I need to STOP...

[Jabberwocky]

Pammy well, generally, I'd say something along the lines of, "Your case workers knows best." You have a couple options though.

1. First, lie/overlook your current cravings and feelings or whatever in order to maintain whatever current regiment you're comfy with atm without your case worker's knowledge or input.
2. Your second option is to be honest with the guy and let him know why don't want to come off your meds quite yet, as you are still experiencing cravings, etc. Here you might risk, as you put it, having them more tightly regulate your doses, thus making it more difficult to dose as you see fit.
3. Third, you could be honest with him about how you prefer to dose your medication, as well as be honest about your cravings and desire to stay on the meds a little longer.

I'd go with option three. I mean, is this guy really so much of a dick to not allow you too take your meds in the most effective way - effective meaning whatever way keeps you from going out and using illegal opioids/going back to your old addictive ways?

Then again, all this said, he's still the expert. So I'd defer to his advice. Just be honest and make sure he knows the whole story - i.e. that you have a preferred dosing strategy and you're not ready to give up the sub yet as you still have more work to do. That would be like ideal case scenario.

How're you doing New Quitter?

 

[pammy]

Thankyou v much for your good advice im seeing him tomorrow for my new script so im going to be totally straight and honest with him,ill explain how im craving a lot lately and im definately not ready to reduce i was on 8mg but had a reduction about 2months ago so maybe he might up my dose back to 8mg?would you say that my subetex definately reduces cravings?i honestly dont reckon ill be ready any time soon either i think i need another solid 12 months on it after all its only been the past 12months that iv been stable on subetex i think thats not very long atall what do you think please?thankyou pamela.

Pammy well, generally, I'd say something along the lines of, "Your case workers knows best." You have a couple options though.

1. First, lie/overlook your current cravings and feelings or whatever in order to maintain whatever current regiment you're comfy with atm without your case worker's knowledge or input.
2. Your second option is to be honest with the guy and let him know why don't want to come off your meds quite yet, as you are still experiencing cravings, etc. Here you might risk, as you put it, having them more tightly regulate your doses, thus making it more difficult to dose as you see fit.
3. Third, you could be honest with him about how you prefer to dose your medication, as well as be honest about your cravings and desire to stay on the meds a little longer.

I'd go with option three. I mean, is this guy really so much of a dick to not allow you too take your meds in the most effective way - effective meaning whatever way keeps you from going out and using illegal opioids/going back to your old addictive ways?

Then again, all this said, he's still the expert. So I'd defer to his advice. Just be honest and make sure he knows the whole story - i.e. that you have a preferred dosing strategy and you're not ready to give up the sub yet as you still have more work to do. That would be like ideal case scenario.

How're you doing New Quitter?

 

[Newquiter]

I think you are right VW.

I made it through the day but I feel real crappy right now. I passed my meeting . Fooled the Dr. I even ate a pretty good lunch after seeing Dr.

I'm in the dumps. Work is going to be tough like this. I made it this far today. I'm going to walk to get a coffee and take a 30. You are right. I have enough to taper properly.
I will listen and go 15-15-30 tomorrow and Saturday. Sunday I will start 15-15-15.
Remember.
I'm new to this dark side...

 

[Newquiter]

A bit shitty TPD.--TBH.

Thinking of taking VW's advise.
Will pop in later.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yea, for sure. Haha, I can only imagine my friend. Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up too much if you do choose to take VW's advice. I mean, this would be a bit more reasonable/realistic than the pressure you're putting yourself under. Although, it is surely admirable.

Again, whatever you choose to do, don't think the less or yourself. What matters is you stick to your overall plan of tapering off this shit successfully. It doesn't make a difference if you do it in 3 days or 7 or two weeks, as long as you do it. And if it is more bearable and manageable for you to take a couple extra day, well, I don't think that's a big deal.

Keep up the good work!!!

