Opioids I'm now 100% certain MMT dulls other drugs

[Cotillion]

Im not sure if this is common knowledge but it's news to me so I figured I would share. I've been on MMT for about 2 years. About 6 months into it I bought a gram of MDMA to party with my wife and her friends since I don't like drinking. I ended up taking 9/10ths of it over 4 hours and I never peaked. I swallowed and snorted it. It was an odd feeling, I had all the twitches and odd things I do when I'm rolling and eye flutters but my body didn't feel good like it normally does. Infact I didn't really wanna be touched at all.

The next drug came into play about 6 months ago when I picked up a ball of cocaine. Good quality stuff, everyone else who did it had a blast, it normally makes me chatty but this time I had no euphoria. Not even the weak coke euphoric feeling. I still do a lot of coke in the past 6 months from a new dealer now with great quality gear, but aside from some numbness and focusing longer than normal not much else is to be had from it. I can slam down almost 2 grams through my nose and fall asleep in seconds!

So last night was the kicker for me. I work graveyards alone so I thought I'd get some glass and take some small pokes to geek out. It's been over 10 years since I last tweaked. I started off with 1/10th of a gram orally. Waited 30 minutes and nothing. So then I weighed out .3 more and crushed it up ( i over prep because people do come by from time to time ) and snorted half. So I was awake now, a little chatty but nothing to major. I thought I'd give it some time, maybe the bomb would kick in. An hour goes by and I'm ready for a nap! Now I'm only 3 hours from my shift ending and really don't wanna go home tweakin in front of my family but can't crash at work either so I snorted the other half of the .3. Again, I'm awake but nothing special. I left work an hour early, swung by the methadone clinic, dosed and passed out exactly 3 hours after taking that last bump. So 4/10 of a gram was about on par with a monster energy drink and a 5 hour energy combo. As for the ice quality it was straight shards, no crumb cut. My friend who got it for me said the guy always has bomb and when I called him 10 minutes ago he said he hasn't slept and still has a lot left. Crazy stuff!

 

[rules]

i used to know a guy that had to shoot 7 bags at a time every day very numerous times. i always thought it was because his habit was just awful but he was on MMT for like a year...eh. not sure, really. i know for a fact very high doses of methadone does block opes but i've never heard of it blocking anything other than opiates.

 

[Cotillion]

Yeah I expected it with opiates but not with everything else. I wouldn't exactly call it blocking as much as I'd say it just dulls it down. Like its such a downer that it's hard to compete with since it's always in my body. I stopped feeling any effects from the done after about month 3 on MMT, I just feel the same morning noon and night. I'm sure if I banged a quarter of a gram to start I would have felt it harder, but I'm willing to bet it would still have worn off fast. I was trying to take it easy to not geek at work or when I get home so tonight I'll start off with what I split into a few doses all at once and see what happens

 

[Tchort]

Yeah I expected it with opiates but not with everything else. I wouldn't exactly call it blocking as much as I'd say it just dulls it down. Like its such a downer that it's hard to compete with since it's always in my body. I stopped feeling any effects from the done after about month 3 on MMT, I just feel the same morning noon and night. I'm sure if I banged a quarter of a gram to start I would have felt it harder, but I'm willing to bet it would still have worn off fast. I was trying to take it easy to not geek at work or when I get home so tonight I'll start off with what I split into a few doses all at once and see what happens

There is evidence that patients on MMT who consume stimulants 'enjoy them more', or have a bigger propensity for reinforced drug taking behavior.

Methadone had a significant overall effect on rotational behavior, although no single dose produced significant turning, and increased amphetamine-induced rotational behavior. A dose of 1.0 mg/kg produced effects greater than predicted by simple additivity. In the conditioned place preference paradigm, methadone enhanced the reinforcing properties of cocaine in rats (Bilsky et al., 1992). Similarly, in humans, cocaine use was greater in methadone-treated opioid addicts than in buprenorphine- or naltrexone-treated patients (Kosten et al., 1989). The discriminative stimulus effects of cocaine in squirrel monkeys were also enhanced by methadone (Spealman and Bergman, 1992, 1994). Thismu opioid agonist increases synaptic dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens (Di Chiara and Imperato, 1988b). The data in the present study concur with the findings that methadone enhances dopaminergic functions.

. . .

Based on the model of simple arithmetic additivity, dextrorphan, levorphanol, meperidine, methadone and morphine potentiated the effects of amphetamine on circling. Although this “effect-addition” model is not without limitations (Woolverton, 1987), it is a reasonable way to approach the question of drug synergy in the absence of more specific statistical methods. The fact that the mu opioid agonists often increased the effects of amphetamine at times when the opioid itself had little or no effect (e.g., during the second half of the 4-hr session in the case of most of the drugs, figs.4B, 5B, 6B, 7B, 8B) suggests a true synergy.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/282/2/734.full

