Bupe I want to stop bupe by my own means, maybe w/ MT-45, AH-7821(sic) or Tapentadol

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

I can get these, yes, even the latter without a prescription. I'm sick of buprenorphine, it is too strong for the very little we humans actually perceive it, long term usage of bupe has been shown to be dangerous as in it could break one's opiate receptors due to it binding so fucking strongly to mu receptors. I've been on it since late August, in retrospect Methadone wasn't too bad, except for the massive weight gain from water retention and the total annihilation of my testosterone production, which is what really prompted me to have the switch done, as buprenorphine is known not to mess with testosterone unlike full agonists, nevermind strong, long duration mu agonists like methadone (I doubt my previous Dilaudid habit was causing any of this).

I brought facts in that above paragraph, one can search the internet themselves for the assertions I just put forward, I imagine the good folks at BL will know about them anyway.

I'm at 10-12mg a day, officially at 12, but sometimes I just take 4 or even 2, but let's say my most common dose is 10mg. I know I would have to taper down to 1mg then take nothing for 3 days or so then I could use.

Anybody got out of the receptor shackles that is bupe? (people call methadone liquid shackles, well I find bupe even more insidious in how it manages to up your tolerance to opiates even more than the previous dose of methadone you were using before switching ( I was switched at 39mg a day after not using for 52 hours to 4mg sub, then 8mg the next day outpatient, would spend 4 hours at the clinic then I left with a script for 10, recently upped to 12 only to maybe alleviate my honest pain issues which methadone tackled perfectly, but did so by fucking up my entire system, unlike self-administered Dilaudid IV (I wonder if they use such strong dangerous opioids instead of totally safe tried and true opioids just to get rid of us "junkie" scums, even if we were pain patients from the start).

And if you did, anybody used any of these products to ween themselves out of bupe/methadone and just got rid of that mandatory (in my case apparently i'm lucky, but i'm also a very normal patient which they like and don't even piss test anymore) appointments every 5 weeks just so I can get my weekly suboxone. I know some other provinces in canada, Ontario, allows ANY doc to script suboxone, a-la americans, but it's just not an option in my province.

I'm sick of being shackled by my government, even more than the regular citizen and I'm gonna do it with my own means, and without depending on unreliable pharm dealers who tell you to fuck off and treat you like shit when they are "out of" pills being totally enslaved to them deciding if I can have my say Dilaudids. Having to deal with their senility (pharm dealers are often old, makes sense) and grumpy old men who change mood all the time, make it a pain to obtain things from them, like if it was a privilege, with no price cuts etc. You know what I mean, if I get say 1g of Tapentadol, I'll be in full control of my destiny regarding this fucking addiction I am so tired of talking about.

I also get even worse constipation that I used to with methadone. I'm out of sessonides 7,6mg, but right now with sodium docusate, lactulose and PEG 3350 juice (its primarily used for goddamn bowels emptying for colonoscopies and I still only push out 3-4 little balls after extreme forcing that causes me to sweat and my heart to beat incredibly fast). I don't know if things will get better when I get a sessonides script again (am in the process of dealing with that by phone with the clinic right now), but I noticed that docusate causes me to poo little balls like that instead of normal turds (sorry about the damn details but it's necessary to speak of them) like when I was on methadone and using sessonides, lactulose and PEG 3350 (irregularly) but I would manage to go still.I feel so damn bubbly and heavy, ugh. Even some 15mg Dexedrine (which usually gives me the shits a little) didn't help at all.

/rant and give me ideas mah bois, especially if you managed to get off bupe/done yourself with weaker full agonists.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

If you want to come off bupe, just taper down to a low enough dose, .5 or .25, and stop. Going to a full agonist to detox off of bupe doesn't make much sense.

 

[MagickalKat777]

^ Nor does going to research chemicals that are not subject to strict quality control. Talk about unreliable dealers, that's exactly what RC vendors are.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

^^
ITP :Mad American is mad no respected sellers that have third party NMR's and other analysis ships to the USA.

Yes, it might seem illogical but it actually is. Bupe even if a partial agonist, is actually using up my opiate receptors more than a weaker than morphine full agonist. I'm 95% sure my tolerance to opiates is higher now at 10-12mg of suboxone than when I was on 60mg of methadone.

If anybody succeeded in reducing their tolerance this way, even if it meant going back to bupe from time to time, I'm all ears/eyes.

