If Jesus died for our sins...

[alasdairm]

If anyone is implying all those religious people aren't having spiritual experiences because they don't line up with their own definition of spirituality, they are misguided.

i don't see anybody saying that.

crudely put, most religion is spiritual but not all spirituality is religious.

alasdair

 

[His Name Is Frank]

...doesn't that mean it's fine - even good - for us to sin?
If we don't sin then he died for nothing.

If Jesus died for our sins, then he died a pointless death. It's all so ritualistic, that god, the supposed creator of everything, requires a death in order for people to be forgiven and come to him. What of all of the millions who died before christ was even "alive". Did they just sit in hell for thousands upon thousands of years, thinking they'd be there for all eternity? Did any of them even get a second chance? According to the bible, he didn't even die for our sins. He died so that we may be forgiven of our sins, if we allow him into our heart and or butt. It's stupid.

If the bible were fact, it would mean that god is VERY fallible, that he created Lucifer, knowing that Lucifer would rebel and that sin would become like a virus on this earth. He knows the fate of every person, thousands of years before they're even born, and the suffering they will endure. The only other possible explanation would be that god, if he did exist, is completely clueless as to what will happen, and is constantly letting shit fuck up without intervening. If he does know and doesn't intervene when say a child has cancer, or an infant is being abused, then god's a bigger piece of shit that every living, breathing, bleeding evil that has walked this earth...combined.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Morality and religion and law are pretty dicey subjects. Religion addresses morality i.e. the golden rule. Law definitely addresses morality i.e. malum in prohibum means things that are wrong because they are prohibited vs. malum in se means things that are wrong because they are inherently bad. I listened to a presentation on detection of bias, our conscious and unconscious biases, perception biases, etc., a few months ago. I think a lot of problems related to injustice are a product of bias and prejudice, and those who exploit them. That and corruption.

 

[swilow]

It's easy to say religion is accountable, but until we accept that human nature is flawed and at the heart of many of our troubles, we'll just keep outsourcing the responsibility onto external factors, and we'll never change.

No doubt. Our evolutionary history has given us aggressive and territorial impulses that will probably always manifest in some form. I dont see that as a flaw, it's just a fact of our psychology that we have no choice but to work with. A worthwhile system of ethics would try and negate the worst aspects of these instincts rather than either ignoring or compounding them as judeo-Christian morals do.

You just don't get the mixed and faulty morals of people that believe it is murder to use a blastocyst to harvest stem cells to potentially save millions but have no hesitation in condemning condom use in areas where millions are dying from AIDS. Or people trying to withhold the HPV vaccine because it may encourage premarital sex despite thousand of women dying each year from cervical cancer. Somehow, sexual morality is more important than whether people suffer and die. You just don't get this stuff without the pretext of religion and a divine God commanding you.

Be well

And you, mate ❤

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

If humanity can be so easily manipulated by a book, the book isn't the problem.

No, it's the gullible idiots who believe it as fact.

 

[swilow]

Religion addresses morality i.e. the golden rule.

Would it be fair to say that some religions do this better than others? Buddhism and other metaphysical belief systems like Jainism have much more layered and nuanced ideas about morality that seem applicable in many cultural contexts to the extent of being almost universal. They offer genuine solutions to moral questions, at least on some topics. Christianity and judeo-Christian faith in general offers very little in the way of moral guidance that has genuine utility in a modern context, and a lot of it is genuinely repulsive and would land you in jail if you did it. The fact that Jesus spoke of the golden rule doesn't particularly redeem the rest of the stuff and it's really not an original or groundbreaking idea. Again, the eastern religions like Buddhism enunciated it with much more depth and function.

I listened to a presentation on detection of bias, our conscious and unconscious biases, perception biases, etc., a few months ago. I think a lot of problems related to injustice are a product of bias and prejudice, and those who exploit them. That and corruption

I agree here. Humans can even discard facts and ideas that run against things they believe- our true beliefs are so ingrained and inclusive that they form a lot of what we absorb as our self-image and identity. It's hard to question any idea that forms a basis of the self. There is more risk than simply realising some ignorance. And I agree that people exploit these tendencies in us- to gain political and social power- as many religions have done. Not all religions, but many.