The present study was conducted to determine whether methadone maintenance alters the pharmacodynamic effects of single doses of cocaine. Twenty-two current users of IV cocaine who were not seeking treatment for their illicit cocaine use participated while living on a research unit. Eleven were maintained on methadone 50 mg PO daily as treatment for their opioid abuse; 11 were opioid abusers who were not physically dependent on opioids and who provided opioid-free urines throughout the study. Each subject received acute cocaine challenge doses of 0, 12.5, 25, and 50 mg intravenously in random order under double-blind conditions in separate test sessions. Physiologic and subject-rated responses were measured before injection and for 2 h after. In the methadone maintenance group, cocaine challenge sessions occurred 15.5 h after the daily methadone dose. There were significant differences between the methadone-dependent and nondependent groups: 1) baseline differences related to chronic methadone administration and not associated with cocaine administration (lower respiration rates and pupil diameter; higher skin temperature) and 2) differences in response to cocaine administration; cocaine-induced increases in subject ratings of Drug Effect, Rush, Good Effects, Liking, and Desire for Cocaine and in heart rate were greater in the methadone maintenance patients compared to the non-dependent group. These results indicate that the positive subjective effects and some physiological effects of cocaine are enhanced in methadone-maintained individuals, suggesting a pharmacological basis for the high rates of cocaine abuse among methadone maintenance patients.

http://opioids.com/methadone/methcoke.html

I'm like you are though. While in MMT (just over 5 years, '06-'11) I attempted MDMA and it felt like a caffeine overload; the unpleasant side effect of amphetamines seemed more pronounced than pre-opioid dependency days, etc. The only stimulant that felt pleasurable while on MMT was Phendimetrazine (all of 2 uses though). Sounds like a lot of MMT patients get more out stimulants as a whole.

 

[Dr_Rolls_MD[MA]]

I've been on MMT for 9 years, but I'm currently weaning off it for good, finally. I agree with the OP. Methadone absolutely dulls other drugs, including stimulants.

Although I haven't done any drugs besides methadone for over 8 years now, I was occasionally doing them when I first started MMT. I tried smoking crack for the first time while on MMT. I used it about 4 times and I never had anything close to a euphoria from it. I honestly didn't understand why anyone would be addicted to it. I thought it was a joke. I know now it was the methadone.

Also, I tried doing amphetamines, and that was a joke too. I just got spaced out and stared at the wall for a couple hours. No big euphoria like the good ol' days. As far as mushrooms, I was reading up on whether or not methadone would effect the quality of a trip. Pretty much, the consensus was yes, it would. However, by taking more than normal, I was able to have an excellent trip. Actually, I seemed calmer and didn't get anxious like I had in the past. So, mushrooms are the only drug I tried while on methadone that I actually enjoyed.

I'm working on getting off MMT and abstaining from drugs. However, I probably will do psychedelics because they have nothing to do with addiction and drug abuse. I'm interested to see what its like to do them again without methadone.

 

[hamwaggle]

My guess is that this is more of a dopamine issue. Methadone and other analgesics release large amounts of dopamine in the brain, thus causing your brain to try and slow down the release of dopamine, so when you take something like MDMA (which again relies heavily on the release of dopamine to give you that happy euphoric feeling) your brain just doesn't have that much dopamine to release. That would be my guess and not that it's physiologically blocking other drugs. Dopamine is release in massive amounts with almost all addictive drugs.

 

[Cotillion]

Ham- that would be my theory as well. It actually makes plenty of sense now that I look at it that way. It's so hard to explain the lame feeling I had on MDMA, imagine all the goofy, teeth grinding, funky moaning and movements but without everything feeling good so as the night goes on you actually feel the pain in your mouth lol. Or coke which I put to the test today with a friend who can hold his own when it comes to drugs, he tried matching my coke intake line for line and within a very short time he was comatosed and wouldn't take more for fear of OD, meanwhile I'm chopping up my next batch before I fall asleep. Now that I think of it that's actually scary and I need to stop doing blow until I'm off MMT. Just because I'm not crazy high doesn't mean I'm not close to a possible overdose correct?

Another question that this brings up is perhaps this is why MMT patients typically feel numb to everything. If drugs can't even push out dopamine how are normal daily activities supposed to?

 

[Tchort]

Now that I think of it that's actually scary and I need to stop doing blow until I'm off MMT. Just because I'm not crazy high doesn't mean I'm not close to a possible overdose correct?

Another question that this brings up is perhaps this is why MMT patients typically feel numb to everything. If drugs can't even push out dopamine how are normal daily activities supposed to?

It is certainly possible. Generally the combination of Cocaine and opioids is dangerous in the other direction; the blow masks symptoms of an overdose of narcotics until the coke wears off and the opioids put you down. It makes sense that it would work the other way as well- why risk a possibly fatal Cocaine overdose if it isn't really doing anything for you to begin with?

This study suggests long-term opioid use (specifically Methadone) does significantly alter the brains Dopamine-related functions (which persist after a complete detox, and only 'get fixed' after lengthy abstinence from all opioids):

Our findings suggest that chronic opioid use induces long-lasting striatum dopamine neuron impairment, and prolonged withdrawal from opioids can benefit the recovery of impaired dopamine neurons in the brain.

http://www.mendeley.com/research/te...elective-mixed-monoaminergic-antidepressants/