If Jesus died for our sins...

[swilow]

Did the Jews have any choice but to condemn Jesus to death then if God needed this to happen to open the gates of Heaven? Why haven't Christians forgiven the Jews yet for doing precisely what God wanted from them? Did they go to heaven? Honestly, the whole story can more easily be interpreted as a political document composed by antisemites to disparage the Jews rather than some supernatural gift from the creator of the universe to somehow open heaven so God could forgive us our sinful nature. The very same nature Christians tell us He created. No wonder so much Christianity is effectively self flagellation and no wonder the Jews have been hunted across our planet for 2000 years. That story created millennia of hate.

 

[swilow]

One of the reasons I find it useful to question the internal logic of the bible narrative is because it is a really simple way to show how unlikely it is that it was written by any one being, human or otherwise. It is so contradictory that it only really works as a compilation of ancient literature and is quite fascinating when viewed that way. But as a way of deriving a moral code, the mishmash nature of the stories makes it impossible to clearly ssy what the 'author' is trying to communicate. That's why Christians use all sorts of cognitive dissonance to claim God given free will while accepting that Jesus was preordained to be murdered. The brutality of the Old Testament makes Christians uneasy so they reject it as a metaphor...yet will be quick to mention Adam and Eve if someone brings up evolution. The picking and choosing of what is relevant and useful and what isn't is totally subjective. Yet they claim some sort of objective truth in the parts of the bible they don't reject. How convenient. It's because there is no internal logic to the bible that people are forced to pick and choose.

But the fact that people are already willing to believe in something with utterly no evidence at all in the first place makes me aware that no argument questioning the logic of their doctrinal beliefs is going to hold much water here. The whole idea is founded on wishful thinking and backed up by patched together ancient texts and that surely cannot lead to anything 'good' and indeed hasn't. People are coerced into thinking their eternal well-being is at stake if they don't pick a side and stick to it like glue.

At least the Koran is explicit in it's moral teachings to kill non Muslims. Faint praise though. Abrahamic religions are simply evil beliefs. Believers are victims here imo.

 

[nznity]

...doesn't that mean it's fine - even good - for us to sin?
If we don't sin then he died for nothing.

U got a point there xD

 

[Shrooms00087]

Did the Jews have any choice but to condemn Jesus to death then if God needed this to happen to open the gates of Heaven? Why haven't Christians forgiven the Jews yet for doing precisely what God wanted from them? Did they go to heaven? Honestly, the whole story can more easily be interpreted as a political document composed by antisemites to disparage the Jews rather than some supernatural gift from the creator of the universe to somehow open heaven so God could forgive us our sinful nature. The very same nature Christians tell us He created. No wonder so much Christianity is effectively self flagellation and no wonder the Jews have been hunted across our planet for 2000 years. That story created millennia of hate.

Jesus was a Jew. Most people in the Bible are persecuted. It's pretty much everyone against everyone. Death restores peace.

 

[swilow]

^The Jews weren't persecuted in the New Testament though. They were persecuted in a much more tangible and meaningful way- in the actual real world, as a result of those 4 stories. And of course, Jesus was a Jew, which is another examples of the hypocrisy of Christianity over the last 2000 years. By and large, it was Christians and their God given distaste for money that got the Jews into positions as moneylenders which the Christians then went onto persecute the Jews for as well as the preordained killing of Christ. It looks like Christians really just wanted to fuck over the Jews. Their contemporaneous enemies were the Romans who probably had a lot to do with the content of the gospels and all the hate that has been retained ever since.

Not that Judaism is any better tbh, it's arguably more insular and exclusive but has much fewer adherents than chrisitanity or islam so doesnt appear as dangerous. I'm sure that the enemies of the Israelites in the bible wouldn't have agreed though...

 

[Shrooms00087]

They (the Jews) were persecuted by the Pharaoh. Then Jesus was born and King Herod issued the "Massacre of the Innocents", during the Second Temple. Everybody against everybody!

 

[LordFran]

Except Jesus, he was against nobody. Thats the message. If he was against authoritanism and the powerful, it was only indirectly, because the truth offended those in power, as it always has, hence a rule of power is To always say less the necesesary.

