If God knows everything, how can there be free will?

[Limpet_Chicken]

You ate durian? jesus fucking christ!

I've tasted that shit, and all I got was burnt out selenium rectifiers, rotting garlic/leeks and various notes of sulfurous noxiousness.
The only times I've ever smelled worse, its come out of a lab flask and needs a gas mask to be within a few hundred feet at least.

Tried durian once, in college, and it was AWFUL. Myself and a friend of mine ended up using it to punish a particular tutor, who had been mercilessly abusing, degrading and bullying this sweet, quiet young girl, someone inoffensive; who's never have hurt a fly.

Two pieces of durian in the waste paper basket, the rest of it in the bottom floor air-vents in the toilets. Didn't quite count on how potent that repulsive abomination was going to be. Caused the evacuation of the entire high-rise building whilst they called in the gas maintenance people....to a building that hadn't even got a gas supply.

Got the girl, and everyone else the day off though.

 

[Raasyvibe]

Title basically sums up my question. If the God of the bible (or any Abrahamic deity for that matter) is truly omnipotent, omnipresent and knows everything that will happen, then how can free will exist?

Because actions have consequences. And you can't have consequences without actions. Therefore, if sin is to yield it's own repercussion it must be brought to reality and made present to make the consequence real, even though God would already know the outcome and our destinations.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

I prefer the question "without relying on dualism, only materialism, considering our physical being is subject to the laws of physics, do we have free will?"

Only when you get into quantum mechanics and probabilities do you have the potential for unpredictable behavior. And for free will to exist there we would have to be able to control or at least influence those probabilities.

A lot of assumptions have to be made to allow for free will. Simpler to assume it's just an illusion.

 

[mal3volent]

Couldn't both exist? Maybe god just knows what you will choose of your own free will, and what you'll choose in the future. But it doesn't mean you didn't make those choices when those moments happened, and that you won't make the future choices, too. At any given point in your life, because of many factors, you will make a particular choice. But that doesn't mean you weren't making it.

This kind of thing makes my brain hurt, but if something is predetermined I don't think you can call it free will. I get what you're saying. You're saying a person lives their life and makes their choices. God looks at the decisions they made. God is independent from time or above time, so to speak. To say he knows what you will do "before" you do it assumes God exists on the same plane as us, which most would agree he doesn't.

Thats how I would attempt to explain it, if I weren't an atheist. But going back to my first sentence, I just don't buy it, because at the end of the day...it's a fucked up concept to begin with. God is an omniscient being who has essentially created a game for us here on earth. He gives us logic but expects us to betray it. Why. What exactly is the point? It would make a lot more sense if he would just provide some proof of his existence. Tell us what he expects of us and the consequences if we fail.

 

[Xorkoth]

Right, I don't believe in a god like that either, but for the sake of a thought experiment. But the same line of reasoning could apply to the question of free will in a deterministic universe, I think. Just because everything is already laid out and immutable, and time is an illusion, don't mean that the decisions we make in each moment aren't what produces the final form of the universe (collectively as all life forms).

 

[psy997]

This kind of thing makes my brain hurt, but if something is predetermined I don't think you can call it free will. I get what you're saying. You're saying a person lives their life and makes their choices. God looks at the decisions they made. God is independent from time or above time, so to speak. To say he knows what you will do "before" you do it assumes God exists on the same plane as us, which most would agree he doesn't.

Thats how I would attempt to explain it, if I weren't an atheist. But going back to my first sentence, I just don't buy it, because at the end of the day...it's a fucked up concept to begin with. God is an omniscient being who has essentially created a game for us here on earth. He gives us logic but expects us to betray it. Why. What exactly is the point? It would make a lot more sense if he would just provide some proof of his existence. Tell us what he expects of us and the consequences if we fail.

If it makes your brain hurt, good, keep going. The ability to hold seemingly paradoxical concepts as both true at the same time is a measure of great wisdom.

 

[Yourbaker]

The idea of an unexpected surprise leads to a belief in the supernatural. Not immediately, but if you follow it logically allowing for no rules of physical reality.

For example. We may, at some point in our future, be able to defy the rule of gravity if we can isolate the particle in charge of gravitational enforcement and control it. If I assume it will happen given enough time, I don't need to understand how, I can still imagine a future where we do amazing things because we have overcome a law of physics.

In my imagination I can make many things possible easily because I've removed a single law, despite not knowing the mechanism, I can imagine results. Since every action taken by a human always begins with imagination it doesn't matter to my brain that there is a law I can't break between reality and my imagination, I can apply my logical belief that we will overcome gravity and nonsense makes sense in my mind.

So I see free will as being dependant on my imagination, if I can't imagine a better solution to today's problem and I just succumb to the drudgery of life I have lost my free will and with it most of the joy of life. The result for me has been to see only 1 important issue and Xorkoth already hit it, now every choice is about US when it used to be just about me. Somewhere in my life I made a choice to reprioritize the importance of things, it seemed like a single choice but I make it 100 times a day. When i stop choosing me and I choose US instead life improves parabolically.

