i dont see whats so profound about psychedelics...

[killo]

With all due respect i don't get the impression that you are especially enlightened regarding religion/spirituality if you are willing to stereotype the majority of the worlds beliefs in a single sentence :D

I don't see how you can say whether a religion is 'good' or not.

I'm not a buddhist or a buddha so yea I'm using words here. But I definetly have felt what I think to believe an "enlightened state" while under LSD.

No I am not liek that when I'm sober. Cause I don't meditate a good portion of my life like a buddhist and I don't try to lose my desires.

WHAT FOO?

 

[demons]

why didn't you mention being a daily user of benzo's in the first place. that is obviously the reason.

 

[phan]

yeah, man. By far it is due to the benzos. Having taken them on the tail end of a few lsd trips, I know they will kill the rest of the trip. I have never taken at the beginning because I am pretty sure it would deaden the trip. Isn't it common information that a bad trip can be significantly reversed with the administration of valium or such?

 

[MasterOfDeception]

yeah, man. By far it is due to the benzos. Having taken them on the tail end of a few lsd trips, I know they will kill the rest of the trip. I have never taken at the beginning because I am pretty sure it would deaden the trip. Isn't it common information that a bad trip can be significantly reversed with the administration of valium or such?

more like 'muted'. It still affects your psyche/mind but you just don't feel it or something (That's my opinion, not a fact.. I also think Stanislav Grof had stated something similar).

^^^Thats interesting- a very expected byproduct of westernism. Thats where I fall down wehn I trip these days- I tell myself "oh your tripping its just the drug", which makes me feel even more insane for believeing what I've seen.

Indeed very interesting, was thinking something similar * . I don't generally want to see it as ' come on it's just the drug' - I don't want to blame what happens to me on the drug but rather my psyche/mind/feelings etc. This way I think one can get more interesting results..

* I was thinking that it's almost unavoidable for us westerners to wander whether what we lived was 'real' or 'illusion/hallucination' while e.g for native americans there wasn't such a question; ( I think) (If you fly, you fly)

 

[Dondante]

ill also add that a few days after i made this post, i had an EXTREMELY powerful experience on salvia-- the second time ive attained true ego-loss. the first time, all was green, and thats it. there was no me, there was no anything, just green.

... i suppose even PROFOUND, i still saw it as 'just a high.' its difficult to explain, and im sure ill get better at it, as im rather in love with this class of drugs at this point.

I hope redgreenvnes doesn't mind me reposting this, but I thought you might find it interesting. Remember that spirituality need not contradict scientific thought or entail any paranormal phenomenon whatsoever. I still think you are looking at the spirituality issue from the wrong angle. As others have said, meeting God is only an expression ... the expression can be equated to comprehend the absolute (expanding the mind).

For me, spirituality is intuitive ... it's about my connection with the cosmos; my two-way relationship of subject and object (only poles of a single substance). It's about being fascinated by the simple fact that anything exists at all (why should it be so?), and a gratefulness that I am able to experience, period.

[On spiritual aspects of salvia divinorum...]My take on it is fairly scientific, and that makes a certain class of spiritual enthusiasts feel unnecessarily threatened. IMO the spiritual endeavours are efforts to transcend limitations, particularly those gallingly repetitive limitations of flesh - habits of the flesh that feel hellish.

In striving to transcend these (habits of flesh), people can get into a rut by becoming dualistic - thinking flesh is bad and non flesh or spirit is good, and they can create a spiritual direction out of that misconception...

... IMO salvia is spiritual because it opens up more ways to look at who
and what we are, and in looking, we get beyond some annoying habits of
the flesh for a brief time.

... Glimpsing the other side from this monkey body is an odd primal urge, differnt from sex, not motivated with pleasure exactly, something else.
Glimpsing the monkey body from the otherside as I recall (which is not an accurate recollection) is like the charity of the gods, caring, understanding, expansive, and impish.