I am aware that I have biases against Christianity in particular, I was raised in a Catholic family and saw a lot of hypocrisy first-hand so it's important for me to factor that into my thinking. One of the things that bothers the fuck out of me is how deep the tentacles of these beliefs sink into a child's head. Despite all the reasoning I try, I still have an exaggerated sense of guilt and needing to redeem myself after fucking up. But my own experience wasn't bad or negative at all, just tedious and mystifying and then I just told my parents I wasn't going anymore.

No, it's the gullible idiots who believe it as fact.

I think anyone would believe something (or say they believe it) if the penalty for NOT was death and then eternal hell. You just take the easy route of doing the talking the talk and hoping God isn't real after all.

I often wonder if people really believe this stuff. You never see people cheering and celebrating at a Christian funeral despite apparently believing their loved one is now literally in paradise with God forever. And that you'll see them again. That is considered the absolute pinnacle goal of a human life, isn't it? ?

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Would it be fair to say that some religions do this better than others? Buddhism and other metaphysical belief systems like Jainism have much more layered and nuanced ideas about morality that seem applicable in many cultural contexts to the extent of being almost universal. They offer genuine solutions to moral questions, at least on some topics. Christianity and judeo-Christian faith in general offers very little in the way of moral guidance that has genuine utility in a modern context, and a lot of it is genuinely repulsive and would land you in jail if you did it. The fact that Jesus spoke of the golden rule doesn't particularly redeem the rest of the stuff and it's really not an original or groundbreaking idea. Again, the eastern religions like Buddhism enunciated it with much more depth and function.



I agree here. Humans can even discard facts and ideas that run against things they believe- our true beliefs are so ingrained and inclusive that they form a lot of what we absorb as our self-image and identity. It's hard to question any idea that forms a basis of the self. There is more risk than simply realising some ignorance. And I agree that people exploit these tendencies in us- to gain political and social power- as many religions have done. Not all religions, but many.

I am aware that I have biases against Christianity in particular, I was raised in a Catholic family and saw a lot of hypocrisy first-hand so it's important for me to factor that into my thinking. One of the things that bothers the fuck out of me is how deep the tentacles of these beliefs sink into a child's head. Despite all the reasoning I try, I still have an exaggerated sense of guilt and needing to redeem myself after fucking up. But my own experience wasn't bad or negative at all, just tedious and mystifying and then I just told my parents I wasn't going anymore.



I think anyone would believe something (or say they believe it) if the penalty for NOT was death and then eternal hell. You just take the easy route of doing the talking the talk and hoping God isn't real after all.

I often wonder if people really believe this stuff. You never see people cheering and celebrating at a Christian funeral despite apparently believing their loved one is now literally in paradise with God forever. And that you'll see them again. That is considered the absolute pinnacle goal of a human life, isn't it? ?

It's not the easy route, it's just common sense. If the penalty for not believing was death, I'd obviously lie and pretend I did. But the idea of their being a God is just so ridiculous nothing would convince me to believe.
The whole death thing is something people delude themselves with so they feel better imagining their loved one in a better place, rather than face the fact that they are just gone. Also, when they're scared of dying, it's easier to think "Oh, well, I'm going to Heaven so it's fine".
When you die just stop stop being. I would think it's exactly how you were before you were conceived.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

It's not the easy route, it's just common sense. If the penalty for not believing was death, I'd obviously lie and pretend I did. But the idea of their being a God is just so ridiculous nothing would convince me to believe.
The whole death thing is something people delude themselves with so they feel better imagining their loved one in a better place, rather than face the fact that they are just gone. Also, when they're scared of dying, it's easier to think "Oh, well, I'm going to Heaven so it's fine".
When you die just stop stop being. I would think it's exactly how you were before you were conceived.