We live in a Society where we can make virgin births a regular thing and we can control the genetic make up of our next generation. Fables and myths become reality as we progress with knowledge and understanding but we will always lead the way with imagination. Limiting your imagination limits your future. The hard part of imagination is knowing when to let go of the silly bits and not let go of the true parts those silly bits were built on, just because we can imagine it doesn't make it real but if we don't imagine something better we certainly won't get there accidentally.

 

[iridescentblack]

I think the term free will has been misused a lot over the centuries. heh heh. see what I did there?

Free Will I often link to this creative word combination I call Divine Will. Divine Will is expressed through actions that fools use in order to justify things like bullying someone - claiming that , "He looked like he wanted a punch in the face therefore I gave it to him.

How to look at Free Will objectively. Will would need to be understood more which is a point it looks like invegauser brought up. Thing is, without science being able to identify to a culture who would widely accept it, will remains as of yet unseen. Then again 'will' has been accepted in a way of sorts but not by scientists, to my knowledge. Will by cultures or the religious and cults seem to think it goes or gets as high as the guy who recently went up in a cannon with a parachute to prove that the earth is flat.

Perhaps the answer is within the question itself. Can God be will? no pun intended, but if God were made of will somehow than perhaps there are ways of absorbing and using this will. But it would have to be free. and willpower seems to be rather something you work for than something that comes out of God's juicebox completely free.

 

[Tonberry King]

Ah, the good ol paradox of free will. I could sit here all day and fold through pages upon pages of opinions on this subject or I could just give mine. I feel some things are not for us to understand. Some things are out there that are far beyond the comprehension of our simple self-serving zeitgeist. My itty bitty brain aches from the thought of how much must surely be left to discover about our universe and our very own world, as well. I find solace in knowing that this physical body and mind is intended to have limitations.

 

[Twentypointfive]

God doesn't exist. And thats not comming from anger or remorse. It's just science and common sense. Please don't tear yourself apart internally because of religion. It is unnecessary. Religion was just a way for people to cope with famine, war, plagues, hopelessness and madness thousands of years ago. It gained popularity and political influence over the years and became what it is today. Religion is slowly on its way out in todays age. Just use your common sense and morals. Im sorry to offend you if you are religious or on the fence about it. Thats was not my intention.

 

[swilow]

Ah, the good ol paradox of free will. I could sit here all day and fold through pages upon pages of opinions on this subject or I could just give mine. I feel some things are not for us to understand. Some things are out there that are far beyond the comprehension of our simple self-serving zeitgeist. My itty bitty brain aches from the thought of how much must surely be left to discover about our universe and our very own world, as well. I find solace in knowing that this physical body and mind is intended to have limitations.

Intended by who?

I don't doubt there are more unknown unknowns than we will ever um know.

 

[Tonberry King]

Intended by who?

I don't doubt there are more unknown unknowns than we will ever um know.

You think too much, with all due respect. There is no WHO. There just is....
If I had to give it a name I think nature fits.

We are the offspring of the universe and the universe is our offspring. Without an audience there can be no performance...all the world's a stage.

Also, this concept of "free" that we lash so dearly onto is what makes slaves of us all. Free speech gets censored, free will gets manipulated, freedom becomes slavery.

 

[Twentypointfive]

I apologize, INVEGAUSER, honestly. Maybe I should have read a few more posts before I made my comment. Yes, I did quote the Bible in another thread. I grew up religious, attending sunday school almost every weekend. I even attended private school requiring me to memorize Bible verses and had to recite them every Monday. My family is very religious. I think the Bible is truely "The Good Book". It teaches the importance of values, morals, ethics, etc. As a child, I found the stories of the Bible taught in Sunday school to be captivating. When I came to my personal realization that God wasn't real I was devistated for years. But over time I overcame that emotion and now I feel I'm a better person. I incorperate what I have learned throughout my life (religion, history, science, whatever) and feel I have a new/better understanding of life. Believe me when I say, The fact that I went more than half of my life as a believer in God, religion is one of the most investigated and scrutinized part of my life (fine, fine tooth comb). That being said, I'm OK with people who find or always had found Christianity their one true religion... it is not my decision to make anyways. I respect my family's decisions and we get along with each other just fine.

 

[swilow]

You think too much, with all due respect. There is no WHO. There just is....
If I had to give it a name I think nature fits.
.

Cheers for the summary of my over thinking. I'm not sure what your basis for that assumption is.

You said our limitations are intended. That's tricky ground though. Who intended our limitations?

Rather, we have evolved attributes which enable us to understand aspects of reality but the architecture of our minds prevents us from knowing it all. But there is no intent or design here. It is natural selection.

 

[Tonberry King]

Cheers for the summary of my over thinking. I'm not sure what your basis for that assumption is.

You said our limitations are intended. That's tricky ground though. Who intended our limitations?

Rather, we have evolved attributes which enable us to understand aspects of reality but the architecture of our minds prevents us from knowing it all. But there is no intent or design here. It is natural selection.

