I need help

[ADubbs]

Here's my story. I'm a healthy 30 year old engineer who has never taken MDMA in the past. At a bachelor party about 5 weeks ago I took MDMD twice over 3 days, about .2g each time, untested. Felt fine after the first time, maybe a little tired. The second time I took 20 mg of adderall 3 hours before the roll. I really didn't feel the adderall, it's never had much effect on me besides sleeplessness. After I took the MDMA I had a horrible reaction, puking, tremors, shakes, blurry vision, barely any sleep, no appetite. This lasted for 4 days. On the 4th day I took Imovane for sleep which was prescribed to me by an Icelandic doctor (on vacation). Over he next few weeks I improved and felt pretty much 100%.

On on the forth week I had another bachelor party and smoked lots of weed and drank a lot of beers. The second night of this it hit me all over again, except this time I had a few brain zaps when falling asleep and crazy sensitivity to loud noises. I took the imovane for three nights, and in 5 days I was sleeping good. Still a few floaters but basically back to normal. I saw my doctor and she told me to wait it out.

After 10 days of complete abstinence from any substances, I fired up Pornhub and had a little fun. A couple hours later it hit me all over again, felt like I did the second time I took MDMA. I guess jerking it releases serotonin? It's been 7 days nice and it's been horrendous. I can't sleep, my body is tremoring, pains/pins and needs in legs and feet, thumping heart, crying a few hours a day, floaters here and there, nausea, tinnitus, brain zaps when falling asleep, numbness in face, pressure headache, no appetite, and literally no sleep or only a few hours each night. The only time I feel slightly better is when I hike my dog. I've been taking fish oil and other vitamins and have been forcing myself to eat right but it's so bad I feel like I'm going psycho and it's affecting my work. I'm especially worried because things are NOT improving. I'm so paranoid to sleep because of the brain zaps and tremors, and pain in my and feet. Saw my physician assistant yesterday and she wants me to go on Paxil and do a one week long out patient program. I heard horrible SSRI stories though so I'm not sure about that route. I'm really worried and can't go on like this, I need something. I feel if I just slept for a week I'd feel a lot better. The PA said Paxil helps you to sleep, and it will help rebalance the serotonin in my body. I never had depression before this, but I did have slight anxiety....but nothing that was major.

What should I do??? I'm really worried I did long term damage. I can handle a couple more weeks of it, or even if my symptoms started to improve I'd be happy but I can't stay like this and continue working. I have "Windows" throughout the day where I feel pretty good....but then there's times I can barley function and feel extreme nausea.

 

[BlueBull]

I've had some of the same issues as you have. Also after a weekend of rolling too much. That was a bit worse than what you did but 2 times in 3 days on a high dose is too much. 200mg is a high dose, for someone without a tolerance it's a really high dose. It took me a while to recover and indeed benign things like weed, sex,... seemed to intensify the symptoms. Or when I was starting to fall asloop or really sleepy, that's when the brain zaps would be at their worst. What helped me a lot is rigorous daily exercise, it makes the symptoms subside for a while and I am pretty convinced it speeds up recovery as well. It subsides though, might take a few weeks, in my case almost 2 months. It's not permanent damage. In fact I'm pretty convinced at least part of it is anxiety, probably already present anxiety compounded by rebound anxiety. That together with I dunno some temporary hormonal issue or something. Main thing is, it's temporary, it takes a WHOLE lot more to do real permanent damage to yourself

Oh by the way, lay off the weed completely, in case the issue is anxiety-linked, that's about the worst thing you can do. Weed can be relaxing but it can also cause or amplify anxiety in people prone to it. And of course should you ever decide to try again, test your drugs, this is not optional

 

[ADubbs]

lay off the weed completely, in case the issue is anxiety-linked, that's about the worst thing you can do. Weed can be relaxing but it can also cause or amplify anxiety in people prone to it. And of course should you ever decide to try again, test your drugs, this is not optional

Thanks so much for your response, I really do appreciate it. Yesterday i was in a really bad place, balling my eyes out on the floor saying I'm not going to get better. I think some if it is anxiety based, at least the crying parts. The not sleeping part is the worst. I should be exhausted but I'm not!