So sick of that pancreatitis and migraine-inducing, mr clean tasting pill (wish Canada's suboxone was orange flavoured instead of this nasty lemon and lime crap) I gotta leave under my tongue for 25 minutes until my mouth is almost unable to contain all the saliva. When you consider asking to go back on methadone, albeit at about the same dose (and lowest used dose) I left it (~40mg), it's a good idea to consider less disgusting full agonists than methadone.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^^

Your tolerance is high right now at 10-12mg's of suboxone, yes, but you're not supposed to jump off that high. You need to ween down to sub-milligram doses.

 

[MagickalKat777]

^^
ITP :Mad American is mad no respected sellers that have third party NMR's and other analysis ships to the USA.

Mad American is mad? Really?

What happens when they schedule your DOC and you're left with nothing? You're mad if you think that taking research chemicals that vary from batch to batch (no supplier pays for analysis of every batch of a chemical that they get - on top of that, a number of the analysis results that have been done were done by the parent lab, not the vendor, regardless of what your favorite internet drug dealer tries to tell you) and have unpredictable and largely unstudied effects is a smart thing to do. But by all means, do as you wish.

-Mad American

P.S., that's what reshippers are for. Anything you can get in Canada, I can get here if I'm willing to pay for it.

 

[sekio]

Going from bupe to a full agonist is moving backwards. There's lots of discussion on people switching from bupe back to heroin, it usually doesn't end very well. Stick to bupe tapering... it's done for a reason.

Yes, it might seem illogical but it actually is. Bupe even if a partial agonist, is actually using up my opiate receptors more than a weaker than morphine full agonist.

That's not how it works; partial agonists produce less tolerance than a full agonist because they activate the receptor less. If you were on a morphine dose low enough to reduce your tolerance, you'd be miserable (probably somewhere below 10mg of morphine a day), or your tolerance would be getting jacked through the roof.

Let's not talk about sources.

 

[Hammilton]

Why not go to kratom? It's easy to obtain, it's cheap, and its highly effective. I'm actually a little itchy from it.

I take four or five grams around 1, and 8-10g after work, around 1am. I feel good enough and sleep well at bed time thanks to it.

Today is day 13 without Suboxone for me and I feel quite good. I haven't decided if I want to stay on it out jump off here, but I think it's a great treatment for addiction.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

^^^

Your tolerance is high right now at 10-12mg's of suboxone, yes, but you're not supposed to jump off that high. You need to ween down to sub-milligram doses.

I intend to stop at 1 or 0,5mg before jumping on those weak full agonists, yep.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Why not go to kratom? It's easy to obtain, it's cheap, and its highly effective. I'm actually a little itchy from it.

I take four or five grams around 1, and 8-10g after work, around 1am. I feel good enough and sleep well at bed time thanks to it.

Today is day 13 without Suboxone for me and I feel quite good. I haven't decided if I want to stay on it out jump off here, but I think it's a great treatment for addiction.

I have considered it, since I can get kratom total alkaloid extract, would be less of a bother. I almost choke and puke when I eat shrooms (taste like 1 month old rotten kraft dinner if it has been laying around since a long time). Considering it is even less powerful than the proposed weak full agonists I am pondering about.

Mad American is mad? Really?

What happens when they schedule your DOC and you're left with nothing? You're mad if you think that taking research chemicals that vary from batch to batch (no supplier pays for analysis of every batch of a chemical that they get - on top of that, a number of the analysis results that have been done were done by the parent lab, not the vendor, regardless of what your favorite internet drug dealer tries to tell you) and have unpredictable and largely unstudied effects is a smart thing to do. But by all means, do as you wish.

-Mad American

P.S., that's what reshippers are for. Anything you can get in Canada, I can get here if I'm willing to pay for it.

I was just being ironic Tapentadol isn't well researched ? (I'm mostly thinking of going with that).

Going from bupe to a full agonist is moving backwards. There's lots of discussion on people switching from bupe back to heroin, it usually doesn't end very well. Stick to bupe tapering... it's done for a reason.



That's not how it works; partial agonists produce less tolerance than a full agonist because they activate the receptor less. If you were on a morphine dose low enough to reduce your tolerance, you'd be miserable (probably somewhere below 10mg of morphine a day), or your tolerance would be getting jacked through the roof.

Let's not talk about sources.