The psychedelic state is unlocked from timebase, things are extended and overlapped and space itself is expanded - things stay fresh longer, and are smoothed into eachother like a dream.
The quotidian state is locked down to timebase, things expire quickly, space is confined as experience becomes smoothed into a movie of one thing after another.

It brings to mind the CCritical section that some programmers may be familiar with when working with multi threaded processes.
if one thread needs to share data with another thread (each normally proceeds without waiting for completion of steps by the other) then they need to Lock a critical section before the read or write, and unlock it afterwards.
these critical sections become the turnstyles of the manic potential crowds of computer processes.
Psychedelic states seem to let threads flow without critical sections while quotidian states are marshalled in lock steps, with carefully timed and measured signals. Unlike the garden of eden, all expiring quickly instead of staying fresh and hanging around.

this monkey mind typist is not quite in the garden of eden as he composes thoughts about the garden, though a blob of sunlight is kissing his hand from the blind covered window - as if that light was reaching down to take me back soon.

http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8187

 

[untaMe]

I agree with the thread-maker, I can't trust the profound revelations I have on psychedelics because they are just loved up delusions.
I have had various plus-four experiences and several, awful, nightmare trips and have come to the realization that I cannot trust my own thoughts whilst on psychedelics.

 

[Bercilak]

It brings to mind the CCritical section that some programmers may be familiar with when working with multi threaded processes.
if one thread needs to share data with another thread (each normally proceeds without waiting for completion of steps by the other) then they need to Lock a critical section before the read or write, and unlock it afterwards.
these critical sections become the turnstyles of the manic potential crowds of computer processes.
Psychedelic states seem to let threads flow without critical sections while quotidian states are marshalled in lock steps, with carefully timed and measured signals. Unlike the garden of eden, all expiring quickly instead of staying fresh and hanging around.

So... psychedelics are like transactional memory?

 

[Dondante]

Consider the lines above ... psychedelics have certain effects on psychology, perception, and awareness (I left in only one of his examples from the link) ... but that is not the point. The point is that these changes in perspective can allow one to glimpse something that is beyond both the drug and the mind of the person taking it.

 

[Bercilak]

Naturally. I'd say that that's one of the main reasons I take psychedelics actually, and it's why I'm also a fan of dissociatives as well. Leaving the self behind (if only temporarily), was responsible for one of the most positive changes in my life. Up until I was 18 or so, I was an extremely anxious person and always worried about zits and sweating too much. I'd never had a girlfriend, and had trouble meeting new people because I always felt inferior.

I was aware that others were human in the "duh, that's obvious" sense, but I hadn't really integrated it and it's implications into my life. I don't know why, but I hadn't realized that every other person on this planet shits, farts, pisses, sweats, feels like they need to brush their teeth (in first world cultures), vomits, and has had experiences of social rejection and discomfort similar to mine. As soon as I truly became aware of this (shrooms are to thank), things became a lot easier. I have more than decent hygiene, and if someone has a problem with it, fuck them. They're the ones in denial about their own messy monkey nature. :D

That wasn't the only realization. Honestly, it felt like snapping out of a dream---awakening for the first time. That period was one of the most psychologically stormy of my life, brought on doing too many reality bending drugs, having an odd living situation, and doing a lot of philosophy and computer science work. My reality was crumbling around me, and for several months I wondered if I had gone insane, and just was pretending not to be.

These days, I'm still ridiculously picky about women, and I still have trouble meeting new people. I consider myself to be totally insane, and I'm comfortable with it. It's mostly because I reject consensus reality, and find most people to be shallow and vapid, though. More power to them if they find that it works, but it doesn't stimulate me.

I can enjoy the quotidian but I like knowing that there's some depth behind it.