Yes I'm done with weed and MDMA for life, I only smoked a few times a month, but if I was really high I'd get bad anxiety. I quit coffee, and I'm not drinking for AT LEAST 6 months. My girlfriend thinks I had clinical anxiety before this but she's not a doctor so that's just her opinion.

Nice to know that sex exacerbated your symptoms, would it set you into a complete relapse or just a little bit? It seems everytime I relapse I get worse.

 

[ADubbs]

Does the improvement happen continually? Or is it possible it gets worse before it gets better? I just feel like I'm not on an upward trend like i was the previous times. I might ask the doc for some sort if sleeping pill...i think something short term would benefit me, let me body rebuild a but even though it's not REM sleep. Anyone have experience with going that route?

 

[BlueBull]

For me it went a bit worse before it got better each time yeah. It was like what I was experiencing was coming in waves, each wave a little less high than the one before

Sex didn't set me into a complete relapse, but it dramatically worsened my brain zaps and heart palpitations for a short while. Usually only an hour, sometimes two

 

[Pallyress]

Reading your post in the recovery thread, and then here, I looked up your symptoms (superficially).

Brain zaps are not really understood scientifically, but are known. It is assumed to be linked with serotonin levels, perhaps also norepinephrine levels. It is known to occur when people stop to quickly on antidepresants, and believed to be caused by serotonin levels going to low, simultaneously as brain tried to adjust the deficiency.

During sex serotonin levels are elevated (together with dopamine, oxytocin, ++), and after orgasm is achieved it will drop. Possible not as quickly as dopamine drops, but it will drop.

A deficiency in serotonin levels can increase libido, posible as a mean to "self medicate". Too high serotonin levels are linked with low libido, and often antidepressants can cause this.

This mecanism, with experiencing relapses after sex, seem to support the link between brain zaps and serotonin deficiency.

Anxiety and difficulties sleeping are also linked with having too low levels of serotonin.

Feeling depressed and that it will never get better is also linked with too low levels of serotonin.

Atypical depressions (they not rare, even if the name suggests it) are depressions where the subject can react possitive to possitive events, but falls back in despair/depression. Meaning that they fulfill the description of "normal" depression, but are not lethargic to good news. It fluctuates more, with good and bad days/episodes.

All these symptoms I've mentioned here can be caused by too low levels of serotonin, or inhibition to use serotonin already present in the brain/parts of brain.

If you are very worried about SSRI's, there are other antidepressants to choose from. Mitrazapine is an antidepressant which increases the serotonin production (not an SSRI), promotes sleep and appetite, reduces anxiety and even used in treatment of PTSD.

I believe that the suggested drug from your doctor has same qualities, just being an SSRI. Particular brands also used in treatment for anxiety/PTSD, as your inability to feel tired even when sleep deprived probably is caused by hyper alertness. This is something seen in patients with lot of anxiety, or certain phases of PTSD, where part the autonomous nervous system is constantly on "high alert".

I would agree with your doctor that you would probably benefit from using a SSRI (or other antidepressant) . Yes, some have bad experiences from them, but it doesn't mean they will be bad for you. If you are very anxious about using them, try finding out more about it. There are different medications, used in different situations. Your reluctance against medications can even be part of your anxiety, as your health was damaged due to recreational drug use.


This is just some semi-qualified guesswork. I haven't experienced what you have, but I have PTSD, and have experienced all kinds of weird symotoms, some similar to what serotonin deficiency can cause (no doubt I suffer from that, trying to figure out how to fix it, so that's why I've been reading uo on this so much).

Best of luck.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I quit coffee, and I'm not drinking for AT LEAST 6 months.

SO you put yourself into caffeine withdrawal and alcohol withdrawal while suffering from a reaction to whatever the fuck you took .

Depending on how much you drank and how long,

every single symptom you report could be Alcohol Withdrawal

 

[ADubbs]

For me it went a bit worse before it got better each time yeah. It was like what I was experiencing was coming in waves, each wave a little less high than the one before

Sex didn't set me into a complete relapse, but it dramatically worsened my brain zaps and heart palpitations for a short while. Usually only an hour, sometimes two

Hmm...seems like your experience was much more mild than mine. Did you have the pins and needles in the feet/lower legs and hands? This is what has me most worried. I still have a few floaters, but no blurred vision or halos really. Is this a good sign? The third time I got Serotonin Syndrome (At least I think it was, my pupils were huge, sweating, shaking, diarrhea), I took a 3.5mg of Zopiclone to try and sleep...only slept 1.5 hours. On the third night after this though, I actually slept like 7 hours...but since then it's been a downward spiral.

