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Ice comedown

NRG: I guess each to their own... In my personal experience, I am yet to encounter a person who would not like the effects of good ice when smoked. Yes the come down could be a problem sometimes, but so is a really bad hang over :) In my personal experince, *good*, *clean* ice, when smoked, produces the greatest high/euphoria per amount ingested with least lasting sleep effecting symptoms. It is only my guess what could be the cause of only a little high/long insomnia syndrome.

OT tip: If your crystals burn to absolute clear, it is not meth. Meth when smoked undergoes pyrolysis which libirates the freebase molecule and leaves behind the hydrochloride molecule which will under most condition leave a brown stain in the pipe. This will happen with 99.9% of meth. Also, when smoking, try to melt your rock first, and then let cool so it recrystalises in the pipe. This way much of the unwanted HCl would have evaporated (hence no bad taste on first toke) and also all the little specks of meth are in one crystal solid "puddle" (usually dull white) and do not roll around the pipe.
 
Isnt this getting a bit off topic. Cant people just call a spade a spade. There is very strong meth kicking around Melbourne and other places in Australia and its street slang term is ICE. It has recently become very popular but is something that is causeing alot of people some pretty unpleasant side effects. PERIOD. We can crap on about how there is no such thing as a bad drug as much as well like but i'm more than prepared to argue that ice has become the master of alot of people.
 
AlexxRed said:
Isnt this getting a bit off topic.

[...]

but i'm more than prepared to argue that ice has become the master of alot of people.
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A topic which is covered here.

BigTrancer :)
 

OT tip: If your crystals burn to absolute clear, it is not meth. Meth when smoked undergoes pyrolysis which libirates the freebase molecule and leaves behind the hydrochloride molecule which will under most condition leave a brown stain in the pipe. [/B]
Click to expand...


Is this correct I always thought whatever was left behind was the crap or cut and if your crystals melt to just a slight coating nearly clear it was pure stuff.

If not what the hell have I been smoking ?
 
...I always thought whatever was left behind was the crap....If not what the hell have I been smoking ?
Click to expand...

Where do you want me to start? :\

The bottom line is that some pyrolysis is likely to occur, even with pure product and careful heating.

From that I've read, a constant vacuum and perfectly dry conditions are required to produce a vapour deposited crystal without burning. The same would apply for a pipe, but how many are kept absolutely dry or have a constantly applied vacuum and controlled heat source? Drawing air over the heated salt also increases likelihood of pyrolysis occurring. Might be a bit tricky but you could try heating in an argon atmosphere.
 
a question on ice - can you drink alcahol when smoking it or does the rock over power it and you wont get drunk?

is it hard to drink alcahol on it , does it taste like shit? , my mate rekons he drinks like a fish on it.

is it safe to drink before smoking rock?

whats the peak diffrence from rock and xtc? do you feel the euphoria the same but longer? and how long do you peak for?

and wahts the comedowns like? are they depressing? or do you just feel really tired and thrashed?
 
The stimulant effects tend to mask the alcohol effects. This can lead to you not feeling drunk (because you don't feel the lethargy or sleepiness), but still amassing a large blood alcohol content if you have several drinks in succession. The combined dehydration effects of the stimulant and alcohol can lead to bad dehydration and horrid hangovers.

Also, because you can drink a lot of alcohol without feeling it (in the early stages of drunkenness), it's very easy to over do it. Throwing up from alcohol overindulgence, while speeding one's head off, is both a) not fun, and b) can burst blood vessels in your eyes because you throw up quite hard. Doesn't look great.

BigTrancer :)
 
BigTrancer said:
The stimulant effects tend to mask the alcohol effects. This can lead to you not feeling drunk (because you don't feel the lethargy or sleepiness), but still amassing a large blood alcohol content if you have several drinks in succession. The combined dehydration effects of the stimulant and alcohol can lead to bad dehydration and horrid hangovers.

Also, because you can drink a lot of alcohol without feeling it (in the early stages of drunkenness), it's very easy to over do it. Throwing up from alcohol overindulgence, while speeding one's head off, is both a) not fun, and b) can burst blood vessels in your eyes because you throw up quite hard. Doesn't look great.

BigTrancer :)
Click to expand...
Been there, done exactly that (short of bursting eye vessels) and most certainly learnt my lesson. Now if I'm still feeling speedy, no matter how much I want to get to sleep, I won't keep drinking past a certain point. And horrid hangover - I'll definitely vouch for that.
 
The only time I've ever seen residue is when the flame has incomplete combustion (the flame isn't all blue, has some orange) or if the flame is too close.
This is off foils btw. The pipe used to smoke off the foil, contains a decent amount of crystal. When heated, this also leaves no visible residue.
So this isn't the norm?? Or is the brown residue and crappy taste a feature of pipes?
 
^^^^ I don't see how its possible for meth not to leave any residue on the foil. When meth vaporises, it leaves the HCl molecule behind. Some HCl is vaporised, but a lot will react with Al producing Cl2 gas. This HAS to leave a stain and almost alays burn a whole in Al foil. This is why smoking from a foil is not only a waste of meth and pleasure of passing the pipe around, but is also more harmful because some Cl2 is breathed in.