How is the idea of God so ridiculuous to you?

Lets go through some thinking Sure our universe came from the big bang but what existed before that? why does anything exist the fact that we exist proves that nothingness has never existed in infinity. I believe your thinking of god is ruined due to the western christan concepts embedded in your mind.

God is not a all knowing good man up in the sky.

God is the contents of all of reality connected. God is infinite consciouneness and awareness that is "immortal" you could call it ultimate reality the universe whatever. What reality is infinite awareness in a infinite object infinity is beyond anything to understand you can only experince it on heroic dose lsd shrooms or breakthrough on dmt.

In a infinite reality there are many planes of existence completely different to ours where consciouness and awareness also exist. The point of reality is for infinity to comphrend infinity by exploring its infinite potential in every single way. Creation out of nothingness requires balance "duality"

When you die you might just very well stop existing no one acutally knows or we could be thrown into another dimension given the meaning of everything and sent on another "game" to experince the infinite reality in another form.

An athesit is the universes cosmic joke. To deny the immortal consciousness and infinite ultimate reality is to deny your own existence and your true underlying being and self.

 

[Xorkoth]

The world would be an unimaginably better place with no Religion. 99.9% of hatred would vanish.

I disagree. Religion is the excuse, not the reason, for hatred. Our problem rests in human nature itself.

If humanity can be so easily manipulated by a book, the book isn't the problem.

Exactly. We so easily create an US vs Them mentality. If it's not one thing, it's another. Religion just provides an easy means for the sociopathic power mongers in charge to justify the atrocity of war to steal resources. People need a reason to go to war, and religion provides one, and is generally the go-to. But there are other reasons. They're all bullshit, of course.

No, it's the gullible idiots who believe it as fact.

And therein lies the problem. Most people are eager to be told what to believe, because life is scary and intense and people seek meaning.

The problems are myriad, and religion is a symptom, not a source. In fact humans have always had spiritual/religious beliefs. We seek to understand how we are a part of something greater. Religion is inevitable. As far as they go, Christianity, in its ideal form, is quite a good one. It would be preferable if everyone came to their own personal conclusion, but most people desire to me told what to do. It's just the nature of humanity. Our curse.

 

[alasdairm]

Sure our universe came from the big bang but what existed before that?

nothing? not even time.

why is that idea so ridiculous to you?

God is the contents of all of reality connected. God is infinite consciouneness and awareness that is "immortal" you could call it ultimate reality the universe whatever.

to you.

To deny the immortal consciousness and infinite ultimate reality is to deny your own existence and your true underlying being and self.

maybe. maybe not.

alasdair

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

How is the idea of God so ridiculuous to you?

Lets go through some thinking Sure our universe came from the big bang but what existed before that? why does anything exist the fact that we exist proves that nothingness has never existed in infinity. I believe your thinking of god is ruined due to the western christan concepts embedded in your mind.

God is not a all knowing good man up in the sky.

God is the contents of all of reality connected. God is infinite consciouneness and awareness that is "immortal" you could call it ultimate reality the universe whatever. What reality is infinite awareness in a infinite object infinity is beyond anything to understand you can only experince it on heroic dose lsd shrooms or breakthrough on dmt.

In a infinite reality there are many planes of existence completely different to ours where consciouness and awareness also exist. The point of reality is for infinity to comphrend infinity by exploring its infinite potential in every single way. Creation out of nothingness requires balance "duality"

When you die you might just very well stop existing no one acutally knows or we could be thrown into another dimension given the meaning of everything and sent on another "game" to experince the infinite reality in another form.

An athesit is the universes cosmic joke. To deny the immortal consciousness and infinite ultimate reality is to deny your own existence and your true underlying being and self.

Because it's no different than believing that Santa Claus or Vampires are real.
That's because humans cannot imagine that fact that the Universe has ALWAYS existed and always will. Our brains just can't do it, just the same way we know that the Universe goes on (this time I'm talking space rather than time) forever with no end but we cannot imagine it. Think of it is trying to imagine an entirely new colour. Not one made from combining existing colours, but a totally unique new one. They ARE such colours out there, they just can't be seen by the human eye and we don't have the capacity to imagine them. This is why people use "God" as an easy answer for these things.