From my reading, redgreenvines' comments have a lot in common with the views of transpersonal psychology. I've been trying to do some reading from the field. I picked up some of Grof's books, and I enjoyed reading a number of Charles Tart's papers I've found online. The nature of ego is particularly important in my mind, and to what degree should an "enlightened" person try to rid themselves of it? Is it healthy to have in some degree in a world where you'll interact with others that are very ego-centric? I stuck a bunch of links at the bottom that are kind of related; all have been really good thinking material.

My thoughts on the nature of reality and personal interaction are still very tangled, and it hasn't sunk in quite yet how far I am from the norm in terms of beliefs about the world. This was illustrated yet again a day or two ago while watching the Democratic debates with a friend's housemates (smart, college educated folks). The women were talking about hair and men, and the men were talking about the candidates responses. It was all very archetypal. My friend and I were the only ones objecting to the lack of concrete policy debate at all on substantive matters. Beyond that, nobody seemed to realize that politics as presented on TV is a giant charade, meaningless on an individual level. All this YouTube "internet democracy" stuff is mental masturbation.

Seeking the Stone - A presentation by McKenna, where he explains his views on human evolution, mushrooms, Eden, and such. Make sure to watch both halves of it, the link to the second part is on the side.
The Nature of Consiousness - A transcribed presentation of Alan Watts' that I think makes a convincing case for adopting the "it's a giant joke" view of the world (very much paraphrasing there).
Slavoj Zizek on "unknown knowns" - I love Zizek, and although he can be a little hard to understand, his speeches are funny and much less dense than his books. This is an incredibly wide ranging talk as well, and has so many worthwhile insights, even in the Q & A part.
Yes, We Are Zombies, But We Can Become Conscious! - Charles Tart - This is a deeply interesting paper, and explores the question of whether our behavior comes from true "consciousness".

P.S. The "transactional memory" thing is a really obscure bit of computer science. It's a method of getting rid of the locked critical sections that RGV mentions. I wasn't being flippant, I promise.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

thirdly im extremely 'unmaterialistic,' in the sense that i really dont care at all about material things. im usually caught up in my own thoughts and spend much of my days alone, thinking. my brain wont stfu.

.

You've completely missed my point. I'm not talking about consumerism.

 

[DivineMomenT]

Some people like burgers, some don't. Some people like it in the ass, some don't. Some people achieve a heightened state of mind by meditating, some by drugs, some naturally. Just because Jonnny had a profound experience with a psychedelic drug, it doesn't mean that you will. The effects of psychedelic drugs are so subjective. So many factors contribute to an enlightening experience, bad experience, nirvana, etc.

Why would someone be weak minded by achieving a profound state through the use of psychedelics. Religious people obtain these states randomly and through meditation. There are many paths to enlightenment and none of them are less genuine than another. Drugs can just be a shortcut to enlightenment.

I have had many life changing experiences that have had a profound impact on my life and my thoughts about life in general. Maybe you are just taking the drugs to "get high." Sometimes these drugs can have a mind of their own and tend to find you. Psychedelics are a catalyst but are not even necessary to achieve enlightenment. I wouldn't call it cheating either. The drugs that have enlightened me the most are amazing compounds that I feel blessed to have been able to take.

Everyone's life is different and everyones trip is different. Maybe your time will come for a mystical/+++/++++....very moving experience but maybe you aren't allowing yourself to reach that level.

I am not against you at all. You make a valid point but every individual on this planet is different and therefore will react to drugs differently and interpret their effects differently. People are probably getting mad because they feel you are discrediting their experiences. It doesn't bother me one bit. I know what psychedelics have showed me and profound isn't even the word to describe it.

 

[ikarma]

every trip ive had has been wonderful, opened my mind to new thoughts, and shed a new light on the world around me.

I do believe you have experienced some degree of enlightenment. I think the problem your having is becoming enlightened enough to realize your are becoming enlightened.