Jesus didnt want power, saftey, or security, but truth, and to share the truth, so as to set us, God's children, free. I think he acomplished that goal. Those who let the way into their hearts are set free, regardless of who gives the teachings, regardless of the path one takes to arrive at the way; there are many paths, but only one way. The way does not appear real because it can not be seen or touched, only felt, in the same way justice and injustice is felt. The way is justice. What is just is good. What is good is just. A court may corrupt justice based on a bogus veredict by an ignorant jury, but that doesnt make justice fail, it makes humans fail to live up to justice. So what history made of Jesus doesnt make the truth any less true, it just showcases that people cant live up to that truth.

 

[swilow]

They (the Jews) were persecuted by the Pharaoh. Then Jesus was born and King Herod issued the "Massacre of the Innocents", during the Second Temple. Everybody against everybody!

As I said, the New Testament. Herod wasn't massacring Jews for their Jewishness, he was trying to kill Jesus specifically. Furthermore, even many biblical scholars consider it fictitious and an allegory for the so-called Passover in Egypt. I cannot remember which, but it's only in one gospel anyway.

I'm talking about reality and historical fact, not what is written in ancient literature. For Jewish people, the alleged death of Jesus at their hands (for which there really isn't adequate evidence) lead to shit like the Holocaust. Jesus's coming certainly didn't save the Jews.

The way does not appear real because it can not be seen or touched, only felt, in the same way justice and injustice is felt.

Justice is often a subjective notion though and changes over time. In some cultures, it is just to cut the hands from thieves or stone women who have been raped. And it changes over time to reflect values prevalent in different time periods. Justice and notions of it are cultural constructs. Is that what God is too? Does God share the same nebulous and changing nature as our notions of justice?

So what history made of Jesus doesnt make the truth any less true, it just showcases that people cant live up to that truth.

What would you say Jesus's truth is?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Having made choices in my life based on faith and faith alone, which have set the direction for the entire course of the rest of my life, I've pretty much committed myself. Not in a 'I'm going to wear a camelhair shirt and live in a cave in the desert living on locusts and honey' kind of way, though I sometimes dream about it.

 

[LordFran]

As I said, the New Testament. Herod wasn't massacring Jews for their Jewishness, he was trying to kill Jesus specifically. Furthermore, even many biblical scholars consider it fictitious and an allegory for the so-called Passover in Egypt. I cannot remember which, but it's only in one gospel anyway.

I'm talking about reality and historical fact, not what is written in ancient literature. For Jewish people, the alleged death of Jesus at their hands (for which there really isn't adequate evidence) lead to shit like the Holocaust. Jesus's coming certainly didn't save the Jews.



Justice is often a subjective notion though and changes over time. In some cultures, it is just to cut the hands from thieves or stone women who have been raped. And it changes over time to reflect values prevalent in different time periods. Justice and notions of it are cultural constructs. Is that what God is too? Does God share the same nebulous and changing nature as our notions of justice?



What would you say Jesus's truth is?

This is precisley the heart of the matter; the way and the truth does not yield to the notion of relative truth, thats why its the Truth. But why is it the Truth? Because it accepts no psychological authority, hence no cultural conditioning. If I accept the authority of the bible or of jesus, I am lost, cause it is but secondhand knowledge that I immitate without grasping, but if one lives with the truth at every instant, a truth born out of observing the heart and mind with deep attention and without any psychological authority placed on one by family and culture and country, all of which are perpetuated by fear, then one will act rightly and justly. Because where there is no fear, no violence, no ambition, there is peace.

How does this work concretley? To watch someone's hands get cut off is painful and messy to watch, so observing those feelings inside of me, I can go on to understand that cutting someone's hands off is wrong because I feel wrong about it, that acts that are violent or born out of retribution are inherintly wrong because they feed the darkness in one. To hurt another is inherintley wrong, because as the Buddah said "If you truly loved yourself, you could never hurt another." That wisdom is aimed at a part of man which man can not understand if he does not first come to know himself and the particular predicament it means to be born of out something we dont know, for a purpose we dont know, towards a destination we shall never know. At the entrence of the Temple of Delphi in Athens is inscribed the maxim "Know Thyself" this being the key to all understanding.