No, to ACCEPT immortal consciousness is a joke. EVERYTHING dies. Assuming you are any different and that you MUST be immortal is incredibly arrogant. Besides, even if you went to some other place you'd have no brain and therefor no mind and STILL wouldn't exist. You'd be brain dead, still.

Life is not a "game". When you die you do not reboot and go to a new "level". That's delusional.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Prayer and meditation sometimes are like place holders. They provide me a framework to keep some conscious part of me occupied while I try to get centered and figure out what I'm thinking and feeling, where I am and what I'm doing. Sometimes I just try to hang on (had many long nights with bp over 200 and alcohol WD). Its practical though I understand that existence is inherently cosmic.

Parts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are explicitly concerned with law and social control, that's the way the books were written, and there's no getting around it.

My wife is a pretty strict Catholic, no smoking, no drinking, no drugging, no cursing. I do my best to respect her and her beliefs, and I admire her more than words can tell. Not that I haven't complained long and loud in the past about what I think is false piety. For the most part though we just let things like that go these days. Its not a hill either us ever had any interest in dying on.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Because it's no different than believing that Santa Claus or Vampires are real.
That's because humans cannot imagine that fact that the Universe has ALWAYS existed and always will. Our brains just can't do it, just the same way we know that the Universe goes on (this time I'm talking space rather than time) forever with no end but we cannot imagine it. Think of it is trying to imagine an entirely new colour. Not one made from combining existing colours, but a totally unique new one. They ARE such colours out there, they just can't be seen by the human eye and we don't have the capacity to imagine them. This is why people use "God" as an easy answer for these things.

No, to ACCEPT immortal consciousness is a joke. EVERYTHING dies. Assuming you are any different and that you MUST be immortal is incredibly arrogant. Besides, even if you went to some other place you'd have no brain and therefor no mind and STILL wouldn't exist. You'd be brain dead, still.

Life is not a "game". When you die you do not reboot and go to a new "level". That's delusional.

you seem to miss the point. I am not immoratl consciouness. Reality is and so is the universe.

Nothing has ever existed else the universe would not exist. We can see the big bang the explosion of the infinite moment frozen in time leading to creation of all.

Quantum mechanics also proves atoms are aware of observation

The only thing that has ever existed is how something is beholded within consciouness. Consciouness is everything there is nothing outside it.

 

[Bagseed]

Quantum mechanics also proves atoms are aware of observation

actually this is not at all what quantum mechanics says... quantum systems, when interacting with each other, form a relationship that is called "entanglement", but this does not need a conscious obvserver nor "awareness". I wish some people would stop using concepts of physics when they seem to have no idea what they mean.

 

[KingOfWessex]

Fuck Jesus, he died cause he was a pussy and didn't fight back. You think Chuck Norris would have just accepted he was gonna be crucified??? You think Chuck would hide in a cave for three days either??

He died for his own sins, first one being a little bitch.

 

[Jabberwocky]

2000 years from now nobody is going to give a shit about Chuck fucking Norris (went to school with his kids btw).

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

2000 years from now nobody is going to give a shit about Chuck fucking Norris (went to school with his kids btw).

Similar to the way that nobody gives a fuck about Jesus now...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Other than the billions of people who obviously do.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

actually this is not at all what quantum mechanics says... quantum systems, when interacting with each other, form a relationship that is called "entanglement", but this does not need a conscious obvserver nor "awareness". I wish some people would stop using concepts of physics when they seem to have no idea what they mean.

single slit experiment is not entanglement. Particles will change their nature depending on observation. Collpase of a wavefunction also requires a obeserver

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Other than the billions of people who obviously do.

Oh, you mean the deluded brainwashed sheep incapable of independent thought? They dont count...