate and connect with the people I'd like to. This really hit me when I went to my local indie cinema to see Ram Dass: Fierce Grace and there was a discussion afterward. I had SO MUCH to contribute to the conversation but I just didn't have to guts to do it. I'm not even sure what it is I'm afraid of.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Psychedelics do indeed have the potential to provide you with the tools to help deal with the things you're mentioning. Some people don't have that experience with them but I'd say probably most do who have the kind of mind and intent as you seem to. Many, many people have used psychedelics successfully to help them work through their issues, they've even been used in therapy for that reason (sadly not nearly enough due to stigma/illegality that developed). Some people are sure to tell you they won't help but I think they're a perfectly valid and reasonable choice of tool, provided you prepare yourself and do your research (which you are).
pmoseman
Bluelighter
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/wordlist/emotions.shtml
It probably wasn't fear then.
It probably wasn't fear then.
letherman
Bluelighter
As someone who never tried psychedelics until last year, mainly because my friends advised me that I wasnt in the right mental place until then, I have to say that it has helped me become a much better person, but it was really hard year (I'm 44 now). It was only after I was offered some LSD and it went missing and I said "well it wasn't meant to be" without getting upset that suddenly 3 of my mates offered it.
It helped me face up to who I was, to see the demons inside me and face a lot of my issues and I have to be truthful and say I broke down about 3 times between last May during which time I only did a small amount of PD on 2 occasions. Most of the issues I had I did not see and constantly blamed others for my shortgivings (Hindsight is a beach!) The only way I got through it was by having a close circle of friends who "understood" what I was going through, sometimes being there for me, and other times leaving me to dig myself out of the hole on myself and to believe in myself being able to figure things out (which was the hardest for me). I've learnt to be able to spend time with myself and enjoy my own company, most of the time and now need to learn to meditate so I'm kind of the opposite to you.
My advice is to have a sober sitter with you, who has done psychedelics before, somewhere that you are very comfortable. It also helps to have someone doing it with you so you can see others who are not freaking out and who can judge the strength of what youre taking, but not a "here have more" sort of person. Have a small dose and only one dose until the next day. It can creep up on you over time, especially as you start to relax, because if you chase it, chances are nothing will happen (my first trip on LSD was 1/2 a weak stamp, but kicked in after 3 hours when I was having a long overdue pee!!)
The next day see how it was... was it too intense, were you comfortable, would you do it again, and would you want it stronger. Learn from this, remembering its easier to add to the dosage than taking it out.... so if you want it stronger then start with the same dose and up it after a couple of hours, but dont over do it.
I started like this and was doing great until I binged a few times and thats when my "voyage" (or rollercoaster of emotions as I call it) started. I thought I wasnt ready at that stage to face my demons, in fact I thought I had already fixed myself, but I hadnt, I had so much to learn about myself and am still learning, although back taking PD in moderation again...
and if for any reason it doesnt feel right beforehand, then dont do it...
Hope this helps.
It helped me face up to who I was, to see the demons inside me and face a lot of my issues and I have to be truthful and say I broke down about 3 times between last May during which time I only did a small amount of PD on 2 occasions. Most of the issues I had I did not see and constantly blamed others for my shortgivings (Hindsight is a beach!) The only way I got through it was by having a close circle of friends who "understood" what I was going through, sometimes being there for me, and other times leaving me to dig myself out of the hole on myself and to believe in myself being able to figure things out (which was the hardest for me). I've learnt to be able to spend time with myself and enjoy my own company, most of the time and now need to learn to meditate so I'm kind of the opposite to you.
My advice is to have a sober sitter with you, who has done psychedelics before, somewhere that you are very comfortable. It also helps to have someone doing it with you so you can see others who are not freaking out and who can judge the strength of what youre taking, but not a "here have more" sort of person. Have a small dose and only one dose until the next day. It can creep up on you over time, especially as you start to relax, because if you chase it, chances are nothing will happen (my first trip on LSD was 1/2 a weak stamp, but kicked in after 3 hours when I was having a long overdue pee!!)
The next day see how it was... was it too intense, were you comfortable, would you do it again, and would you want it stronger. Learn from this, remembering its easier to add to the dosage than taking it out.... so if you want it stronger then start with the same dose and up it after a couple of hours, but dont over do it.