Hence the buddah, jesus, etc, are representatives of the cosmic love and its infinite wisdom which prevades throughout the universe (which is the word, the light, the truth, and the way) all of which are the true nature of the living being, that is to say, all things which reside in every being.

Imagine a child in one of those cultures which cut peoples hands off, thinking "damn this dont feel right, but what can I do, I cant challenge whay my tribe does." Cause the child is unconditioned, uncorrupted, hence why Jesus said "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Refering to the purity of children and how their purity is in accordance with truth (truth is the kingdom of heaven, because if heaven exists it would be the ultimate truth, since our whole lives would be meaningless if not for a proper end, just like a movie would me meaningless without a conclusion. Jesus is saying the kingdom of heaven is real~~buddah is saying the kingdom of heaven is real. There can be no proof for that, so Jesus and the Buddah offer the only possible antidote; look inside and you will see heaven, for "as above, so below" said jesus, buddah "“Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others.” I know its ironic to say dont listen to others while quoting others, but I reckon it balances itself out if I can carry the idea across in these few words.

Thank you for your amazing questions, I hope I have somewhat lived up to their complexity =)

 

[TripSitterNZ]

they said the kingdom of heaven exists they said it is within you. Transcend into the godhead past the ego into living full no-self it just peace.

 

[swilow]

@LordFran I think I understand you. There was a whole lot there, so I will try to address some of it.

I actually appreciate those sentiments of truth to the external world and truth within. No real sense of being content is possible is you are dishonest to others or yourself. What I have huge misgivings about is the need for religious dogma here. The ideas you express have no real bearing on most of either Christianity or buddhism- not to say the ideas are not valuable, it's just that you can have all of the truth, justice, compassion, love without needing to construct a doctrine around it, much less any reference supernatural entities or anything. To me, that muddies the waters. Jesus may have had the most profound truth ever to express (which I highly doubt because He really didn't say much and much of what we are told He said are really just extrapolations) but the additions of unproven facts about reality and the nature of life and death add a sense of moral coercion to the religion. Christians and Muslims in particular are under extreme duress to adopt any teachings of their religion because they are told that their eternal existence is at stake. People do evil things as a result of a hypothesis that is utterly unproven. Not to say it can't be proven, but living your life believing the God may condemn you to eternal torment if you don't follow some sort of 'policy' adds a layer of pressure to conform and adopt principles that may in fact be harmful or immoral.

to watch, so observing those feelings inside of me, I can go on to understand that cutting someone's hands off is wrong because I feel wrong about it, that acts that are violent or born out of retribution are inherintly wrong because they feed the darkness in one

Those acts are surely more wrong because they cause suffering to conscious beings, not just because they "feed the darkness" of our sinful souls. Morality aimed solely at one's own salvation leads people to make selfish choices. That shit dooms the world.

There can be no proof for that, so Jesus and the Buddah offer the only possible antidote; look inside and you will see heaven,

But you still don't need the dogma and doctrine which has been so incredibly damaging, especially in the case of Christianity. All the benefits of religion are available without the mind control imo.

I just find it hard to see any need to invoke God or Jesus except in some poetic or conceptual way, because as an explanatory force it just crumbles. So many contradictions and unfounded hypotheses within these texts that they do more to confuse than clarify and it seems we need to just ignore those parts to see any benefit.

I think we agree on what is important in a human life- I just think relying on ancient myths to achieve these things has lead to terrible real world consequences that continue to get defended and upheld based solely on evidence from a book.

Hopefully that makes sense, I am very scatter brained today ??

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

he freed me from all wrongdoing. can do as i wish. there is no judgement.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Some people like religion and some people don't.

 

[swilow]

Maybe all people should dislike it.

 

[LordFran]

"I just find it hard to see any need to invoke God or Jesus except in some poetic or conceptual way, because as an explanatory force it just crumbles"

Thats an oppinion swilow. How deeply have you actually looked into the matter for yourself without relying on what anyone else thinks? Have you searched out for proof of god in anyway? I hope you dont mind me asking.

"So many contradictions and unfounded hypotheses within these texts that they do more to confuse than clarify and it seems we need to just ignore those parts to see any benefit."

Discrimination and the ability to decern the true from the false, the real from the invented, is the name of the game. Most all of it is bullshit, it was passed down from, and written by, very uneducated people who were probably hungry and thirsty all the time.