 

[ADubbs]

Reading your post in the recovery thread, and then here, I looked up your symptoms (superficially).


This is just some semi-qualified guesswork. I haven't experienced what you have, but I have PTSD, and have experienced all kinds of weird symotoms, some similar to what serotonin deficiency can cause (no doubt I suffer from that, trying to figure out how to fix it, so that's why I've been reading uo on this so much).

Best of luck.

Thanks for that, great write up I really do appreciate it. Everything I've researched says I do have brain damage since I have the zaps, sensations in feet/head, and most of all the eye floaters. I never should have combined it with Adderall, ugh! Reason I'm worried about additional drugs is that everyone says to avoid them if your having a LTC, as the SSRIs can inhibit new Serotonin Axon growth, which is bad. There is a poster (FirstBadComedown) who highly recommends against it, but he does recommended small doses of Benzos for sleeping. I'm certainly not trying to discredit you, just looking at all view points.

I'm wondering though if an orgasm can release enough serotonin to re-send me into Serotonin Syndrome, since my system was already severely compromised. It sure felt like it. Cognitively I do feel better than last week, and my emotions aren't running as crazy, but sleeping is just as difficult and the hand/feet/face/head tingling isn't getting better, so weird.

Again thanks for your assistance, I'll be sure to ask my doc about the additional options.

 

[ADubbs]

SO you put yourself into caffeine withdrawal and alcohol withdrawal while suffering from a reaction to whatever the fuck you took .

Depending on how much you drank and how long,

every single symptom you report could be Alcohol Withdrawal

Ummm...I wasn't an alcoholic by any means before...maybe 5 or 6 beers on the weekends only...so no. And I haven't drank coffee for a month now....so that addiction is kicked. Thanks for your input?

 

[Pallyress]

Thanks for that, great write up I really do appreciate it.


I'm wondering though if an orgasm can release enough serotonin to re-send me into Serotonin Syndrome, since my system was already severely compromised. It sure felt like it.

Just a quick comment: it's not serotonin syndrome (that would have been during the mdma trip), you are so far describing symptoms on serotonin deficiency.

Serotonin syndrome: toxic due to too high levels of serotonin.

Serotonin deficiency: to low levels of serotonin.

I actually read about damages from mdma tonight, which I think explains the condition many experience after mdma use:

https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-slideshow/

The part explaining damage is called Part II: neurotoxicity. The theory is simply put that after mdma, when there is lack of serotonin in synapse (?), the transporters are vulnerable for dopamin attaching, this causes harm. This is a damage caused after mdma, different from serotonin syndrome (but both could occur. The stronger you roll, the more depleated afterwards).

Taking adderall increases dopamine, so it could cause more damage due to that, in addition of causing cross tolerance.

Which may explain why some people, like myself, seemingly don't suffer notable harm from mdma. I got adhd, meaning I have a dopamine deficiency, so as long as I run my meds down after rolling (which I do), I'm fine.

Might be that your serotonin transporters are damaged, so you are not able to make good use of the serotonin your body produces, idk. Might br something to look into. Some talk about low tryptophane diets, that it could possible make it better. If that is the case, it could be that you should avoid ssri, but it's pretty evident that you don't have an abundance of serotonin available, from the symptoms you describe.

 

[BlueBull]

Hmm...seems like your experience was much more mild than mine. Did you have the pins and needles in the feet/lower legs and hands? This is what has me most worried. I still have a few floaters, but no blurred vision or halos really. Is this a good sign? The third time I got Serotonin Syndrome (At least I think it was, my pupils were huge, sweating, shaking, diarrhea), I took a 3.5mg of Zopiclone to try and sleep...only slept 1.5 hours. On the third night after this though, I actually slept like 7 hours...but since then it's been a downward spiral.

Yeah I had those for about two weeks. No real visual distortions, though the world seemed 'off' in some way. Also brain zaps, sudden tremors in my hands that lasted for half a minute, heart palpitations, blood pressure drops, sudden diziness, balance issues and acute depression

 

[ADubbs]

What should I look into regarding the SSRIs you think?