@Pammy: Yea, I think the sub certainly reduces cravings - I'm on suboxone maintenance myself. I love it, and it's been working wonders. But I put equal emphasis on therapy/support groups as I do on the suboxone maintenance therapy. I don't think I'd be as successful staying off the heroin without my support groups and therapy sessions. Although certainly suboxone is better than nothing, but on its own I don't think it's enough for most - certainly not for me. To answer your question, technically 8mg should hold you fine. It holds me fine and would most people. In fact, 2-4mg holds me, as well as many other, fine. I'm still new to it though, so I like to choose 8mg to be on the safe side. And if I don't take all the meds everyday, it's not the end of the world. It's there is I need it.

The most important thing is you're as honest as possible with your doctor so that he/she can best help you manage your condition.

 

[VanWeyden]

Hey, I'm not mad at you or sth, but it's a little bit frustrating to see you are not acting according my advice. However, sometimes I forget that 99,9% of the world aren't as familiar with drug (ab)use as I am. Keep going man, getting in at 15 - 15 - 30 seems reasonable as you where only taking 30 mg per day recently.

 

[Jabberwocky]

That is no taper, not even a withdrawal, that is chaos.

Hahahaha, classic BL frustration CHAOS!!!!

As for the feeling of guilt, it won't subside just because you choose to torture yourself and do a dysfunctional taper. You have to deal with this feeling either way. That is the reason why we begged you to talk to your wife. The feelings won't get away as long as you keep your addiction secret.

I just wanted to re-emphasize this nugget of wisdom VW has shared with us earlier. Very good bit of insight.

 

[VanWeyden]

Yea, for sure. Haha, I can only imagine my friend. Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up too much if you do choose to take VW's advice. I mean, this would be a bit more reasonable/realistic than the pressure you're putting yourself under. Although, it is surely admirable.

Again, whatever you choose to do, don't think the less or yourself. What matters is you stick to your overall plan of tapering off this shit successfully. It doesn't make a difference if you do it in 3 days or 7 or two weeks, as long as you do it. And if it is more bearable and manageable for you to take a couple extra day, well, I don't think that's a big deal.

Keep up the good work!!!

Very good advise! The urge to accelerate a taper is driven either by fear or the feeling of guilt in most cases. Fear of not being able to keep up the discipline, and the feeling of guilt for being a "dirty addict". That is dysfunctional and leads to failure in many cases. When dealing with addiction, it is crucial to economize your power. Wasting it on a painful withdrawal when you need to be functional is pointless. You will need it to deal with cravings, to create a lifestile that makes you feel content without drugs etc etc. At least you have proven your degree of determination in the last days

A quote that really taught me patience is from the German scientist Georg Christoph Lichtenberg:

"Trying to change everything at once destroys everything at once."

I'm not sure if I translated it properly, but it is 100% true.

 

[Jabberwocky]

At least you have proven your degree of determination in the last days

^^THIS^^

And nice quote! Right on the money. And you translated it perfectly - a professor of mine in college liked to say the same thing. Similar to some of the cliches that AA has co-opted, such as "One day at a time" & "First things first"... All referring to how this is a process and will take time, but also that there are many different paths we can take, some better others worse, throughout our journey to accomplish our goals. No matter how much we struggle or what amount of pressure we put ourselves under, we will not and can not magically change everything about our circumstances over night. Too true.

It's all about the little things! The glorious little things. So much joy to be found in the little things.

For some reason your quote makes me think of a poem by Peter Handke, entitled "Song of Childhood". Not really sure why... but anywho...

 

[Newquiter]

I found it very difficult to take a 30 lastnite... even though I really craved it. Weird.

But I did. I waited til 7 to take the soma so I could sleep better. It worked. Still woke at 3am but I feel back to sleep soon after. I had to go to the couch not to wake my wife.
I think she's having tough time with death of her dad. Lastnite she told me there's some drama going on about the family business.,. She began crying this morning after my 5 year old said, "Mommy, my laundry basket is full.".
She mumbled something like yes I know. And my project and work and......" then tears.
She's working on her masters and works full time and we have a 3 yr old, 5 yr old and 2- 16 yr olds.
I love her.

I felt better this morning so I'm going against your advise VW. But I will do 15-30. That seemed to help.
I won't beat myself up if I need to alter the taper to more after today. I'm off 120 mg/day. And that's good.
Gotta work all day today. 3 hours til noon. Day 4 I feel somewhat OK. Work will distract me. Its the 3 o'clock fog that gets to me.
See you at 5.

