i dont see whats so profound about psychedelics...

[Curious Quetzal]

"still tho, i hear people talking of achieving nirvana, or having spiritual epiphanies on mushrooms or acid, and it just sounds ridiculous. its a freakin drug."


Perhaps this is a result of materialism in our culture, the idea of hand-held spirituality?

Psychedelics never gave me a religious experience, contrary to my expectations.
In fact, I would say I'm more of an agnostic since experiencing numerous psychedelics.

I try not to be too critical of the spiritual experiences that people have.
Its a really hazy region that could either be ''epiphany'' or ''delusion''.

However, if you are tripping you are more suggestible and possibly more superstitious. I almost feel like there are certain things psychedelics ''say'' to us that we can't possibly process, and yet that unknown may seem for lack of better terms...''spiritual''.

And if it is spiritual...was it simply due to the chemical and electrical changes in their brain? Or was it something else?

The set and setting are so important too...I imagine tripping for a St. Patrick's
Day Parade would give you a far different set of insights than a trip in a quiet stain-glassed cathedral.

 

[B9]

...however, i dont see whats so profound or spiritual about these drugs.

That would likely be because you didn't experience anything profound or spiritual whilst under the influence of them. I would guess this to be the case.
Expectation of such occurrences is frequently met by disappointment IME.

And if it is spiritual...was it simply due to the chemical and electrical changes in their brain? Or was it something else?

Yeah a 'perspective' shift

 

[killo]

.however, i dont see whats so profound or spiritual about these drugs. im of the opinion that true enlightenment cant possibly be attained through the use/abuse of chemicals... it just doesnt make sense that it could be that easy.

It's profound because taking a psychedelics like LSD DOES produce a state that CAN/in possibility/depending on the person, be enlightening. Yes, by taking a drug.

This is the year 2007, why should we not be able to explore existence and ourselves through something as simple as a drug.

There's the saying though.

PSychedelics are not for ordinary comfortmist.

Psychedelics are for the intellectuals and artists.

Intuition can be too much for some people.

Make sense? Maybe it's just not for you.

The set and setting are so important too...I imagine tripping for a St. Patrick's
Day Parade would give you a far different set of insights than a trip in a quiet stain-glassed cathedral.

It is important, but it's also up to your expectations, your mindset. YOu don't have to be anywhere in particular.

With LSD, just close your eyes with some nice tribal/ambient music on and you will NOT be in your room anymore.

 

[lurkerguy]

"Bad mushrooms"?

LOL.

What did a witch doctor put a hex on em?

Are you sure you ever ate any real mushrooms?

Mushrooms are profound in every sense of the word.

Unless you get some "bad ones" LOL.

 

[killo]

Ok just from reading this thread.

Almost everyone in here has NO IDEA what spirituality actually means.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.

RELIGION is something that is associated with spirituality.

As an atheist I would have to admit that 30+ years of psychedelic use hasn't made me any more sympathetic to religion, but I do appreciate a form of what I would term 'spirituality' that brings me closer to, and more compassionate about, other human beings.

Dumb ass! You can still be atheist towards religions but believe in some "kinds" of spiritualities. Stop associating religion with spirituality.

The only good religion is Buddhism anyway, it's the only logical/peaceful belief system. That can be aquired only through experience.

It's all a matter of what beliefs YOU develop.

How old is everyone in this thread? Have you ever thought for yourself?

 

[B9]

Almost everyone in here has NO IDEA what spirituality actually means.

Really ?

Maybe the way in which others express themselves does not communicate itself to you in that way. To assume they're ignorant of the knowledge you feel you possess, without first ascertaining what it is they really believe/think etc is a maybe a little presumptious.


Sincerely ., clown prince of presumptiousness.:D

 

[qwe]

ok, ive waited a while to make this thread.

ive tried most of the common psychedelics: lsd, shrooms, dxm (i KNOW.. not technically a psych...), mdma, mda, and experienced amphetamine psychosis twice.

now, except for the 3 times i ate bad mushrooms and had an awful time, ive loved every trip.

