I'm trans-racial.

[ForEverAfter]

Hold on a second.
I don't agree with your definition... And I'm a man, so there must be something wrong.

Men tend to behave more agressively than females. The have a much quicker tendency to physically fight. Men tend to be less compasionate than women. They are less likely to talk about their feelings. They are more competitive. They typically place a higher value on physical strength.

1. Men are more aggressive because (historically) they have been soldiers and (chemically) they have more testosterone. Beyond history and chemistry, I don't agree with what you're saying. I know a lot of passive men and I know a lot of aggressive women... are they any less men / women, because they fail to live up to your definition of what it is to be a man or a woman?

2. Saying that women are more compassionate and like to "talk about their feelings" is sexist / anti-feminist. Again, perhaps women have behaved this way because (historically) they have raised children and (chemically) they have more estrogen... I know a lot of men who are just as compassionate as any woman I've ever met... And men, although repressed by history, are now free to "talk about their feelings".

3. As far as men being more competitive, like I said earlier, they have (historically) been the soldiers and the breadwinners. This is changing. I don't think women are inherently any less competitive than men.

4. Men are physically stronger, because (historically) we've been the soldiers and the laborers, but I don't think that men place a higher value on strength... Girls tend to care more about guys having muscles than guys do.

...

You appear to have a pretty sexist / archaic view of men and women.
The stereotypical male and the stereotypical female are fading.

I know you're really keen on hearing my definition of what it means (beyond physicality) to be Laotian, but just bear with me here.

Answer these questions:

1. Is a passive man less of a man than an aggressive man?
Is an aggressive woman less of a woman than a passive woman?

2. Is a compassionate man less of a man?
Is a compassionate woman more of a woman?

3. Is a competitive man, more of a man?
Is a competitive woman, less of a woman?

4. Is a man that values physical strength more of a man?
Is a woman that values physical strength less of a woman?

You say physical attributes don't make a woman a woman.
So physical traits shouldn't make an Asian an Asian according to your comparison.

I never said physical traits (alone) make an Asian an Asian, did I?

Buddy, if you feel male and female doesn't exist
where does that leave you with your trans-racial trans-gender comparison?

I never said male and female don't exist.
I said they're extremely difficult to define (in terms of behavior), which you have confirmed.

 

[Ninae]

Let's not insult each other.
Words like pathetic are divisive and unnecessary.



People have a tendency to associate themselves with positive "points of consciousness" and dissociate themselves from the negative. You mentioned your past life as a dancer, for example, whereas it's relatively uncommon for (Western) people to refer to past lives as murderers or rapists or cockroaches.

There's no point in adhering partially to re-incarnation, as it suits you. The system implies that you are one with God / the universe... And, although you feel a connection to a particular event in the infinite non-linear timeline, you are actually everyone and everything... Aren't you?

By "points of consciousness" I meant other consciousnesses outside of myself, not times or states of consciousness.

Anyway, people can be more or less separate, and people who are more separate might like to bully and give others a hard time as the contrast makes them feel better. But when someone has reached a certain degree of unity or oneness consciousness this is not really possible any more as it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Most have lived all sorts of lives, both ordinary and extraordinary. But people aren't really interested in hearing about your ordinary lives.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I think people do want to hear about your "ordinary" lives, though... and it is humbling (on a personal level) to associate yourself with them... Furthermore: on paper it might appear to be quite easy to differentiate between the ordinary and the extraordinary, but I'm not sure that either objectively exist..

Somebody said recently, in another thread, that they had a lot of respect for Stephen Hawking. This struck me as odd. Why have more respect for a genius, than a fool? Stephen Hawking's life is no more or less interesting than yours or mine. His relationships are just relationships. His bowel movements are just bowel movements. Outside of his contributions to theoretical physics, his life is quite ordinary. (Maybe that's why his recent biopic was generally regarded to be rather underwhelming.)

Tell me about some of the ordinary past lives you've had.
You've mentioned, in other threads, extraordinary past lives.
I'd like to know about the "ordinary" ones. Humor me.

I'd also like to know about the sins of your past lives.
What is the "worst" thing you've done, throughout the past-lives that you have reconnected with?
What is the "best" thing you've done?

(I don't think re-incarnation should be used as a means to pat yourself on the back.)

 

[methamaniac]

Hold on.......

No bro, I'm not holding on anymore.
I'm calling you out.
You don't have to give us your description of what it means to you to be Asian, but you are going to lose serious cred points if you don't.
If you can't even ATTEMPT to describe what it means to be Asian than you are proving you have no idea what you mean when you say you are "Asian".
The man vs woman debate is secondary.
We can get back to the man and woman discussion after we get a better understanding of what you mean by being Asian.