Thanks all.

 

[Darksidesam]

I see your making progress newquiter,

keep it up, and make sure you let us know how you get on.

 

[DexterMeth]

This is the first time I have ever really 'outloud' admitted my problem. I've known for sometime that I do have an opiate addiction.
I have to deal with it pretty -*+-&% soon or I don't know physically what will happen.
Let me introduce my self and situation. Then maybe I can get some advise from the forum?

I run a small construction company. For the last few months I have been able to simply make 'appearances' to make sure things are running smoothly. After these appearances I can barely make it a mile away before I almost robotically pop an oxy.
My problem is that I have found a pretty reliable source of 30mg oxycodone. I have a prescription for 750 mg Vicodin/ibuprofen for a legitamate lower back disk hemorrhage. That also qualifies me for a prescription of SOMA. On top of these I have a reliable source of zanax.
My regimine:
Lately:
30 mg oxy at 10 am. 30 more oxy around 1 or 2 pm. 30-45 more oxy at 5ish. At around 6-7 pm i take 2 mg zaxax and then an hour after that usually before i eat (first meal aside from coffee) I take 2 soma's. Then a few hits of weed.
I used to be able to keep the oxys to no more than 15-20 mg/day after work. But always fearing 'running out of perks
I bought a few hundred of them. Prior to getting this 30 mg source I also hourded a bunch of 5's, 750's 10's of percocets.

Problem(if not already obvious)- I need to stop this *&%* BS.
Next problem - I'm happily married with 4 kids and a successful business.
I cannot let anyone know! Not my wife. Not my Doctor. Not my clients. NO ONE!

I need some advise. I told the 30 mg source I won't buy anymore and I have 30 or so left... and a bottle full of assorted mg perks.
I'm afraid of the serious physical affects of going cold turkey. I'm 42.
I also see the BS I'm telling myself every Sunday 'Tomorrow I will start cutting down.'
I know the solution is obvious. But maybe someone can help me with specifics. I need to detox 'quietly'.
I quit alcohol 2 years ago cold turkey. And cigarettes the same ten years ago. I truely want and need to quit. Just as I did alcohol and tobacco.
Help?
I'm probably what you could call a barely 'funtioning' opiate addict. Yes. I said it. And That seems to be the easy part.
The problem is that the opiates are beginning to take away my functionality. I won't take perks at work but that's what I use the Vicodin for. Lately, when I do have to work the full day...I can barely think ..by 4 pm.
I wake up hateing what I'm doing to myself each day. No ...I'm not suicidal or that type.
I'm just very angry its gone this far.
I'm going to cut back the zanax by one pill this week. I'm at 2. ( I used a 1/2 during the few weeks I stopped drinking)
I will cut the SOMA to 1 1/2 at night ( they are actually the only things that make me feel better)
As I think I'm planning to substitute these and a bit of pot for when? I hopefully? Quit?

Any help out there for me? No Doctors. No confessions. No NA.
Am I just being a baby? And should drop the oxy's cold?
Advise?

Do your research on kratom. It's legal, and more effective than tramadol. Switching to suboxone or methadone would render your vics useless.

 

[Jabberwocky]

OP - regarding your choice not to increase you taper dosage, which would provide a more reasonable taper imho, well, I wouldn't worry about it.

Bottom line, do what you feel comfy with. Again, if you feel like it's too much and need a little extra, as long as you don't go over VW's suggested schedule, you are fine. But, then again, if you choose to use less, and get through the somewhat increased discomfort, well, all the more power to you.

Opioid w/d sucks, but it is far from impossible to survive. I'm done it probably 30 or more times, cold turkey in almost all cases. It'll come to an end and you'll be a lot happier.

No matter what: Keep up the good work!

And my sympathies go out to your wife. Of course, I would implore you, even in your current state, to do all you can to comfort her. But, then again, given your post, I'm sure you can manage this. Still, I felt like it would be proper to emphasize it again. There is nothing like a supportive partner. Be there for her so she might better be there for you. Teamwork baby, even if you don't discuss your current state, you can still work through her problems with her and maybe gain a little insight into you own, even if not explicitly. I'm rambling now...