...however, i dont see whats so profound or spiritual about these drugs. im of the opinion that true enlightenment cant possibly be attained through the use/abuse of chemicals... it just doesnt make sense that it could be that easy.

every trip ive had has been wonderful, opened my mind to new thoughts, and shed a new light on the world around me.

still tho, i hear people talking of achieving nirvana, or having spiritual epiphanies on mushrooms or acid, and it just sounds ridiculous. its a freakin drug. the effects are just another high; and while that does not diminish the value or significance of psychedelics, i still dont think its possible, or even reasonable to believe that one can ACTUALLY commune with god or a higher being or w/e through the use of a chemical of any sort.

dont get me wrong, im not dissing psychedelics (in fact, im growing to love them more than any other class of drugs), i just think that weak minded people seem to fool themselves into believing that they have achieved something amazing just by eating a drug.

i just think its a great high.

what are yalls thoughts on this?

like any mental state, spiritual experiences have neural correlates. and there's every reason to think that perturbing the brain in just the right way can produce the specific mental state we call spiritual experiences

it seems we have found an agent which does catalyze this specific mental state

numerous studies have reported that the state described by test subjects on psychedelics are exactly identical to mystical/spiritual states described by religious people who have devoted their life to attaining such experiences

 

[Amberthefrog]

Almost everyone in here has NO IDEA what spirituality actually means.

The only good religion is Buddhism anyway, it's the only logical/peaceful belief system. That can be aquired only through experience.

With all due respect i don't get the impression that you are especially enlightened regarding religion/spirituality if you are willing to stereotype the majority of the worlds beliefs in a single sentence :D

I don't see how you can say whether a religion is 'good' or not.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

if we're considering a drug something which alters one's thoughts or processes...then really anything can be considered a drug. since afterall vitamins and even water greatly alter our states of mind. it seems easier to look at these vitamins as catalysts for a healthy system, right?

well, drugs function in the same manner as vitamins: chemicals which slide into a slot in our neurons.

how many monks have attained enlightenment without any water or vitamins?

also, considering how resistance works....if one was to take a specific amount of psilocybin everyday, it will end up fairly undetectable mentally. and since psychedelics can help people to learn and function in a powerful manner, then maybe psychedelics are vitamins that we've been deprived of.

and also....in 1965 DMT was found in human blood, and in 1972 Julius Axelrod found DMT in brain tissue. so regardless of what catalyst agents we consume, we are made of psychedelics.

 

[psood0nym]

Personality and Psychedelic Response

Certain personality types tend to get more out of psychedelics than others. In their 1972 study (described on pgs 125-126 in "Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered"), Barr and Langs administered 100 micrograms of LSD to 30 male participants who were given personality tests beforehand and questionnaires before, during, and after the LSD sessions. The questionnaires and personality tests revealed significant correlations between certain symptom clusters and 6 different personality types. In summation, men who tended towards being emotionally open, narcissistic, intellectual, introspective, colorful in their use of words, and willing to accept their impulses were most likely to strongly experience what sound to me to be the best symptom clusters (such as elation and perceptions of new meanings), and demonstrated the most control over the trip. Obsessional, emotionally defensive, verbally aggressive men who tended to anticipate exploitation and externalize blame felt the worst symptom clusters most strongly (negative physical symptoms and anxiety). Practical men who tested low in sensuality and fantasy experienced a low degree of symptoms from all clusters.

I just remembered reading about this so I thought I'd post. Take from it what you will.

 

[Pimp Lazy]

enlightenment is a fairly broad and indescript term.

I think in the most basic sense any change in perspective gives you a new positive way of looking at things/enlightenment. When that change is a gloriously ecstatic brain orgasm it could reach a level that is that has some grounding in profundity. Enlightenment is a place. I think it's like seeing a new way. You might know which path to travel but you still must walk it.

I think the what you're trying to prove in your last post in on the order of that stupid quote, "Whether you think you can or you can't you're right." If anything psychedelics allow for a mentality in which you can't be normal. You can't be smooth. You have to function on your base level and if your base level is cynical, misanthropic assholeness then it could be enlightening to see yourself in such a way. However the inherent chemical nature of the drugs push you towards openess and a lack of fear. Tiny doses of hallucinogens have some opposite effects in my experience.

Oh and as for DMT in the brain. We are not made of psychedelics. MDMA catalyzes a mostly natural reaction to a high degree, but that is not a natural state and will never occur without the drug in place. Each has their own balance and when that balance is disturbed you see the pleasant violence of the extremes.

PAX,
PL

 

[wesmdow]

thank you for all the responses!

i am very eager to try DMT now.

i also think a hefty salvia trip is in order.

and thanks to those who did not missinterpret my OP, i am just trying to learn; throw new ideas out there.

 

[Curious Quetzal]

wesmdow...I recommend Ayahuasca.

 

[swilow]

In summation, men who tended towards being emotionally open, narcissistic, intellectual, introspective, colorful in their use of words, and willing to accept their impulses were most likely to strongly experience what sound to me to be the best symptom clusters (such as elation and perceptions of new meanings), and demonstrated the most control over the trip

Damnit, I've been desribed like that too many times, particulalry the imupulsive and self centred bits.... interesting.