I started like this and was doing great until I binged a few times and thats when my "voyage" (or rollercoaster of emotions as I call it) started. I thought I wasnt ready at that stage to face my demons, in fact I thought I had already fixed myself, but I hadnt, I had so much to learn about myself and am still learning, although back taking PD in moderation again...
and if for any reason it doesnt feel right beforehand, then dont do it...
Hope this helps.
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Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I've paid a price before, but for the most part I agree with you Ismene. It's almost like you pay the toll up front in the form of the come-up and afterwards you feel better than before. I only get come-downs or anything resembling a negative aftereffect from a few psychedelics that are not the classics, or from abuse.
GreenMachine
Bluelighter
psychedelics are not a cure, but they may be able to show you parts of yourself you werent able to see quite as clearly before. you might be able to get a glimpse of ways to do things better. give a man a fish, teach a man to fish and all that.
you know yourself better than we do, so you are the best judge. if you think your head is on straight enough to handle it, that you are open minded enough and you have the ability to let go (the most important part in my experience), then perhaps you should give it a try. its always best to take the safest route, maybe not go full-bore into things at first, but you dont want to undershoot the experience you are looking for either. try to have a sitter--someone sober, or not tripping, to help you and ground you in reality when you need it. trust me--if all of a sudden you get the urge to go to a park or the woods and need someone to drive, it is such a godsend to have that available. i find tripping with 2-3 other people is the best. some people prefer tripping alone, it all comes down to preference.
keep on meditating. the state you get into after the peak of a trip is not totally unlike a meditative state, but more lasting. meditating will help you train your mind to "let go". sometimes trips can get scary, you can get anxious, especially on the come up of a higher dose. having the ability to let go can be the difference between an easy, free-flowing trip, and a difficult, anxious one.
whatever you decide, make sure you know what you are getting, test it with a testing kit if possible--they are available online. try to research as much as possible on here as well as erowid. try to get a sitter, be safe and most importantly have fun!
you know yourself better than we do, so you are the best judge. if you think your head is on straight enough to handle it, that you are open minded enough and you have the ability to let go (the most important part in my experience), then perhaps you should give it a try. its always best to take the safest route, maybe not go full-bore into things at first, but you dont want to undershoot the experience you are looking for either. try to have a sitter--someone sober, or not tripping, to help you and ground you in reality when you need it. trust me--if all of a sudden you get the urge to go to a park or the woods and need someone to drive, it is such a godsend to have that available. i find tripping with 2-3 other people is the best. some people prefer tripping alone, it all comes down to preference.
keep on meditating. the state you get into after the peak of a trip is not totally unlike a meditative state, but more lasting. meditating will help you train your mind to "let go". sometimes trips can get scary, you can get anxious, especially on the come up of a higher dose. having the ability to let go can be the difference between an easy, free-flowing trip, and a difficult, anxious one.
whatever you decide, make sure you know what you are getting, test it with a testing kit if possible--they are available online. try to research as much as possible on here as well as erowid. try to get a sitter, be safe and most importantly have fun!
pmoseman
Bluelighter
Continuing on from ^
Meditating has many paths that run counter with one another.
Psilocybin shows you what your mind does to filter perception of reality. That is an important distinction in my opinion.
Some of the things you experience might shock you.
Meditating has many paths that run counter with one another.
Psilocybin shows you what your mind does to filter perception of reality. That is an important distinction in my opinion.
Some of the things you experience might shock you.
I've never found meditation helped depression in any way whatsoever tho green. Just does absolutely fuck-all for me while mushrooms made life worth living again. I couldn't call them similar myself.
give a man a fish, teach a man to fish and all that.
Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish, he's a grown-ass man and fishing isn't that fucking hard
swilow
Bluelight Crew
^Oddly enough though, meditation requires practise before its truly effective at anything. Its a worthwhile skill to try and attain, despite the emphasis of many meditational practises on removing desires. Given the common quandary in modern humans of busy lives with no time for self-improvement, meditation is ideal yet antithetical to much of our modern ideology. Its certainly worthy of practise and can truly have extremely positive effects. I found that being actively taught to meditate (I live near a Buddhist temple that hold "free" meditation nights each Monday) has really enhanced my ability to meditate and increased the benefits of it. I always meditate once a day, usually in the evenings, though I am trying to inspire myself to meditate in the mornings too. I believe that I will do that, because my life has significantly improved since I learned and practised my meditation.
Mushrooms, on the other hand, require no effort at all to eat.
Mushrooms, on the other hand, require no effort at all to eat.