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Idiots Who Are Pro-drug and Think Drugs Are Bad for You

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wizekrak said:
Cocaine is cardiotoxic
Alcohol is hepatotoxic
Meth and amphetamine derivatives (MDA, MDMA, MDEA, etc...) are neurotoxic

Aside from pot these are the big three in my city.

If you use certain substances you will do damage, it's just a matter of how much you're willing to accept for the high. Overloading any organ system in the human body is dangerous be it through toxicity or potential overdose.
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But those drugs are "popular" enough to make it to qwedsa's list of "popular" drugs.

So there you go qwedsa, your theory on "most drugs not being toxic" is completely wrong...as I thought all along.

Maybe you should re-phrase your statement to be "Some popular drugs are not toxic", but the word "most" definitely does not work.
 
^^ Not to mention that toxicity isnt the only damage drugs can do. Damn i feel like im repeating myself alot in this thread. Its how it has to be when dealing with ignorant people im afraid ;)
 
^oh i agree. the subject of debate is not, however, whether drugs can be addictive, or psychologically harmful. the topic is straight toxicity
purplefirefly said:
But those drugs are "popular" enough to make it to qwedsa's list of "popular" drugs.

So there you go qwedsa, your theory on "most drugs not being toxic" is completely wrong...as I thought all along.

Maybe you should re-phrase your statement to be "Some popular drugs are not toxic", but the word "most" definitely does not work.
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i didnt call it a list of popular drugs

i called it a list of illegal and nontoxic drugs

the statement that most illegal drugs aren't toxic (in moderation) is still true because the combined usage of opiates, benzos, psychedelics, and marijuana, is > the combined usage of the stimulants
 
wizekrak, so you think the processes of the human body are optimal, run at 100% efficiency, and can't be improved? I think you were born in the wrong era for that kind of viewpoint, because in the near future we will all be superhuman.

Homeostasis in the human body is decent attempt at efficiency, but evolution only gets you so far. Science has already brought us and will continue to bring us improvements to that homeostasis - a lot of drugs are improvements.
 
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Rated E said:
^^ Not to mention that toxicity isnt the only damage drugs can do. Damn i feel like im repeating myself alot in this thread. Its how it has to be when dealing with ignorant people im afraid ;)
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+1

I just don't understand how anyone can try to assume that physical damage is completely different than psychological.
 
qwedsa said:
^oh i agree. the subject of debate is not, however, whether drugs can be addictive, or psychologically harmful. the topic is straight toxicity
i didnt call it a list of popular drugs

i called it a list of illegal and nontoxic drugs

the statement that most illegal drugs aren't toxic (in moderation) is still true because the combined usage of opiates, benzos, psychedelics, and marijuana, is > the combined usage of the stimulants
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This is because you are assuming that toxicity only applies to the physical self and not the psychological self.
 
The human body runs as close to 100% efficiency as the environment allows. Any tinkering at the genetic level presents a host of challenges that we aren't prepared to fully resolve at this time. Changing the human body to run differently than it does at present for any sustainable amount of time will prove difficult if not nearly impossible with our current knowledge.

They tried building supermen in the 1940's personally I'm glad the trend has died out.
 
trancegirlie, mental illness is a foolish way to shrug off your personal responsibility for the reality you live in. No, depressed people don't want to be depressed. But they feel helpless or despondent because they're ignorant of the fact that there is no higher power, there are no external handicaps in their life, and that every single thing that happens within their own mind is completely under their control. As soon as they realize they're their own fucking God and creator of the universe, and discipline themselves to be mindful of their thoughts and emotions, they will no longer have trouble overcoming depression.
 
yes. do you? do you want a thorough explanation in my own words (i already did, but apparently it wasnt enough), or do you want me to cite meta studies? care to cite some yourself?
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Yes I would like that please.

My knowledge is very limited as we have only broached the subject of pharmacology in the past 6 months at med school and obviously we don't spend a lot of time on recreational drugs.

I do feel confident though in my understanding of physiology and the source (drugs or other pathology) doesn't matter, because the way the human body responds to various stimuli is pretty much universal.

So I'm just using a bit of common sense, putting 2 + 2 together with my current knowledge rather then citing studies that I wouldn't dream of comprehending at this point in time.
 
purplefirefly said:
+1

I just don't understand how anyone can try to assume that physical damage is completely different than psychological.
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at a fundamental level, any change on the psychological level correlates with a change on a physical level, sure

but there can be a negative impact on the psychology of an individual without any actual damage to his mental machinery

the point of this thread is very simple. some people think that physical damage (as distinct from psychological) always results from recreational drug use even in extreme moderation, but in most cases it doesnt. that's all we're saying
 
wizekrak, I respectfully agree to disagree. If you follow sports nutrition (steroids, growth hormones, etc.), nootropic research, anti-oxidant research, life extension research, military research, etc. you'll find that there are already many superhumans walking amongst us and if you refuse to believe they know what they're doing, you're gonna be left in the dust.
 