I never said physical traits (alone) make an Asian an Asian, did I?

So physicallly traits are included in your definition?
Apparently yes, because you visualize yourself with Asian physical characteristics

 

[ForEverAfter]

Um... why would you have to have been a Caucasian trapped in a Laotian body?

I assumed by suggesting past-lives, that you meant something had gone wrong... and that I was in the wrong vessel.
Which lead me to think that someone must be in the vessel that I was intended for.
I guess it just made sense that we'd been "switched" somehow.

And yes, maybe transgenders ARE cross-wired because of past lives - if you had spent the last 15 lives as a woman and get born as a male, don't you think there may be some confusion?

So you're saying that transgendered people are just confused?

...

(I wouldn't assume any confusion, no... Because most people aren't consciously aware of their past lives.)

And you'd also have to take into account the odd genetics for transgenders - XXY's are not that uncommon and XY's with a female body can happen for a variety of reasons - it's one reason why Genesis is wrong - the default human body is female, not male. It takes testosterone to make a male and if that fails you get an XY that has females attributes.

First of all, Genesis is not commenting about our chromosomal make-up.
I've said this to you before. You're taking the passage about woman being formed from man too literally.
It is (obviously) not a commentary about what happens in the womb.
For the sake of argument, though, you're actually wrong.
Sperm are gender-specific.
It is the sperm, generally, that defines whether a baby (before it has developed nipples) will be male or female.
Eggs are genderless... So, if you're going to literally dissect Genesis and hold it up to modern scientific standards, technically all women are formed from man.

Secondly, transgendered people do not - necessarily - have lower T-levels or chromosomal issues.
That is not a prerequisite towards being recognized as transgendered, or qualifying for surgeries. Nor are the things psood0nym mentioned.
In other words: although there is - in some cases - a (potential) biological explanation, there isn't generally.

 

[ForEverAfter]

No bro, I'm not holding on anymore.
I'm calling you out.
You don't have to give us your description of what it means to you to be Asian, but you are going to lose serious cred points if you don't.
If you can't even ATTEMPT to describe what it means to be Asian than you are proving you have no idea what you mean when you say you are "Asian".
The man vs woman debate is secondary.
We can get back to the man and woman discussion after we get a better understanding of what you mean by being Asain.

You're trying to disprove trans-racialism by demanding a definition of something that cannot be defined, so you can pick it apart.
Until you successfully define what it is to be a man, beyond physicality, then I don't understand how you expect me to do so.
I suspect that you don't expect me to do so and that you're just waiting to pounce on my inability to define what it means to be Asian.
But, until you define what it means to be a man, that is just hypocrisy. You have double standards.

Do you corner trans-gendered people and demand that they succinctly define what it means to be a man trapped in a woman's body, or vice-versa?
Or is this reserved for me, simply because my disorder isn't socially acceptable?

So (physical) traits are included in your definition?
Apparently yes, because you visualize yourself with Asian physical characteristics

Obviously there is a physical element to race.
Doesn't a transgendered person "visualize (themselves) with (the opposite gender's) physical characteristics" also?

...

Answer these questions:

1. Is a passive man less of a man than an aggressive man?
Is an aggressive woman less of a woman than a passive woman?

2. Is a compassionate man less of a man?
Is a compassionate woman more of a woman?

3. Is a competitive man, more of a man?
Is a competitive woman, less of a woman?

4. Is a man that values physical strength more of a man?
Is a woman that values physical strength less of a woman?

 

[Ninae]

I don't know what the worst things I've done are. I know I spent a long time incarnating into more shielded lives or environments where I would mostly be performing some type of spiritual service and not really living what is associated with a typical human life. But I think that was before some kind of consciousness fall.

I incarnated into that Indian temple-dancer society for many lifetimes. It was also a very shielded kind of life where we were raised from birth to be very pure, were given mostly fruits, vegetables, and nuts to eat and also weren't allowed to see any men. This went well for many lifetimes until one life I started talking to a delivery boy, and fell in love with him, so I escaped in the night to get married.

After that I started having more ordinary Indian lives where I had a lot of work to do with raising children and doing all the housework for my own family and my husband's family. I would also have lives where I was wealthy and had servants, etc. but I also had many ordinary, poor lives where I would struggle. I also had one lifetime where I was part of a Persian harem, and that was another shielded lifetime, as in those countries it's actually a protection for women to be in a harem. It was a very noble emperor I had, I was fond of him, and we all had something artistic we could do. Some could sing and some could dance, but in that life I was knitting rugs, artistic picture rugs.

Then I had a life where I was born into a poor Pakistan family who sold me to a manufacturer of Persian rugs when I was a little girl and had to spend all my life as slave labour sitting on a floor knitting rugs all day long. I didn't have much happiness in that life. But I was being uncinciously used as a channel for the light and weaved light into those rugs so the people who bought them would have more light in their homes.