"needing to construct a doctrine around it, much less any reference supernatural entities or anything."

Again, what do you personally know about entities?

"To me, that muddies the waters. Jesus may have had the most profound truth ever to express (which I highly doubt because He really didn't say much and much of what we are told He said are really just extrapolations)"

Have you actually read the Gospel of Thomas?

If Jesus said nothing, what do you think of Socrates said, for example?

"But the additions of unproven facts about reality and the nature of life and death add a sense of moral coercion to the religion. Christians and Muslims in particular are under extreme duress to adopt any teachings of their religion because they are told that their eternal existence is at stake. People do evil things as a result of a hypothesis that is utterly unproven. Not to say it can't be proven, but living your life believing the God may condemn you to eternal torment if you don't follow some sort of 'policy' adds a layer of pressure to conform and adopt principles that may in fact be harmful or immoral"

Yes it does add a moral cohesion to people who are not actually practicing the tenants of a religion but just doing what they are told and believing what they have to.

I really dont think religion should exist, or dogma or doctrine, or any irrational belief which hurts those who hold them, but also wonder, isnt it irrational to not believe in something just because you never experienced it?

Akiane Kramarick a real prodigy painter, saw and painted Jesus. She painted several other visions also.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe all people should keep an open mind and listen.

 

[Foreigner]

The lamb of god was symbolic. He was trying to show humanity that all sins are already atoned for, if you decide to take the righteous path. Sinning is not about some personified god keeping an accounting record of all the bad you do. Your own soul does that, or your conscience if you don't believe in a soul. The core nature of humanity is to be good. Doing goodness promotes divine alignment and purification.

When people think about original sin, they tend to look at it too materialistically... i.e. Jesus died for all our sins, so now we can sin as much as we like.

The whole point is that you can choose to live according to true nature or not. If you choose sin then you will live in damnation, not imposed by god but by your own resistance to true nature. The original Koine script of the Bible and its later Aramaic describes hell as the absence of God... i.e. living in false separation. Sin does that. Sin makes you feel cut off from Source. But the second you decide to atone and ask for forgiveness, it is already forgiven. That's what the lamb of god tells us.

 

[swilow]

^The mystical side of Christianity is interesting but I don't feel much is retained when you look at the modern text. Christianity has historically persecuted mystics to the extent that the experience of God or whatever has very little do with modern Christian beliefs.

Thats an oppinion swilow. How deeply have you actually looked into the matter for yourself without relying on what anyone else thinks? Have you searched out for proof of god in anyway? I hope you dont mind me asking.

I've looked very deeply and for many years. But it shouldn't matter because the majority of believers don't appear to look deeply and just believe because they feel obliged to. I'm not sure people attack their weak faith or if it doesn't matter as long as it's called faith...

It is an opinion as are all views on religion. Nobody can claim to have any objective evidence either way. Even the Pope relies on his opinion on this matter. For me, the lack of evidence is compelling but also the failure of positing a creative power as an explanation for reality seems really lacking in substance. Much of this can be explained without any need for a supernatural entity outside of space and time. Using that to explain everything just puts the process back a step. Who made God?

I really dont think religion should exist, or dogma or doctrine, or any irrational belief which hurts those who hold them, but also wonder, isnt it irrational to not believe in something just because you never experienced it?

That would be irrational, however that is not why I'm not a Christian. If the doctrine of Christianity was proven without doubt, I still wouldn't follow it because is is an immoral belief system when looked at in totality. That is a good reason to reject it and it's largely why I do.

For me, accepting claims about the universe and truth based solely on an ancient text is irrational but Christians are compelled to "have faith" as a noble sort of attribute. It just doesn't seem like a noble thing when it means that real evidence for the nature of reality that conflicts with doctrine is ignored or claimed to be false.

I've certainly experienced what I could call mystical states so I want to make it clear that I am not talking about believing in that capacity or not. It's the unhelpfully rigid dogma of most religions that I don't value.

 

[LordFran]

@swilow When you smoke DMT and see krishna smiling down at you from the sky, you have to understand that what you are seeing men have seen before you, and thats why they reported on it. This may not be case, their may be a better explanation for vividly seeing lord krishna or ganesh...do you have any speculations on how this could be?