• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

I Like to Draw Pictures of Random Molecules

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>You could always dideuterate it?
Isn't the point of your molecule to make a legal analogue? Deuterium counts as hydrogen. The properties may be a little different, but it's not very well researched.... now replacing the hydrogen wtih http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaonic_hydrogen would probably be a new substance, but unless you have a huge particle accelerator...
 
Hydroxy might hurt the BA I believe. But, maybe you could use an acetyl group, which will metabolize to hydroxy like 4-aco-dmt or heroin?

Like this:
yGYDPwF.png


What about something like this?
mGYM4U4.png

The first I love, think it'd be great. Second not so much, look at F2 & 22. Completely down in activity. Nothing, really unfortunate cos looking at them you'd think they'd be great. Also deuterating them wouldn't be to get around laws, I honestly don't give a fuck about drug laws anymore, the effects profile however is a different matter! Anyway I think deuterating them would only make them slightly smoother, similar to a hydroxy on the amine on PEA's ala HOT-7. I guess this is mostly at beta I'm thinking but still if you're having body-load issues then it's a golden charm, which this substitution may or may not cause.

EDIT: However with F2 & 22 it was with methyls, so perhaps an acetoxy there instead?
 
Well, in 3D it actually overlays extremely closely with both morphian and phenylpiperidine opioids. As for extra bulk, the N-Phenethyl substitution actually works to increase potency quite well in most every opioid. I would venture a guess that it would be extremely potent.

Even the isomer most resembling morphinan has the nitrogen farther away from the aromatic ring than morphine does (one C-C bond is 1.54 angstroms) and I don't know what function the cyclopentane ring may have. Morever, the hydroxy group is on the position that corresponds to C2 in morphinan, which seems to lower MOP activity in the SAR I know. If you rotate it by 180 degrees horizontally, the nitrogen is completely off its place.

image01.jpg


If you're aiming to design a molecule resembling phenylpiperidines (like pethidine), then you need to know that the piperidine ring isn't flat when interacting with MOP receptors but is rather in a chair conformation. In your molecule additional cyclohexane ring between the aromatic ring and the piperidine constrains it so the nitrogen is "pushed away". Or am I not seeing something else?
 
Even the isomer most resembling morphinan has the nitrogen farther away from the aromatic ring than morphine does (one C-C bond is 1.54 angstroms) and I don't know what function the cyclopentane ring may have. Morever, the hydroxy group is on the position that corresponds to C2 in morphinan, which seems to lower MOP activity in the SAR I know. If you rotate it by 180 degrees horizontally, the nitrogen is completely off its place.

image01.jpg


If you're aiming to design a molecule resembling phenylpiperidines (like pethidine), then you need to know that the piperidine ring isn't flat when interacting with MOP receptors but is rather in a chair conformation. In your molecule additional cyclohexane ring between the aromatic ring and the piperidine constrains it so the nitrogen is "pushed away". Or am I not seeing something else?


I'm specifically looking at the 3D conformations of the morphinan and phenylpiperidine opioids, as well as the compound in question. I realised after that the hydroxyl group is in the wrong position, but you can still see from the 3D conformations what I'm talking about:

Meperidine: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/vw3d/vw3d.cgi?cmd=crtvw&reqid=1015007800769262441

Morphine: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/vw3d/vw3d.cgi?cmd=crtvw&reqid=705244037862120859

Compound in question minus n-phenethyl: http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/vw3d/vw3d.cgi?cmd=crtvw&reqid=3248658153260012628

Now I could be missing something, but (other than the misplaced hydroxyl, which is just a brain fart) when I overlay these they overlap just about flawlessly. I'm forced to use pubchem right now because I'm on my cell, so I can't show the actual comparison, but it's pretty clear looking at it just individually and comparing. With the N-Phenethyl it fits quite closely with fentanyl and other N-Phenethyl opioids as well. Have I missed something?
 