 

[Pallyress]

What should I look into regarding the SSRIs you think?

I would be overstepping my competence if I answer that. My knowledge is mostly based on my own situation, and not being a doctor /therapist, my knowledge is superficial.

What I did was to look into my own symptoms. I was at my therapist today. The reason why I asked if mitrazapine would be suitable for me, is due to lack of appetite of sleep, both which is a known side effect of mitrazapine. We hope this will help me eat more and sleep better. Not getting enough sleep and food increases symptoms of depression.

Write down what's causing you the most issues, and also what worries you with SSRIs. Using such a list when talking with your doctor helps you to remember all the questions. I always forget something without such a list.

If your doctor already suggested a medicine, read up on it, and let him/her know about any worries you have.

BTW, if you never felt much from taking stimulants, it could be that they actually make you more calm, and helps you collect your thoughts. Typically people with ADHD don't get a rush out from stimulants, some even don't get trouble sleeping. If you are heading in the direction of getting thorough examinations, it could be a thing to check out, even if that's not your most pressing issue at the moment.

 

[ADubbs]

I would be overstepping my competence if I answer that. My knowledge is mostly based on my own situation, and not being a doctor /therapist, my knowledge is superficial.

What I did was to look into my own symptoms. I was at my therapist today. The reason why I asked if mitrazapine would be suitable for me, is due to lack of appetite of sleep, both which is a known side effect of mitrazapine. We hope this will help me eat more and sleep better. Not getting enough sleep and food increases symptoms of depression.

Write down what's causing you the most issues, and also what worries you with SSRIs. Using such a list when talking with your doctor helps you to remember all the questions. I always forget something without such a list.

If your doctor already suggested a medicine, read up on it, and let him/her know about any worries you have.

BTW, if you never felt much from taking stimulants, it could be that they actually make you more calm, and helps you collect your thoughts. Typically people with ADHD don't get a rush out from stimulants, some even don't get trouble sleeping. If you are heading in the direction of getting thorough examinations, it could be a thing to check out, even if that's not your most pressing issue at the moment.

Thanks. Yeah it actually used to calm me down, mellow me out so to speak, but it would make me want to procreate like a rabbit and not sleep. My GF thinks I have ADHD....which I might, my father has it. Does Mitrazapine help with anxiety?

Today I felt OK....real nauseous at one point, only one break down and cry session...so far. The tingling/numbness is mostly on the left side of my face, and back of my head.

I've been taking a supplement of Curcumin daily....I heard this has mild SSRI properties....but FirstBadComedown, a former frequent poster on here, stated its a good supplement. Wonder if your dealings with PTSD if you've heard about this? Is the theory behind a low tryptophan diet that it reduces serotonin activity....allowing the axons to resprout?

 

[Pallyress]

Yeah, think the tryptophane diet is about that. I don't know much about the science about it. Also, I assume that would mean that one decreases available serotonin even further, so it could be a rough route to take.

If you are having symptoms of adhd, which mean a dopamine deficiency, I would assume it would be even harder. With dopamime going up and down, and serotonin very low, it would probably make the mood swings very difficult to cope with. ADHD makes it more difficult to self regulate one's emotions. Think dr. Rick Barkley (look him uo on YouTube) said that the emotions was regumated similar to equivalent 2/3 of the age of the Adhd person. Meaning if you are 30, you are emotionally like a 20 year old. Which is why ppl with adhd often are seemed like youthful and playful, in a positive way. Or over dramatic, in a negative sense.

 

[Jabberwocky]

What should I look into regarding the SSRIs you think?

You say you have had Serotonin Syndrome 3 times (you almost certainly did not) -- and now you want to take a Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor -- the class of drug most responsible for causing Serotonin Syndrome ??

Really?

The most likely explanation is that you have HPA dysregulation. Your Hypothalamus Pituitary Adrenal Axis is in overdrive -- leading to a highly adrenalized state.

Find a Medical Doctor that understands HPA dysregulation and can prescribe the proper medication.

 

[ADubbs]

Well maybe i didn't, but I certainly showed lots of symptoms of it. The doctor put me on Remeron, which looks like it has some use in regulating HPA, maybe it'll help? I'll give it a few weeks and see how I'm doing..