 

[swilow]

thank you for all the responses!

i am very eager to try DMT now.

i also think a hefty salvia trip is in order.

and thanks to those who did not missinterpret my OP, i am just trying to learn; throw new ideas out there.

Hey man, seriously great thread :D . You must admit that what you said was bound to be misinterpreted, particualrly when your "taking on" the oh-so-wordy PD squad of linguistic demolition, but good work in bringing up a- or even the most pertinent discussion psychedelic users can have.

I would wholeheartedly agree that a DMT trip would be useful for you, a few breakthrough doses should wash away some skeptiisism- spiritual awareness isn't a definite, but beautiful, otherworlds peaks of emotion are. Now salvia- that should give you a philosophical bone to chew; I want to know WHY the fuck there appears to be either living entites in the plant????

Peace

 

[jonO_O]

In summation, men who tended towards being emotionally open, narcissistic, intellectual, introspective, colorful in their use of words, and willing to accept their impulses were most likely to strongly experience what sound to me to be the best symptom clusters (such as elation and perceptions of new meanings), and demonstrated the most control over the trip

Damn, I was pleasantly suprised to be so succinctly summed up by a research report but I... wait a minute ....narcissistic?
I just wanna play music, so a big ego is necessary....*ahem*

Thanks a lot for the report anyway psood

I think the most important part of getting value out of psychedelic experience is setting no limits on what will happen, who you are or what you can do. You're tripping, the limits no longer exist! Let your senses, and intuition guide you. You don't have to do anything, just look around you, feel the sun on your skin, or the aetherial moon light falling softly on your face.

By setting up your experience in this way, you can guide yourself up till the point where you don't need yourself anymore. Psychedelics have shown me the power I have within myself, the reins of a horse that once I stop holding me so tight, will take me wherever I want.

 

[psood0nym]

Damnit, I've been desribed like that too many times, particulalry the imupulsive and self centred bits.... interesting.

Don't be too concerned, I'm pretty sure, at least in psychoanalytic terms, narcissism is pretty broadly defined. These descriptions could just mean "possessing self love and spontaneity". I don't think self-absorption is such a bad thing either. Look at Socrates, the man drank the hemlock and had the guards take away his wife and kids because their crying was annoying and he wanted to talk philosophy with his friends! And he is the epitome of integrity and wisdom! It's about the reasons you're self-absorbed and self-loving. We conflate the good and the bad forms and some of us apply them inadvisably.

Despite its shortcomings, I included the study because the authors exercised a very fair and judicious hand in writing the book it's referenced in, and so I'm sure its findings are part of a theme, a theme we all probably suspect. That is, that when our minds are manifested to us through psychedelics, certain people's personality traits better equip them for dealing with that revelation in healthy and benificial ways. It doesn't take much to imagine how self love, acceptance, and a familiarity with the spontaneous might figure into that.

 

[burn out]

I don't think you've really experienced egoloss if you don't think it to be profound.

i agree

 

[swilow]

i agree

i agree

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

...however, i dont see whats so profound or spiritual about these drugs. im of the opinion that true enlightenment cant possibly be attained through the use/abuse of chemicals... it just doesnt make sense that it could be that easy.

i just think its a great high.

what are yalls thoughts on this?

Thank you for asking.

I think your thoughts (and I mean you Wes, and none of this is meant to be insulting in any way) and experiences are the product of a straight-mind. Someone who is attached to their intellect at the expense of other faculties of the mind (e.g intuition). Someone who has fooled themselves that their intellect is their (whole) mind. You probably have a tendency to pay attention to outward forms rather than inner contents and have a materialistic view of life. The only life-giving force you have recognized is blood cells, wondering in amazement at this physical thing you can recognize, label, see.

You recognize the pretty changing colours of psychedelia (outward forms) but fail to grasp the more profound inner dimension. You are missing out. LSD is really not about the colours. There is so much more.

I'm not knocking you. Hell, I actually agree about the weak-minded bit you mention. You are right, there definitely are some weak individuals who think they see God on their first acid experience (because they think that it what is expected). You cannot trust what everyone says about their experience of a very altered consciousness. To that end, your admission of no experience of profound psychedelic states can at least be held up to be honest and truthful as compared to some of the BS some come out with.

However, ultimately it is about using your mind in a different way. LSD et al do not automatically make anyone have deep experiences, peoples minds work in different ways, even on the same drugs. But if you want a tip.....try not to get so attached to the visual distortions and changing external realities on psychedelics. Tell your mind to STFU. And just let it flow.

Alternatively up the dose on any of the drugs mentioned in this thread, particularly DMT, Salvia or K-hole Ketamine and then try coming back and telling us that psychedelics aren't profound.