Then after all that time in the East I came to Europe, where I also had some lives as a servant girl, as most were poor at the time. There was one life where I came to serve in a family as a young child, and at first I was working hard scrubbing pots and pans in the kitchen, but the people I was with discovered I had delicate hands and was more artistic so they let me come upstairs to do finer forms of work and become a kind of playmate to the children in the house I was in. So I was happy with that, as I'm not so good for work, I'm more for joy.

 

[methamaniac]

I have defined/described what I think it means to be a man.
You don't have to accept my description.
You said you would define what it means to you to be Asian once I did.
You are not honoring your word.
Someone who doesn't honor their word tells me a lot more about them than race or gender.
Thanks for the info.

Obviously there is a physical element to race.
Doesn't a transgendered person "visualize (themselves) with (the opposite genders') physical characteristics?

So you only feel what the physical characteristics of an Asian are?
What are those and what do they feel like in your mind?

 

[ForEverAfter]

So you only feel what the physical characteristics of an Asian are?
What are those and what do they feel like in your mind?

I will answer your questions if you answer mine.

1. Is a passive man less of a man than an aggressive man?
Is an aggressive woman less of a woman than a passive woman?

2. Is a compassionate man less of a man?
Is a compassionate woman more of a woman?

3. Is a competitive man, more of a man?
Is a competitive woman, less of a woman?

4. Is a man that values physical strength more of a man?
Is a woman that values physical strength less of a woman?

...

Why are you avoiding answering these questions?
It shouldn't take long.

You are not honoring your word.
Someone who doesn't honor their word tells me a lot more about them than race or gender.

Unless your answer is yes to all eight questions, you haven't defined man beyond physicality.
So, I'm not dishonoring anything am I?

Prove me wrong. Answer yes to all the questions.
Or admit that your definition is wrong.
If your definition is wrong, redefine man beyond physicality.
Until you have done so, you haven't "honored" your side.

I asked you to define man beyond physicality before I defined Asian beyond physicality, because both are impossible.
Attempting and failing to define man just proves my point.

You're clearly trying to avoid falling into (what you misguidedly think is) your own trap.

Please don't stoop to discredit me, by labeling me dishonorable.

 

[methamaniac]

Do you corner trans-gendered people and demand that they succinctly define what it means to be a man trapped in a woman's body, or vice-versa?
Or is this reserved for me, simply because my disorder isn't socially acceptable

Seems you are the trying to corner someone, but you have only backed yourself into one.

Don't be a dick

Respectfully sir,
Don't be a pussy
Honor your word

 

[ForEverAfter]

I edited the above.
Read it.

Seems you are the trying to corner someone, but you have only backed yourself into one.

You've cornered yourself.

If not, prove me wrong.
Answer the questions.
What are you afraid of?
Just humor me, will you?

1. Is a passive man less of a man than an aggressive man?
Is an aggressive woman less of a woman than a passive woman?

2. Is a compassionate man less of a man?
Is a compassionate woman more of a woman?

3. Is a competitive man, more of a man?
Is a competitive woman, less of a woman?

4. Is a man that values physical strength more of a man?
Is a woman that values physical strength less of a woman?

Don't be a pussy

Take your own advice and answer the scary questions.

I have defined/described what I think it means to be a man.
You don't have to accept my description.

No, but it has to hold up to some level of scrutiny doesn't it?
You need to be able to explain your definition to the satisfaction of others.
Otherwise you could have just mashed your face into the keyboard and posted that.
(Which you might as well have done.)

If it doesn't have to hold up or make any sense, here's my definition of Asian:
gythk, tr

...

(I've never mashed my face into a keyboard before. It hurt more than I expected.)

 

[methamaniac]

Yes to all questions.......
Finally time for your definition.
This should be good

Ps, you shouldn't have to delete things you say in a post. Stand behind your convictions

 

[ForEverAfter]

You're trying to discredit me (again) because I edit posts, even though you edit posts all the time?
(You did the same thing in the evolution thread, months ago.)

Yes to all questions.......

You're either lying or you're very sexist. (I think it's a bit of both.)
Why are you refusing to answer the questions, honestly? (You're cheating.)

Was Ghandi a woman?
Or was he just less of a man than you are?
How do you measure a man, or a woman?
Am I less of a man than you are, too?

Finally time for your definition.

I posted it in the edit, above.

Here it is:

gythk, tr

If you have any questions, let me know.

...

As I said, before, I'll answer your questions now that you've done me the courtesy of answering mine.

So you only feel what the physical characteristics of an Asian are?
What are those and what do they feel like in your mind?