Reading your post about your wife makes me miss my own partner ...

 

[Newquiter]

Yes TPD.

I have found 15 + a 5/325 at noon and a 30 at 5pm has resulted in much less misery.
I didn't feel tool bad today and the 3 o'clock fog was chicken soupy... not pea soupy today.
I will go on this schedule until I feel 'normal' ---if that will happen. Then drop to straight 15 at noon and 15 + 10/325 at night.

I will continue 2 zanax + 2 soma until I'm rid of the oxy.

Seems to be stabilizing. Thanks for the web based NA.

I REALLY appreciate it.

 

[Exstaglee]

I know this is ridiculously long, but I feel like I relate a lot to what you're going through and hope some of what I have to say can help you get through this...

I tapered down to nothing and stayed clean from all opiates for almost 1.5 years, until I had a major bicycle accident and messed up my already bad back, again. I had surgery for a bone deformity when I was 15, I'm 27 now. I tapered and was clean for the 1.5 yrs when I was 25. This is how I did it…

I worked part time at Best Buy in the Geek Squad, had my own thriving business on the side doing home computer repair and I also fixed up broken laptops with a friend to sell on the internet/ebay at a nice markup. I also sold lots of weed through a grower I've known for years. I was making good money and had little overhead. This was during the whole time that I was taking my problem drug, Norco's. I was scripted 8 a day, 240 a month. I also was scripted 3 30mg mscontins (extended release morphine), 4 5mg valiums and 2 Baclofen, can't remember the mg of those.

I devised this plan over a long period of time to taper and quit. Kept planning to do it but always had a bullshit reason not to. Then after a heavy acid trip that I had on my own I had a major change of thought process with it all and started to take it seriously, but at the same time not as serious in other ways if that makes sense...

I first went after the 30mg mscontins. I told my doctor that I felt I didn't need one. Before I told her this though I space out as far as possible taking the mscontins. So instead of taking 1 in the morning, one at lunch and 1 before bed, I would try to not take one for as long as possible and before I knew it I was able to go long enough to take only 2 in a day. I didn't touch the valium or the Baclofen, those I continued to take as usual.

I was waaay abusing the Norco's, taking between 12 - 20 a day. I had a couple hook ups for more of them and I had this obsession with them, I loved them more than Oxy, more than Dilaudid, more than anything else for some reason. I convinced myself that I liked more how the high felt; a little heavier and it helped my sciatica a lot. When I say I convinced myself, I mean to say that I would lie to myself in any way imaginable to come up with a good enough reason to take them. I would go so long without taking any and then wham, I'd get sick of being sick and take 8 at a time to catch a buzz. This went on for awhile. I stayed at all the meds I said above except for 2 mscontins instead of 3 for about 3 months I think? And then I made one of the hardest but best decisions of my life. I was living with a very close friend at the time who was a roommate and I had a talk with him. We decided that he was going to give me my Norco's from now on and he'd put them in a jar every night/morning for the day. I would get the 8 that was allowed to me. The bottle would be in his room locked in a box and only he would have the key.

This helped stabilize my thinking. I realized around this time that the only way for ME to get clean from opiates was to use constant positive thinking. When I get dope sick I get the hot sweats and cold chills. I got good at being in this stage at work, functioning. After this though I start to get major back pain and stomach cramps. A little bit longer, or in some cases at the same time as the above symptoms I would get the shits. The only way I could "stay on top of myself" for lack of a better way of putting it is by constantly thinking positive thoughts. I called them mantra's but I've been told they aren't true "mantra's", whatever…

I would say quotes on repeat in my head like the following…

"I'm capable, I'm smart, I'm strong and I believe in myself" Id say that on repeat for who knows how long while I kept myself occupied with my other jobs/things. I have about 5 other positive mantra's but their personal to me as silly as that sounds so I don't share them with others… But anyways. I realized early on while going through withdrawals at work that I had to scale back a lot of my day to open it up for dealing with the sickness. Exercise was extremely important, along with overdosing on Immodium (it helps withdrawal a lot actually… read up on it), eating very healthy, drinking LOTS of water and taking lots of vitamins.