I haven't, just said what I could obtain and the reliability of it. You can't compare those compounds to heroin in all seriousness, even my old DOC Dilaudid is too strong and I obviously would not consider doing that heh, especially since it means absolutely needing to IV it.

Tapentadol has additional properties that seems like it would make the transition easier. I know you know your shit sekio, but aren't you aware that buprenorphine used for too long and not just for weening yourself out in 3 months max is bound to mess up your opiate receptors PERMANENTLY due to it's ridiculously strong binding abilities (I'm sure you can word this out better than I do from the technical point. I got this info from what used to be the ADD board. I remember clearly when my doc told me that if I get hurt and am in the ER I need to tell that I am on Suboxone because nothing will help me, except mega large doses of Fentanyl.

Also, is it true I could feel tapentadol and tramadol while already taking suboxone? For some reason, it seems to do this on some people around here and other places, but I never saw a logical explanation. Except that tramadol is a dirty drug messing with almost all receptors in existance. But if it means I could take both and phase out the suboxone, I'd be really happy. Honestly, at this point I don't mind being addicted to something. As long as it's not bupe, not methadone and not something is only good IV'd. Don't suggest benzos, I already have enough problems with my 2 scripts, they could have been useful a long time ago but now is too late.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

I intend to stop at 1 or 0,5mg before jumping on those weak full agonists, yep.

But dude, if you get down to .5mg's of bupe, then go back to a full agonist.. you are totally going backwards. Why would you do that? Get down to as low of a dose of bupe as you can, (.25mg's has worked well for a lot of people), and then just stop. The withdrawals from .25mg's of bupe are going to be much easier than any full agonist you switch to.

Bupe is used that way for a reason, you know?

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

But dude, if you get down to .5mg's of bupe, then go back to a full agonist.. you are totally going backwards. Why would you do that? Get down to as low of a dose of bupe as you can, (.25mg's has worked well for a lot of people), and then just stop. The withdrawals from .25mg's of bupe are going to be much easier than any full agonist you switch to.

Bupe is used that way for a reason, you know?

Bupe also causes me to have ungodly constipation where it becomes a hazard to my health. I take 4 anti-constipation meds, on top of drinking lots of water and eating fiber. Now that I ran out of sessonides pills, and left with only 3 medication, including one I had stopped using often, the very powerful PEG 3350 + electrolytes, I can't take a shit at all. I might as well give myself a heart attack trying to push what amounts to little rabbit sized shitballs. Every 6 days.

I know I'm full of it, heh, when I only take 2mg for a couple days I will dump endlessly needing 3 flushes sometimes. First the compacted little balls get out...then it seems my intestines get going and I push out massive dry turds then soft ones for maybe 25 minutes. It cannot be healthy to be so full of shit like that. I fear of getting a impacted(sic) colon or even worse paralytic ileus. The massive binding to my gut receptors is just crazy. I called my clinic again so that they move their fucking ass and call the pharmacy and script me the missing sessonides, they didn't even call me back yesterday and the secretary was all like "but I told them yesterday, I'll tell em again". See that's another part of the whole thing I'm sick of. And I don't know when and if my province will allow any doctor to script me 30 day scripts of subs any time soon.

Forgot to say : I ain't ready yet to taper sub by itself, which adds to my narrative...when I only take 2mg a day I am extremely irritable and my mental health suffers a lot.

 

[5StarSquatHotel]

So you are saying bupe damages your receptors yet you are taking a very high dose, are you aware of the stacking effect due to the silly long half life? 8mg really is the max dose imo. The longer you stay on such high doses the harder its going to be to taper. I bet 4mg a day would hold you and within being on that dose stable for a couple of weeks you could drop down to 2mg. I found getting down to 2mg fairly easy, below that it gets harder. I know a few people who have been stuck on 0.2mg for months. I would taper down as soon as you can, with bupe less is more.

 

[WantToBeReborn]

Elvis Presley was reported to have massive gut issues from opiates and I've read before that he passed away while trying to go.

All the changes up and down in dose won't help, start a taper and lay off the intermittent big doses until your gut motility improves consistently.

Try increasing Vitamin C and Magnesium also for constipation, some considerable increases may be needed to draw fluid into the bowel and improve motility.