So unless you are smoking MSM, I don't see how meth doesn't leave a stain on the foil... (even MSM will leave a tiny trace since it is probably a little dirty since been out of a jar. MSM will not burn a whole in your Al foil though - so I guess that's how you can test if you crystal is MSM or meth other then just tasting the fucker)
 
I do not see why the HCL molecule would be left behind.

The H+ is on the nitrogen atom to form a methamphetamine positive ion which is strongly associated with the negative chloride ion. In solid form this association continues in an infinite 3-Dimensional network. Why would vaporising reverse this process? It just heats it up enough that the energy is sufficient to break these bonds and then once the units are free of the energy holding the structure together, the solid meth becomes a gas; surely Meth-H+ and Cl- as gaseous particles in favour of meth freebase and HCl.

In any event if im wrong, HCl is a gas anyway; and would float off far more readily than methamphetamine.
Also hydrogen gas is produced when HCl reacts with aluminium.

I'm sure phase_dancer could explain this whole process better; my chemistry in this area is rusty to say the least.
 
Biscuit has pretty well explained the lattice effect of the crystalline structure of Meth--HCl salt. The lattice has 2 bonds involved; the Van der Waals forces between "connecting" HCl molecules (hydrogen bonding) and the very stable (requiring high energy to break) ionic bonds between the H+ and Cl- of each HCl molecule. In the freebase form, hydrogen bonding exists between the N of one molecule and the nitrogen bound H of another.

OK, deeper theory. Amines can be the free amine (ammonia_ NH3), a primary amine (methylamine, MDA, amphetamine etc_R-NH2) a secondary amine (MDMA, dimethylamine, diethylamine etc R-NH-R) or a tertiary amine (trimethylamine, triethylamine etc. _R-N< R1,R2).

At this stage I was going to explain equilibrium and disassociation constants, but I think to keep it simple and save time it will serve to say that when referring to an amine, the pKa is a relative indicator of basic strength (alkalinity) in water.

Ammonia - pKa of 9.25
Methylamine - pKa of 10.64
Dimethylamine - pKa of10.77


The reason dimethylamine is more basic than methylamine is because of something known as inductive field effect from the bonded carbons. As this increases ( CH3 -NH- > CH3-CH2-NH- > CH3-NH-CH3, etc ) so does the inductive effect which in turn increases the basicity.

The more basic an amine is, the more easily it will receive a proton (H+) and the molecule will become more stable in water. You are probably saying by now that we are not talking about water, we are talking about HCl. Right, but if for this argument you substitute HCl for H2O, you get to see the picture. In fact because the hydrogen bonding of HCl is less than with H2O, it will more readily *share* a proton with the lone pair of electrons (Cl-H--:NH<) Water instead likes to form hydrates where the H is usually fairly tightly bound to the O of O-H

So the extra proton (attached to the lone pair of electrons on the amine) is bound by a reasonably high energy bond (making NH4+). If the proton attached, is part of a hydrochloride molecule, the overall stability of the amine salt is also high. When heated gently to just above melting the salt should therefore sublimate or vaporise (theoretically) as he energy required for this is less than that required to break the aforementioned bonds. But should heat be applied unevenly or too fast, products such as dimers and condensation products may be formed, and any free HCl would likely be released as HCl gas, before it decomposed.

Hope that helps to clarify rather than confuse 8)


Edit: Regarding the foil; there is quite a bit going on here. I think the consensus is that most products likely to be inhaled are aluminium and oxides/hydroxides of Al. Of course there still remains a very obvious question of how bad these things may be for your health.

Check out this thread from Health Q&A ...freebasing off aluminum foil...dangers? and follow the links. As you'll see the school is still out on this one
 
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Biscuit: too right, H2 not Cl2 I wasn't thinking straight

phase_dancer: impressive theory there... I am sure I have read somewhere that meth undergoes pyrolisis upon vaporisation. Also, meth.hcl does not have a boiling point. meth freebase does.
It is possible to smoke freebase.
 
First of all I would say that pyrolysis occurs to some degree with most crystal heated to vapourise. This is because of factors such as impurities, eneven heating, presence of air etc or too much heat being applied. Let's face it, most users do not (and cannot) control these factors.

As I assume you imply, there is no boiling point for Meth-HCl because it decomposes before boiling. Therefore, if the (pure)crysytal is bubbling while being heated, it is decomposing/ reacting. The idea is to not get too much higher than the melting point which can be hard to do without serious temperature control.

Meth freebase can be smoked, but it is a liquid at room temperature, so would be messy and difficult to handle. I would imagine being a liquid at room temp., it would also easily condense on the pipe and the bronchial airway. If you look at a vapor phase diagram this should become self explanatory.

In regards to pyrolysis, I posted this on the my nana can't tell an amphetamine from a methamphetamine! thread.
 
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