So at this time I was only working my part time job at Best Buy and selling weed. I stopped all of my computer repair business and the laptop repair with my friend. After 2 or 3 months of this, I can't remember really… I saw my doctor again and asked to be brought down another MSContin. This proved a lot harder than the 3rd one, going down to just 1. I would take it at night. This made it so I was on breakthrough meds all day long (which is what you are on, all breakthrough meds and no "maintenance" meds, read up on the difference if you want b/c it's a big one). I was able to get decent sleep because of the Baclofen and the MSContin which was a huge thing for getting through the withdrawals. From here I started to give back my pills. What I mean by that is that I would get my 8 for the day and I would go as long as I could without taking any while working, saying my mantra's, walking and riding my bike every day and doing all the stuff I said above. After awhile I was able to put Norco's back into the jar, and when my friend would find Norco's in the jar he would only make sure that 8 remained and would take the ones I was able to save and "put them back" in the locked box that only he had the key for.

This is where I was hanging on by a thread, for probably not that long of a time but GOD DAMN did it feel like forever. I was always in constant stabbing back pain at my tailbone and sciatica down my left leg, all day. The never ending back pain was by far the worst for me. This isn't for others but was for me because I've always had a degenerated back with all sorts of problems. I would take the Norco's and the withdrawal would make me smell, sweat, fart involuntarily, runny nose, watery and itchy eyes, feel pretty shitty, but with mantra's and work (work was a great distracter) I was able to keep on moving forward.

Then I started to realize that I couldn't go below 6 without major problems. I would have the shits so bad that I could barely work and back pain so bad I could barely sit. I'd overdose on Immodium to the point that I'd have horrible stomach cramps. Add on the back pain and I felt like I had to do something else. Again the mantra's are WHAT SAVED ME, if it wasn't for the constant positive thinking and outlook I don't know how I would have kept my head up through all of this ordeal. I came up with another "how about I kick my ass" plan and decided that I would setup my schedule where I would have 3 days off in a row. These were "kick days" where I wouldn't take ANY opiates for 3 days then back to work and back to normal on the 4th. These were pure hell. Going into day 3 cold turkey of a 30mg MSContin and 8 Norco a day opiate habit was pretty shitty, although unfortunately I've had much worse (but that's a different story altogether).

These kick days made a great dent in the problem of not being able to get past 6. I was able to start going down to 4, 1 at a time spaced out through the day. I then told my doctor that I wanted off the 30mg MSContin and would like to up the Baclofen. Sleep is very important when you're in withdrawal, your body has to rebuild and that's it's time… I'll start wrapping this up now, but in short I was able to slowly taper down until I was taking 4 a day for about 2 months or so? 4 a day worked out well with the Baclofen for nighttime. So mantra's for positive thinking, taking time out of your day for going through the withdrawal, trying to get very involved in work to use it as a distraction, walking a lot, bike riding a lot, MAKING yourself go hang out with friends and do things when all you want to do is rest. All these things combined brought me to being free of opiates. After the first month was done I started to feel like my brain was waking up from a long long nap and it was grumpy. PAWS or whatever they call it, but don't even read up on it imo, don't believe everything you read. Don't expect anything of the withdrawal, it's different for everyone and by having expectations you can make it a whole lot worse for yourself. Try your best to take it slow and try your best to catch yourself when you start making the panic decisions that you know are just lies to yourself.

You own your own business which is great, that can be used as a great tool to get you through this by distracting you from the physical and psychological symptoms. And when you start getting down on yourself for being "an addictive personality", remind yourself that it's probably that addictive personality that made your own business happen. You suffer back pain, which I suffer too, and to me that put a whole different spin on things and I'll spare everyone from going into it. But if you ever want to PM me to talk about the chronic back pain drain, I'll be happy to chat. I know what that pain is like and what it does. Don't underestimate what your up against but also don't underestimate what you're capable of.

Ok I'll STFU now. Take care and be strong, know it's temporary. "This too shall pass" (one of the main mantra's I used). Peace

-Exstaglee

 

[VanWeyden]

Great you're doing good, quiter! If you feel comfortable with less, it is of course abslolutely legit to take less Keep going!