If you get diarrhoea or soft stool leaking past hard stool or unexpectedly, this may indicate faecal impaction or mega colon and is a medical emergency.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Elvis Presley was reported to have massive gut issues from opiates and I've read before that he passed away while trying to go.

All the changes up and down in dose won't help, start a taper and lay off the intermittent big doses until your gut motility improves consistently.

Try increasing Vitamin C and Magnesium also for constipation, some considerable increases may be needed to draw fluid into the bowel and improve motility.

If you get diarrhoea or soft stool leaking past hard stool or unexpectedly, this may indicate faecal impaction or mega colon and is a medical emergency.

I'm very aware of that, once something like that happened when I was on methadone, but the stock up crap managed to be easy to get out.

What can vitamin C do about constipation, this stuff is recommended for everything. I already eat oranges pretty often.

I will take your advice too buddy about not taking more than 8mg, I actually wanted to drop from 10 to 8 anyways but my doctor talked to me about 12 because we're in the process of maybe moving me to the pain clinic now that I have proven I can use opiates "correctly" and maybe a little more would help with the pain issues. I'm already obliged to take 12mg in front of the pharmacist so I can't do much about this until I see my docs again. The other 6 days I often take say 8mg and 2-4mg 12 hours later, I def do not take 10-12 one shot except for the one time I'm forced to.

My doc finally faxed my pharmacy for the sessonides and some other constipation product i've never used which is "stronger". I guess it will help since my system never had any.

 

[WantToBeReborn]

I suggest discussing the Opiate dose with your Doctor and reiterate your concerns about this constipation issue and the straining, which is risky and stressful on the body.

Higher dose Vitamin C draws water into the gut, so it makes it easier to go. Oranges are good but don't supply the high doses unless you were eating lots. It can go the other way of course and get loose, but finding the balance does not take long. It does need to be a regular addition and can take a few days to make an impact - but it does make a significant difference. Clearly, getting medical advice before altering your medical regime is crucial and I cannot make dose recommendations as such, only comment on what worked for me and that is doses of 1000 mg per day of Vit C and upwards. I've gone up to 5000+ mg of Vit C per day when all else was failing and this worked for me. Magnesium also helps. Vitamins and minerals can be fairly depleted with long term opiate use, especially these two.

The benefit of the vitamin solution is getting your guts to work on their own. The problem with keeping using these medical stopgaps e.g. Suppositories, enemas, etc. is that the bowels get sluggish and the blocking effect becomes two fold, on top of the opiates slowing things down. Definitely crucial to get a maintenance plan going that has less dependence on unreliable pharmacies/script issues - the risks are simply too big and these people often have no proper sense of urgency about this stuff.

When the guts are blocked, a state of fever and infection or even blood poisoning can occur so quickly if not managed, so you are right to be concerned over this.

Edited to add - with pain, tolerance can become an issue swiftly. Look up opioid induced hyperalgesia, whereby the opiates themselves can result in increasing pain levels.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

I suggest discussing the Opiate dose with your Doctor and reiterate your concerns about this constipation issue and the straining, which is risky and stressful on the body.

Higher dose Vitamin C draws water into the gut, so it makes it easier to go. Oranges are good but don't supply the high doses unless you were eating lots. It can go the other way of course and get loose, but finding the balance does not take long. It does need to be a regular addition and can take a few days to make an impact - but it does make a significant difference. Clearly, getting medical advice before altering your medical regime is crucial and I cannot make dose recommendations as such, only comment on what worked for me and that is doses of 1000 mg per day of Vit C and upwards. I've gone up to 5000+ mg of Vit C per day when all else was failing and this worked for me. Magnesium also helps. Vitamins and minerals can be fairly depleted with long term opiate use, especially these two.

The benefit of the vitamin solution is getting your guts to work on their own. The problem with keeping using these medical stopgaps e.g. Suppositories, enemas, etc. is that the bowels get sluggish and the blocking effect becomes two fold, on top of the opiates slowing things down. Definitely crucial to get a maintenance plan going that has less dependence on unreliable pharmacies/script issues - the risks are simply too big and these people often have no proper sense of urgency about this stuff.

When the guts are blocked, a state of fever and infection or even blood poisoning can occur so quickly if not managed, so you are right to be concerned over this.

Edited to add - with pain, tolerance can become an issue swiftly. Look up opioid induced hyperalgesia, whereby the opiates themselves can result in increasing pain levels.