Coolio said:
trancegirlie, mental illness is a foolish way to shrug off your personal responsibility for the reality you live in. No, depressed people don't want to be depressed. But they feel helpless or despondent because they're ignorant of the fact that there is no higher power, there are no external handicaps in their life, and that every single thing that happens within their own mind is completely under their control. As soon as they realize they're their own fucking God and creator of the universe, and discipline themselves to be mindful of their thoughts and emotions, they will no longer have trouble overcoming depression.
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Tell that to the schizophrenic, the manic depressive or the psychotic. Mental illness is grounded in medical science aside from a few debatable cases. Some people are depressed because they can't synthesise neurotransmitters efficiently or absorb certain nutrients. It can't be reduced to a catch all phrase like "people are depressed because they can't handle life"
 
Coolio said:
trancegirlie, mental illness is a foolish way to shrug off your personal responsibility for the reality you live in. No, depressed people don't want to be depressed. But they feel helpless or despondent because they're ignorant of the fact that there is no higher power, there are no external handicaps in their life, and that every single thing that happens within their own mind is completely under their control. As soon as they realize they're their own fucking God and creator of the universe, and discipline themselves to be mindful of their thoughts and emotions, they will no longer have trouble overcoming depression.
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Wow...and to think that all these people who live with depression are doing so needlessly.

You just have all of the answers. Its just too bad that you are offering a simple solution to a not so simple problem. A lot of people who are depressed cannot point their finger and say that "Oh this is the reason why I feel like shit". If it were just an issue of saying "Okay I am NOT going to feel this way anymore" then millions of people would not be plagued by depression.

You position is a very naive one.
 
I think he chose the wrong words... the body obviously doesn't run at/or near 100% all the time. Homeostasis flucuates quite wildly all the time.

Perhaps a better way to explain it (and maybe what he meant?), is that the body maintains a safe level of homeostasis, 100% of the time, minus when pathology occurs.
 
Coolio said:
wizekrak, I respectfully agree to disagree. If you follow sports nutrition (steroids, growth hormones, etc.), nootropic research, anti-oxidant research, life extension research, military research, etc. you'll find that there are already many superhumans walking amongst us and if you refuse to believe they know what they're doing, you're gonna be left in the dust.
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Tell me these advancements don't put a whole host of new strains on the human body. Yes you can bread faster stronger humans (the soviets have been doing it for years, that's simple eugenics). Antioxidants and nootropics are typically used to reverse a degradative process in the body. Since you aren't adding anything merely limiting damage you aren't really engineering anything new.

Take telomerase for instance. The reason you die is because the telomeres get reduced with each successive cell replication event. Cells in the gut and lung lining have telomerase which prevents "aging" of those cells. Implant telomerase in other cell types and the incidence of cancer skyrockets.

What exactly constitutes a superhuman?
 
wizekrak, I also think the entire "scientific" field of psychology is bullshit. Humanity is not an army of clones, it's billions of individuals each with different DNA and different biological processes. To pick some sort of 'baseline' that is considered 'healthy' and then categorize people based on their 'symptoms' which are simply deviations from a 'norm' that was arbitrarily chosen within certain categories of behavior/thought processes by a rich white European/American male... then use that ridiculous system to medicate or perform psychotherapy (aka patronization/belittlement/accusation)... that's what I call psychotic.
 
@wizekrak, nootropics and antioxidants dont cause strain. far from it. also i imagine the goal of life extension research would be to find ways to keep you alive that dont strain the body (otherwise it would be rather counterproductive)

Take telomerase for instance. The reason you die is because the telomeres get reduced with each successive cell replication event. Cells in the gut and lung lining have telomerase which prevents "aging" of those cells. Implant telomerase in other cell types and the incidence of cancer skyrockets.
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that's why methods of life extension are still being researched
 
qwedsa said:
@wizekrak, nootropics and antioxidants dont cause strain. far from it. also i imagine the goal of life extension research would be to find ways to keep you alive that dont strain the body (otherwise it would be rather counterproductive)



that's why methods of life extension are still being researched
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I dont think thats what wizekrak was saying. How i interpreted the post was that the advancements being made (superhumans and such) may or may not put strain on the body. Then he went on to mention that antioxidants and such arent actually making advancements to humans, they are just reversing damage.

Was i right?
 
If you're talking about Freud most of his work has been discredited. There are a myriad of approaches to psychotherapy (transpersonal, humanistic, etc...). If you look at the similarity in human DNA most people are in fact clones for the most part. Human and chimp DNA differs by a mere 2% or so. I've never seen a form of psychotherapy that uses belittlement and accusation. The first thing any medical student does is swear to do no harm. I believe that most of humanity does indeed run on a baseline with tolerance on either side of the norm. It isn't only rich white Europeans who agree on what goes in the DSM-IV it's doctors from around the globe.
 
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