"en·light·ened

adjective
Definition:

1. rational: free of ignorance, prejudice, or superstition

2. well informed: having a sound and open-minded understanding of all the facts, or based on such an understanding
[/I]

 

[r0asted]

we're chemical beings. drug experiences aren't fake. it's like saying the love you feel for your SO or mother is fake. or the feeling of an orgasm is fake. or even the nutrition you receive from food is fake. it's all chemical in nature.

to each their own opinion though. maybe you just need to dose higher to see the light?

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

what many overlook....or foget, is that the entirity of enlightenment is contained within us all. at least this is what those crazy buddhists claim.

the act of 'becoming enlightened' as the transformation that siddhartha among other have experienced is NOT a gaining of something which they did not have. Enlightenment is a realization. Enlightenment is The realization of realizat-ability.

I think of it as the difference between our egos/personalities and our 'selves'.

all my ponderings and meanderings involving the depth of things has led me to realize that.....WE don't even progress through time. hear me out, i'm not denying that progression occurs. i've just realized that the part of ourselves which 'watches' the movie or our life (the observer) is timeless (god perhaps?). the observer of your childhood is the exact same as the observer of your final moment of conscious life. our brain function creates our personality..this is why genetics as well as developmental changes are plausible.

^this being said, enlightenment would be...Bringing our egos into the realization of entirity....the entirity which is part of us all along.

this is also what i feel is implied by the 'oneness' dwelled upon so dilligently by them buddhists. since part of our 'selves' never changes (maybe this part is pure energy....the exchange of which is pure consistency), it would seem possible that this is shared by all. especially considering that this portion of our selves evades characterizability.

 

[ikarma]

True, the universe is holographic in nature. The smallest part of yourself contains the complete information of your whole self and all of humanity AND all of the universe. This information can be accessed through various states of conscious.

Quote from Blackalicious - First in Flight
RISE! Like the sun up at the crack of the dawn
Like a wakin child in the morning stretchin and yawnin
RISE! Like an infant being held in the light
Like the smoke from an incense when it's ignited
RISE! If you're sleepin won't you open your eyes again
The greatest high be that natural high within
No need to force the progression just ride the wind
You'll know the answer to the where and why and when
If you keep workin for your search you will find the end
Though at the end you find it only begins again
See at the end you'll see it only begins again
And everything you learn you're only rememberin
Cause you're First in Flight

what many overlook....or foget, is that the entirity of enlightenment is contained within us all. at least this is what those crazy buddhists claim.

the act of 'becoming enlightened' as the transformation that siddhartha among other have experienced is NOT a gaining of something which they did not have. Enlightenment is a realization. Enlightenment is The realization of realizat-ability.

I think of it as the difference between our egos/personalities and our 'selves'.

all my ponderings and meanderings involving the depth of things has led me to realize that.....WE don't even progress through time. hear me out, i'm not denying that progression occurs. i've just realized that the part of ourselves which 'watches' the movie or our life (the observer) is timeless (god perhaps?). the observer of your childhood is the exact same as the observer of your final moment of conscious life. our brain function creates our personality..this is why genetics as well as developmental changes are plausible.

^this being said, enlightenment would be...Bringing our egos into the realization of entirity....the entirity which is part of us all along.

this is also what i feel is implied by the 'oneness' dwelled upon so dilligently by them buddhists. since part of our 'selves' never changes (maybe this part is pure energy....the exchange of which is pure consistency), it would seem possible that this is shared by all. especially considering that this portion of our selves evades characterizability.

 

[WeDieLaughing]

still tho, i hear people talking of achieving nirvana, or having spiritual epiphanies on mushrooms or acid, and it just sounds ridiculous. its a freakin drug. the effects are just another high; and while that does not diminish the value or significance of psychedelics, i still dont think its possible, or even reasonable to believe that one can ACTUALLY commune with god or a higher being or w/e through the use of a chemical of any sort.

dont get me wrong, im not dissing psychedelics (in fact, im growing to love them more than any other class of drugs), i just think that weak minded people seem to fool themselves into believing that they have achieved something amazing just by eating a drug.