I'd most likely be put on HydromorphContins 18 or 24 at first, I've already had methadone up to 65mg and stayed there for 10 months, didn't experience hyperalgesia at all, I know it exists but I doubt it is common. There's no way I'm not gonna be using opiates for these 2 horrendous pain problems that led me to shooting up Dillies. Thanks for the extra info. I managed to go earlier today, it wasn't diarrhea but I know it's not all what is in there. Turns out the other extra thing I was prescribed was motherfucking PEG 3350 again, Relaxa, but this one doesn't have electrolytes with it. So it's obvious peglyte is preferable and i'm gonna end my supply of peglyte juice before touching the Relaxa. It was time I went anyways, if i didn't go after these 6 days I was gonna go to the ER where they would have put a tube and pump that liquid up my ass...ugh, I remember the one time they did this a long while ago, I had abdominal pain, they kept me overnight and gave me hydromorph shots here and there, gave me a ct of my liver, then they apparently saw something there, turned out it was nothing after another CT with iodine. But they saw a big amount of crap that was stuck there (and I wasn't even an opiate user then) so they did that. The ridiculous amount of diarrhea that followed...

Anyway, suboxone and methadone are both too hardcore when it comes to constipation, many people in the methadone thread confirmed this to me last yeare. Any other opiate I'm gonna be taking is gonna be much less of a problem there that's for sure. Hopefully I will go after I wake up (with sessonides I noticed I tend to go right after waking up when they work well).

 

[Blind Melon]

I switched from Methadone Maintenance to Suboxone and I fucking regret it. I should have just kept tapering down my Methadone dose, 1mg a day until I got to 30-40mgs a day, then down 1-3mgs a week from there. Methadone never constipated me, ever. It did cause me to retain water weight though, that I will not deny.

Of all the Opiates/oids I've taken long term (Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Heroin, Methadone, Suboxone) Suboxone has been the only one to keep me consistently constipated. I have to be very vigilant about my diet and I've been on the drug for months. It also gives me occasional headaches.

That said, it's been very easy to jump down from 16mg a day to 14mg to 12mg to 10mg a day, in the span of a month. This gives me great hope. I know I'll be able to kick this if I stay vigilant.

However if I ever relapse one more time on Opiates down the line (after having lived clean for a while) I'm going straight to MMT and will probably be a lifer. I'm tired of binges, cold-turkeys, binges, detoxes, binges, tapers, binges, cold-turkeys, binges, maintenance, taper, repeat...

 

[WantToBeReborn]

I'd most likely be put on HydromorphContins 18 or 24 at first, I've already had methadone up to 65mg and stayed there for 10 months, didn't experience hyperalgesia at all, I know it exists but I doubt it is common. There's no way I'm not gonna be using opiates for these 2 horrendous pain problems that led me to shooting up Dillies. Thanks for the extra info. I managed to go earlier today, it wasn't diarrhea but I know it's not all what is in there. Turns out the other extra thing I was prescribed was motherfucking PEG 3350 again, Relaxa, but this one doesn't have electrolytes with it. So it's obvious peglyte is preferable and i'm gonna end my supply of peglyte juice before touching the Relaxa. It was time I went anyways, if i didn't go after these 6 days I was gonna go to the ER where they would have put a tube and pump that liquid up my ass...ugh, I remember the one time they did this a long while ago, I had abdominal pain, they kept me overnight and gave me hydromorph shots here and there, gave me a ct of my liver, then they apparently saw something there, turned out it was nothing after another CT with iodine. But they saw a big amount of crap that was stuck there (and I wasn't even an opiate user then) so they did that. The ridiculous amount of diarrhea that followed...

Anyway, suboxone and methadone are both too hardcore when it comes to constipation, many people in the methadone thread confirmed this to me last yeare. Any other opiate I'm gonna be taking is gonna be much less of a problem there that's for sure. Hopefully I will go after I wake up (with sessonides I noticed I tend to go right after waking up when they work well).

Hope you get something sorted.

The hyperalgesia issue didn't happen to me for years, as is the case with the other pain patients I've known who also developed it.

It might be worth asking for a pain management review as there are other combos that can be tried sometimes. It's a tough balancing act for sure!

 

[Hammilton]

I used to have horrendous constipation with methadone, needed manual extraction, and lots of hand sanitizer, lol.

Subs, tho? Never. Taking a dose is like drinking a cup of coffee for me.