Here is another one. This one I am positive of its opioid effects. The n-methylcyclopropyl homologue of this one has been assayed and shown to have good affinity for the opioid receptors[1]. The synthesis shouldn't be extremely complicated, and the rewards will most likely be quite bountiful. I would love to see the N-Phenethyl homologue too.

download2.png


[1] - http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=167448#itabs-2d
 
^ yea I don't think that one will work, phenyl subsitutions are planar, there's way too much strain to connect those oxygens with only 2 carbons in between.
 
Very nice, DL-ark! I'd be interested in seeing that one for sure!!

Here is one that has been tested in the literature with decent results and yet I've never seen it before anywhere, or really anything similar for that matter either. It is a ring-expanded fentanyl analogue, and has been shown to be active at .13 mg.kg in the tail flick test in mice[1]. Again, I believe this would bypass the analogue laws of most countries besides the US. What are we waiting for, let's see it get out there!

download3.png


[1] - https://www.ebi.ac.uk/chembl/compound/inspect/CHEMBL3103259
 
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Making a more potent analogue is not as simple as adding a benzene ring somewhere to a molecule. The reason why this works for various drugs (like bromadol or NBOMe's) is because that additional benzene ring is capable of interacting with another portion of receptors making binding stronger. The N-(2-methoxybenzyl) added to phenethylamines makes NBOMe's look more like LSD if you try to make them overlap like this.

NBOMes_vs_LSD.jpg


Then we could modify NBOMe's substituting 2-methoxybenzyl with some bioisosteric functional groups and end up with analogues from the second row. I'll make an exception and share this.

This is interesting, don't you all think so?
 
This is interesting, don't you all think so?
Of course it is, all of adder's comments are really fascinating.


I'm glad that he is a member of the community, and I guess we dont give him enough credit.
8QIwibV.png

methylphenidate analogues are fun.
the 2c-c analogue I actually drew up on paper a while ago, when adder posted his explanation of why NBOMEs work, I decided to post it.
 
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There's an article called "Molecular Interaction of Serotonin 5-HT2A Receptor Residues Phe339(6.51) and Phe340(6.52) with Superpotent N-Benzyl Phenethylamine Agonists" and the research they've done seems to be against my idea of NBOMe's overlapping with LSD. They checked the affinity of various tryptamines, phenethylamines, and LSD at mutated 5-HT2A receptors and while LSD still had a high affinity at the 5-HT2A receptor with the mutation at F339, NBOMe's did not. So the conclusion is the amide of LSD and the N-benzyl group of 2C-X-NBOMe's bind differently.

Perhaps if we placed an amidoethyl group on phenethylamines, it would bind to the same residue as the amide in LSD, but it's hard to say whether such compounds would have a high potency overall enough to make them interesting, it's possible though.
 
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There's an article called "Molecular Interaction of Serotonin 5-HT2A Receptor Residues Phe339(6.51) and Phe340(6.52) with Superpotent N-Benzyl Phenethylamine Agonists" and the research they've done seems to be against my idea of NBOMe's overlapping with LSD. They checked the affinity of various tryptamines, phenethylamines, and LSD at mutated 5-HT2A receptors and while LSD still had a high affinity at the 5-HT2A receptor with the mutation at F339, NBOMe's did not. So the conclusion is the amide of LSD and the N-benzyl group of 2C-X-NBOMe's bind differently.

Perhaps if we placed an amidoethyl group on phenethylamines, it would bind to the same residue as the amide in LSD, but it's hard to say whether such compounds would have a high potency overall enough to make them interesting, it's possible though.
It would be interesting to test this using the 2-c-c analogue I drew in the post above. It would answer the question I have: can the 2,5 dimethoxy 4 X phenyl substitute for the indole.
 
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because i'm feeling silly in between classes.... Diphenidine-C-B

2m7i7eo.png


edit -- more silliness.... methylenedioxydiphenidine

2v306z4.png





i miss shaggyfin =p
 
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It would be interesting to test this using the 2-c-c analogue I drew in the post above. It would answer the question I have: can the 2,5 dimethoxy 4 X phenyl substitute for the indole.

image.jpg


I think you drew it wrong. Or you mean the phenethylamine's phenyl substituting for the pyrrole part of the indole in tryptamine? I don't think it's possible, if you tried to make DOC overlap in the same way, the alpha-carbon would stick out to the other side.