You say you have had Serotonin Syndrome 3 times (you almost certainly did not) -- and now you want to take a Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor -- the class of drug most responsible for causing Serotonin Syndrome ??

Really?

The most likely explanation is that you have HPA dysregulation. Your Hypothalamus Pituitary Adrenal Axis is in overdrive -- leading to a highly adrenalized state.

Find a Medical Doctor that understands HPA dysregulation and can prescribe the proper medication.

 

[ADubbs]

How has your experience with Remeron been? Going on 6 days now its been helping me sleep a bit, but still had one sleepless night. Hasn't really helped my physical sensations at all.

Yeah, think the tryptophane diet is about that. I don't know much about the science about it. Also, I assume that would mean that one decreases available serotonin even further, so it could be a rough route to take.

If you are having symptoms of adhd, which mean a dopamine deficiency, I would assume it would be even harder. With dopamime going up and down, and serotonin very low, it would probably make the mood swings very difficult to cope with. ADHD makes it more difficult to self regulate one's emotions. Think dr. Rick Barkley (look him uo on YouTube) said that the emotions was regumated similar to equivalent 2/3 of the age of the Adhd person. Meaning if you are 30, you are emotionally like a 20 year old. Which is why ppl with adhd often are seemed like youthful and playful, in a positive way. Or over dramatic, in a negative sense.

 

[Pallyress]

How has your experience with Remeron been? Going on 6 days now its been helping me sleep a bit, but still had one sleepless night. Hasn't really helped my physical sensations at all.

I take it because of PTSD, to help eating and sleeping. My stimulants prevents flashbakcs, and hope is that Remeron will help on flat mood, eat and sleep. Stimulants prevents the bad things/mood, but makes me eat less. Then I sleep less, and it gets into a negative spiral.

It has helped me regarding the mood. It's still early, but last day I've felt a little more positive, compared to just functioning and not malfunctioning. I think I feel a little less overwhelmed by things. I get tired in evening, but need to combine with melatonin to sleep. Melatonin is created from serotonin, so low serotonin levels can cause insomnia.

It also changed my tase buds. I have quit smoking because it tastes horrible. Not sure if it will last, but serotonin apparently affect how we taste things. Depressed ppl use more sweeteners, or so I read. Hope the not wanting smokes keep up, I don't really feel like pushing it with willpower in my current situation, it's just a nice side effect.

I feel better after a couple of weeks using Remeron, but I think it can be due to side effects, not the intended effect of the drug. Eating and sleeping better is going to help on mood. Not eating will make any person lethargic after a while.

Also, I'm on holiday and are surrounded with family and friends more than usual. (the right) company helps. I'm allowed to have my moments where I just sulk and wait for meds to work (don't have to fake being happy and able), and having people around me helps taking my mind away from the dark places.

A little self analysis where one figure out what makes you feel better is as important as medicine. No pill can make you function in a harmful environment. Harmful environment defined as something that makes your symptoms worse, not that the environment is bad per se. Like, for me it would be harmful to go to a big party with lots of stuff happening and having to relate to a lot of (drunk) people. It would likely trigger my ptsd, exhaust me and make me be on guard (with no actual danger being present) . Being with a small group of friends that cares for me and are considerate about my condition is very healty for me. Their mood and routines help me regulate my own mood and routines. I've worked a lot to seperate the feeling of plight and what I feel emotionally/would like, and balance them depending on how I feel that day/week. It changes. And as I get better some stuff changes from being a plight to something I'd like to do. It's still difficult, it's easier to deal with quantifiable measurements, but I don't think I'll get better if I don't improve my listening-to-emotions skills.

We have different diagnosis/causes, so how much this applies to you is for you to tell. And being harmed from drug use is differen, but given that it is a psychedelic, I really think the general psyche well being should also be considered, not only the neuroscience bit.

I imagine it as a pyramid, where one side is genetic neuroscience, one side is medicine and drugs, one side is your environment, one side is diet and exercise. The pyramid is placed on your background/history, determing how firm or fragile the fundation is. On the very top of the pyramid is your mind now, how you feel and function. Some parts building upnto your "now" needs more work, some are fine. Some parts need urgent work, other parts can wait. It's complex, and most of us are not good at building pyramids, even if we know how they should look.

That's my days quota of metaphors spent....