 

[Jabberwocky]

NQ: Yea, hopefully the weekend will provide you with some good quality time. Time to spend with your partner, as well as by/on your own self. Be well OP, you're in our thoughts and our hearts. It would be awesome if you'd check back in sometime today or tomorrow and let us know how things are going

 

[Newquiter]

Hi guys. I'm still here. No time to write. I will check back in later. Wife will be busy.
I've stuck to the plan.
Really ALL. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

[Newquiter]

I find it truely amazing that each and every contributor on this thread has helped me in some manner...EXACTLY at the time I needed it.
So here's a thank you note for each of your contributions.
I'd like to thank VanWeyden first but I can't. That goes to 'the jerk' Missykins, that made me quite angry but has now forced me to prove her wrong. I had to really control myself and be polite.... But I think I needed to here her tell me this:
" IMO, you need to go to rehab. You are taking a lot of drugs, and you are a polydrug user,"
I'm sorry, Missykins, but that got a real strong 'Fuck you, I do!' out of me. That's not real nice of me. But that was then. So thank you.

Somehow VW, you were there right when I needed technical advice.
" Maybe I didn't explain it understandable, but I will make this clear once again:

Today (Thursday) you take 30 mg in the morning, 15 mg at noon, 30 mg in the evening. Tomorrow (Friday) & the day after (Saturday) you take 15 mg in the morning, 15 mg at noon, 30 mg in the evening Sunday & Monday you take 15 mg in the morning, 15 at noon, 15 in the evening and so on. And you stick to 2mg Xanax and 2 Soma in the evening the whole time."

You are my technical advisor. .
This really helped,
" If you want to go from 100 mg to 30 mg instantly, you can also take a week off from work and go cold turkey. It doesn't work that way. Especially not if you are like "OK, I need to be functional at the appointment today, I'll take an extra vike". That is no taper, not even a withdrawal, that is chaos."
You were right. It was fuckin chaos. That 30 at night was very helpful.
Although I may frustrate you with my impatience, I am trying to follow your directions. So thank you.

Toothpastedog... I think your general interest in my situation resulted in the help you gave me.
"All I know for sure is that, if you stay at 30 for a couple days, it will get way, way better. Even a day or two from now you'll notice a change for the better. Three-five days from now you'll be near normality.
Keep up the good work OP!!! Just don't press yourself too hard. A taper shouldn't be as painful as cold turkey, and it sounds like you're going through it."
I was feeling pretty shitty then... and the small hope of feeling better is what you gave me.
I think we would be friends in the real world.

You also had a hand, Fascination, with both your obvious femininity and this encouragement just when I needed it, " I hope that the rest of today goes quickly and that your physical symptoms are bearable. Much love and support."
I was thinking that exact same thought.

I think I have 2 mantras now.
Thank you, darksidedsam, for this one, "you didnt take these before, so you dont have to keep taking them, you need to taper and come off them"

And so yes, Extaglee, thank you for the mantra idea. As of today, I have begun chanting, "I'm feeling better today"

 

[Fascination]

You're welcome hon. I'm so happy that you seem to be doing well.
I want to tell you a little story. So years ago when I was on methadone I would try to taper down. I would ask the nurse to lower my dose and after about 10 mgs of it being lowered, I would start to feel sick. Then I would go to the clinic the next day begging to have my dose raised back up (with the nurses and doctors grinning knowingly). Well this went on for awhile. Eventually I gave up and stayed on my regular dose.
Then a family friend came to stay with me because he needed a place to stay. He ended up staying with me for almost a year. Then I kicked him out. Why? Because I found out he had been stealing half my methadone dose (I had weekly takehomes) for almost a year. After I calmed down from the anger I felt toward this person, I realized something. I had felt no withdrawals! And I wasn't getting half my prescribed dose almost daily! Why? Because I didn't know it! I realized how much of WDs are mental. That gave me the strength to start tapering my methadone dose and get off of it.
Our minds are powerful things (especially mine- Hee), they can make us think we feel worse than we really do. Even though that story is kind of embarrassing for me to share (I feel like an idiot not knowing half my dose was being stolen for so long), I thought it might help you to hear it. Much love sweetie!