I don't think it's that simple actually. Even if aromatic rings of phenethylamines and tryptamines interact with the same residue, I doubt that they perfectly overlay. There's a reason why tryptamines need tertiary amines for the best effect while phenethylamines tolerate only primary amines if they are to be psychedelics. And there's a reason why phenethylamines need to have their phenyl rings substituted to have affinity at 5-HT2A receptors and it doesn't seem to be only an electronic effect, these 2 methoxy groups actually seem to bind to two serine residues. But the electronic effect probably plays some important role as well. In both 4-substituted-2,5-DMPEAs and 4-substituted-3,5-DMPEAs the highest density of electrons is at C2, C4, and C6 of the phenyl ring (the summary effect of all substituents). In the study I mentioned in my last post 2C-I and mescaline affinities seem to decrease in a similar manner when there's a mutation at F340. Still mescaline may not be an ideal compound for the test, because it's a weak agonist itself, it's a shame they didn't test a longer alkoxy chain analogue like escaline or allylescaline. However, when you look at the most potent compounds from both groups, you can clearly see that 2,5-DMPEAs don't tolerate 4-alkoxy substituents as well as 3,5-DMPEAs do. Admittedly, there are two 4-alkoxy-alpha-methyl-2,5-DMPEAs in PIHKAL that are psychedelics - TMA-2 (4-methoxy) and MEM (4-ethoxy), but they're also amphetamines and their potency is far lower than their 4-halo analogues. Moreover, while in the mescaline analogues series allylescaline and proscaline are the most potent, the 4-propoxy-2,5-DMA (MPM) is definitely less potent than MEM. 2,5-DMPEAs and 3,5-DMPEAs are clearly different.

Anyway, there are various ways in which people tried to make phenethylamines and tryptamines overlap, but I think it's pointless to assume that certain atoms in 2C-X's have their exact equivalents in tryptamines because there are other factors at play. One theory was that C2 in 2C-X's corresponds to C5 in tryptamines and the 5-methoxy corresponds to the indolic nitrogen. If this worked 100% fine, 7-substituted-5-methoxy-DMT analogues would be as good as 2C-X's, but perhaps there is some steric problem. Perhaps it's actually C6 of the indole that corresponds to the para position in 2C-X's... But then there's some worry about 6-halotryptamines neurotoxicity.

In my opinion it's also possible that both the phenyl group of 2C-X's and the indole of tryptamines may bind to F340 but in such a way that it's impossible to correlate 2,5-dimethoxy substitution with any concrete positions of the indole of tryptamines. I'm sure we will know what's going on and how both phenethylamines and tryptamines bind quite soon.
 
edit -- more silliness.... methylenedioxydiphenidine

2v306z4.png


i miss shaggyfin =p

actually compounds like that are close to ones being made and taken... but I personally just worry a bit that those extra phenyl rings would make it stick to receptors and other stuff pretty damn long. Seems generally not what you want.

and yeah me too @ shaggy lol. sort of, he was a real to mod, too clueless.

I find it interesting how LSD and 25x-NBOMe's have a different electronic distribution going on in the 'middle' (benzylic phenyl of nbome) part. I'd like to check the available amino acid binding groups in the 5-HT2A pocket to match up with them to get a clearer picture of that. Cause if it's a bit dissimilar, who knows what options there are in between so to speak. :) Same story for the diethylamine/amide.
Another question is why the tertiary amine is important in LSD but uncool with the PEAs afaik.

Also that NDEPA structure is known and discussed in PD by HansMeyer in his NXXX thread for those who don't know - most of you do.
 
actually compounds like that are close to ones being made and taken... but I personally just worry a bit that those extra phenyl rings would make it stick to receptors and other stuff pretty damn long. Seems generally not what you want.

was pretty surprised when i looked closer and discovered that diphenidine/methoxphenidine has that amphetamine structure inside it. makes me wonder if it really is possible to bridge the gap between dissociatives and 5HT-2A psychedelics and make a molecule that does both with about the same relative potency.
 
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