The limitations are what is present not the who. If we were not intended to die, then we would not. However, we do die, as does everything else that fits into our understanding of what is alive. This is the way things are and we will never change that not with machines, nor medicines, nor sciences. The finite trying to fathom the infinite is useless just welcome acceptance because we live and die; no amount of evolution will change that. A dog will never fly and a fish will never climb a tree. That which can be named is not eternal and that which is eternal cannot be named. The who is not for us to see; but the limitations are clear as can be taking a gander at our deeply flawed society of today, and yesterday, and the day before.

 

[Tubbs]

But the simple fact that we now live in excess of 70 years quite frequently, whereas 100 years ago that was unfathomable says alot for limitations. Limitations can change, they can be dropped, 200 years ago it could be said a man will never fly, we do... daily in fact. Something unfathomable then is the normal now.

 

[swilow]

The limitations are what is present not the who. If we were not intended to die, then we would not. However, we do die, as does everything else that fits into our understanding of what is alive.

Or it could simply be that we die in exactly the manner the laws of physics would predict and as we know them, they are immutable and effectively eternal. Hence, the universe unfolds in a manner that we can predict based on cause-and-effect rather than through intent or even purpose. There does not appear to be any end point or goal to any of this, or not one that we can discern at the very least. Certainly no intent or will.

This is the way things are and we will never change that not with machines, nor medicines, nor sciences.

Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure. I think that we will make huge inroads into prolonging human life as long as possiblem and with the idea of digitising consciousness, eternal life might be something in the future. But it depends what you consider 'life'.

But still, entropy and gravity and chaos will continue to degrade physical structures without intervention. That won't change.

The finite trying to fathom the infinite is useless just welcome acceptance because we live and die; no amount of evolution will change that. A dog will never fly and a fish will never climb a tree. That which can be named is not eternal and that which is eternal cannot be named. The who is not for us to see; but the limitations are clear as can be taking a gander at our deeply flawed society of today, and yesterday, and the day before.

Nah, I think attempting to understand our place in this weird reality is something of vital importance, and gratifying in the attempt. Whether you call it the infinite or God or the universe is probably the same thing, but we shouldn't avoid trying to fathom it. And I don't think it an unreasonable conjecture to say that so far there is no evidence for any sort of overiding guidance or goal or plan this. Its an enactment of what could simply be indeterministic chaos. Mind boggling to consider

Our limitations as humans is something else altogether though. Human affairs exist in a kind of murk of unrealised potential. Theoretically, we could have a society of peace and plenty because we do have the means, but we aren't so much flawed as much as out of our depth in trying to balance our sense of reality as both a modern human with ideals and principles, and an evolved animal born from the harsh natural world of Earth. Because of how we evolved, we behave in certain ways and they certainly are not pretty. Look at many bands of hierarchical chimps for example, and its a struggle with brutal unprovoked attacks and apparent Machiavellian vies for power and control. We behave like that on a global scale and dress it in politics and a facade of dignity buts its still mob rule and and struggle OVER others to the top. Society is fucked.

Often I want nothing to do with it, if I'm honest.

 

[jsingh]

Free Will is the gift that was given to man by God to elevate him above all His other Creations. Although God knew of the outcome, the choice to obey or disobey was present before anything else.

Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, a choice made freely, and thus they became aware of morality. From that came shame and the leaving of the Paradise. But a dog or a swine do not know shame, or good or Evil. But they may have been denied Paradise too because one thing that did not happen was eating of the Tree of Knowledge--that gets left out, they only ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, they would be too elevated, and as God.

But God for to have real creations, must bestow choice to them; otherwise the creations are like fish in a glass.

 

[swilow]

^How can there be choice if the outcome is already known?

I'd love a religious person to actually answer this.

 

[jsingh]

I'm sorry to become offended, for maybe I have not made clear, that I am simply repeating that nonsense of which was taught to me by the sisters at my early school; but Mr. Swilow, sir, I have not just registered from nowhere and have been what you call a "lurker" for quite some time, and know of when someone advocates for the Devil; and Mr. Swilow, sir, you are strongly doing such a thing, the angry former Catholic which resides within you is screaming quite loudly much of the time.

As I have said I am simply repeating the notions that were attempted to be instilled in my young mind, but for which objections I have many; I merely choose to offer an answer in alignment with the Judeo-Christian Western point of view that is the sole spiritual directionality on this site; but at the same time, does not represent a contradiction to simple logic; for if for instance, you Mr. Swilow, were a host of some televised lottery contest, and knew in advance a candidate you wished to illegally favor, and yet maintaining your selection in secrecy from the candidate, and he were to select door number two, not knowing he was predestined to be the winner, did he not nonetheless select door number two of his own free and independent will? The two are not in logical contradiction.

This is still not in keeping with my own personal and private views, they being in what you call a more Eastern tradition, and thus too complex for most Westerners, involving nonlinearity for instance, but to call me irreligious I have little choice but to become offended by your hasty decisiveness and judgement.

Good day to you sir.

^How can there be choice if the outcome is already known?

I'd love a religious person to actually answer this.