I don't think that enlightenment of any sort can be found in simple consumption of psychedelics. I think that instead that any lessons are to be found in coming to grips with the meaning of the psychedelic experience. The bold psychedelic analysis of mundane situations, while occasionally useful and seemingly profound is in reality a superficial distraction, keeping one from the true philosophical task at hand. When you can put aside "Oh my god, I'm Jesus." for a second and instead began your philosophy at "This is just a drug.", you can do true introspection. There are quite a few lessons to be had in just observing the drug's effects. Your fears and desires surface, your basic thoughts on your life emerge, religion may come to mind, whatever. These are all intrinsically useful revelations.

Now, aside from this basic utility, which I would describe as enlightening, you have the more controversial spiritual aspects of the drugs. While the ideas of meeting and/or becoming god or any other entity are certainly erroneous, there is still value here. The problem is that many come looking for validation of their superstitions, not understanding that regurgitation of pop culture memes, be it god or elves or a mysterious lady, doesn't mean anything and is in fact a regression in any sense.

The bottom line is that its the creation of new ideas that provides spiritual, intellectual and philosophical value to the psychedelic experience, not the ad hoc validation of old ones.

 

[MrNice]

okay, because YOU dont believe anyone can reach any profound understandings with psychedelics you have decided that everybody who disagrees with you is 'weak minded'?

Have you considered that it isn't 'just' a case of taking psychedelics and achieving instant enlightenment? Have you considered that maybe the people who do take giant steps forward with psychedelics, may have a breakthrough experience only after years of their subconscious running through different thoughts, belief's, life experiences, and that psychedelics may help to access these deeper levels? revealing a realization to the conscious mind that has been under development for a number of years, or that brings certain fragments of thoughts together into one whole.

I don't think psychedelics are an easy path at all, i have studied martial arts for 10 years, i practice chi gung, & meditation daily, & i use psychedelics occasionally. And i can say that i have come to understand certain things about me & my life while meditating & while using psychedelics that have led to lasting beneficial changes.

But because 'you' have not, you are strong & everybody else is weak.

You should also consider that our reality is merely a perception of the world around us filtered through our senses and interpreted by our minds. Our thoughts & feelings are merely the result of 'chemicals' That practices such as meditation allow these chemical levels to be effected. Is the meaningfulness of our existence, thoughts, and emotions, nullified because it's just the result of 'chemicals'?

 

[Magnus]

This thread was a really interesting read, and props to wesmdow for asking these questions.

I am using psychadelics to try to get to these spirtual moments and gather valuable self-insight to bring back to "normal" life. And although the insights during a trip can be very strong, I find thath they tend do diminish as time goes by. Therapists rarely thinks it's a good idea to use drugs for theraphy, as it can be a tool for self-deception and flight. I think any user of psychadelic drugs should be very wary against feelings of having found "it". The mind, especially on drugs, can play tricks on you.

 

[phan]

But what about when the drugs have left your system, and, days later, the ideas that were brought up still make tons of sense? Is it still just a trick?

 

[athousandormore]

okay, because YOU dont believe anyone can reach any profound understandings with psychedelics you have decided that everybody who disagrees with you is 'weak minded'?

Have you considered that it isn't 'just' a case of taking psychedelics and achieving instant enlightenment? Have you considered that maybe the people who do take giant steps forward with psychedelics, may have a breakthrough experience only after years of their subconscious running through different thoughts, belief's, life experiences, and that psychedelics may help to access these deeper levels? 'chemicals'?

I just heard heard that research scientists have isolated what appears to be a gene that predisposes some people toward mystical experiences. It seems strange, but maybe it's a karmic thing? If you believe in reincarnation, maybe some people are incarnated into more spiritually developed entities, capable of moving up the ladder in this lifetime... while others have more work to do in that area.

Just a thought.