I didn't say or imply that I only feel physically incorrect.
When I look in the mirror, I don't see the correct body / vessel.

It's exactly the same as a trans-gendered person.
They look at their genitals and see a mismatch.
Similarly, I look at my skin / eye / hair color and see a mismatch.
(I've already said all of this.)

 

[methamaniac]

Again, you're trying to discredit me because I edit posts even though you edit posts all the time?

NO,
I am saying if your going to call me a "dick",
it's ok just stand behind it by not deleting it.

You're either lying or you're very sexist.

If indeed I am sexist that makes you unhonorable now doesn't it?
Actually, I am not sexist and can explain why.
My answers still remain yes.
Now, I am not answering anymore of your questions until you explain at least generally what it means to you to be Asian.
I'll be waiting for your reply.
I have a feeling I might be waiting a while tho.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I am saying if your going to call me a "dick",
it's ok just stand behind it by not deleting it.

I didn't want to stoop to that level. I regretted posting that.
It doesn't aid discussion to mock, insult or discredit others.
What I wrote was wrong, so I changed it.

You say that I "shouldn't have to delete things (I) say in a post", but I've seen you do it dozens of times.
So, what, the rules don't apply to you? ... Or, should I point out every time you edit something?

If indeed I am sexist that makes you (dis)honorable now doesn't it?

No...? (I don't understand the logic.)

Actually, I am not sexist and can explain why.

But, you're not going to?

(Maybe, just maybe, you can't explain why.
If so, please do. Otherwise don't say you can.)

I am not answering anymore of your questions until you explain at least generally what it means to you to be Asian.
I'll be waiting for cor your reply.

I've already attempted to explain it.
That's all I have to do, right?

Here is my explanation, again:

gythk, tr

If you have any questions, let me know.

 

[methamaniac]

I didn't want to stoop to that level. I regretted posting that.
It doesn't aid discussion to mock, insult or discredit others.
What I wrote was wrong, so I changed it.

It's ok

You say that I "shouldn't have to delete things (I) say in a post", but I've seen you do it dozens of times.

I changed wording in my post but not in that context.
If I call you a dick I mean it.

No...? (I don't understand the logic)

If I did indeed answer questions truthfully and you think I am sexist for it I still answered.
where is your definition of what it means to you to be Asian?
understand the logic now?

ghtky, tr

TOTAL THREAD FAIL

 

[swilow]

This is pseudo intellectual flagellation. You introduced a concept and demand that we define it. Sounds childish but u started this. No one here truly cares how u identify yourself except you. Don't pretend anyone is being offensive as much as trying to explore this topic with you. I don't get what u mean by Asian and nor do you. What's the point?

 

[ForEverAfter]

It's ok

No, it's not. (Regardless of your approval.)
I'd like to train myself to be a better person.
It isn't the end of the world, obviously, but it doesn't achieve anything.

I changed wording in my post but not in that context.
If I call you a dick I mean it.

So you decide when people should edit and when they shouldn't?
When you edit, it's justified... but when I edit, it isn't?
Congratulations.

If I did indeed answer questions truthfully and you think I am sexist for it I still answered.

You didn't answer the questions honestly. You're cheating.
Technically you gave me an answer, yes.
But your answers were bullshit.

Technically, I gave you a response.

ghtky, tr

TOTAL THREAD FAIL

I'm not sure how I failed.
If you have any questions regarding my response, I'm happy to field them... Fire away.

...

Or we could skip this silly little game and you could honestly answer the questions.

 

[ForEverAfter]

willow,

I came out as trans-racial, for the first time in my life. It wasn't an easy thing to do.
I just wanted to feel free enough, finally, to talk about this issue.
Ideally, I would have liked a bit of support.

You introduced a concept and demand that we define it. Sounds childish but u started this.

I didn't demand any such thing. Numerous people demanded that I explain what it means to be Asian, but I don't see how that's any different from demanding a trans-gender person explain what it means to be a particular gender... I feel like I would've received more support if I'd come out as trans-gender, and that's not fair. is it?

No one here truly cares how u identify yourself except you.

I don't want you to care. I want you to accept me, for who I am.

Don't pretend anyone is being offensive as much as trying to explore this topic with you.

The way meth defined men and women was potentially offensive. Not to me, but to a lot of men and women.

I don't get what u mean by Asian and nor do you.

Yes, I do. I just cannot (at this stage) explain it.
Do you insist that trans-gendered people define what it means to be male/female?
Does society? If not, why not? What's the difference?

What's the point?

Initially I wanted a bit of support, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen.

 

[methamaniac]

You win, I forfeit on the basis of retaining my sanity.
I'm suddenly reminded of a quote by Mark Twain

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experince"

I'm not saying your ignorant in general, but you are about to the point of this thread.