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i dont see whats so profound about psychedelics...

wesmdow

wesmdow

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Dec 13, 2004
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ok, ive waited a while to make this thread.

ive tried most of the common psychedelics: lsd, shrooms, dxm (i KNOW.. not technically a psych...), mdma, mda, and experienced amphetamine psychosis twice.

now, except for the 3 times i ate bad mushrooms and had an awful time, ive loved every trip.

...however, i dont see whats so profound or spiritual about these drugs. im of the opinion that true enlightenment cant possibly be attained through the use/abuse of chemicals... it just doesnt make sense that it could be that easy.

every trip ive had has been wonderful, opened my mind to new thoughts, and shed a new light on the world around me.

still tho, i hear people talking of achieving nirvana, or having spiritual epiphanies on mushrooms or acid, and it just sounds ridiculous. its a freakin drug. the effects are just another high; and while that does not diminish the value or significance of psychedelics, i still dont think its possible, or even reasonable to believe that one can ACTUALLY commune with god or a higher being or w/e through the use of a chemical of any sort.

dont get me wrong, im not dissing psychedelics (in fact, im growing to love them more than any other class of drugs), i just think that weak minded people seem to fool themselves into believing that they have achieved something amazing just by eating a drug.

i just think its a great high.

what are yalls thoughts on this?
 
I think it is rather big-headed of you to assume that because you didn't experience any 'mystical' experiences with psychedelics...that others who claim to have had such experiences must be "weak minded." A big newsflash for you....your experiences do not represent what others feel? I know it is hard for you to imagine that a whole world exists outside of your personal experiences, but it does.

Moreover, it doesn't matter what you believe because thousands of texts regarding modern psychotherapy which actually do document spiritual experiences (read of the good friday experiments). There is no way to 'prove' the existence of God, but to say that people are "fooled" into believing they had spiritual experiences is to ignore the experiences of countless thousands of people over thousands of years.

How dare you tell so many people they are weak minded and have been fooled simply because you didn't get it.

The ultimate sign of a closed mind.
 
you missinterpreted what i meant...

im saying that i dont believe its possible for a chemical to just GIVE you enlightenment.

how could it be that easy?

and yes, people have been using psychs for thousands of years. that doesnt really prove anything.

enlightenment, nirvana, and such ARE real. it seems almost like cheating to think you could just eat a drug and BAM, be enlightened. that seems insulting to those whove devoted their lives to 'the path' and really acheiving inner peace, at least to me.

your response rings of a closed mind as well.
 
enlightenment is a fairly broad and indescript term.

since psychedelics break your familiarity, both in terms of perception and though schemes, it's not uncommon for someone to think (or have a revelation) of a fairly philosophical thought without expecting it.

aside from factual learning such as philosophy, many people experience a 'new way of looking at the world', due to their familiarity break. i would see this latter effect being closer to 'enlightenment' because one feels 'wiser' and more observant.

in neurological terms......drugs force your neuron networks to grow differently (hence addictions and habituation). psychedelic drugs cause the neuron network to grow rapidly and to branch with much diversity. while this is not enlightenment necissarily, an experienced tripper (or meditator) is capable of guiding their own neuron growth. the guiding of neurons is something we all do, that is how we learn afterall. but, due to the increased thought speed and expanded time perception whilst tripping this can easily be done.

^if you're interesting in learning how to do this neurological technique read up on metaprogramming.
 
and to add to what morningglory said, in terms of modern experimentation.

God Head experiment studied the brain activity of a person amidst prayer (i believe christian, not sure though), a monk amidst meditation, and a tripper amidst psychedelia (i think mushrooms, its been a while since i've read this).........the results showed the exact same brain activity, proving that psychedelics produce the exact same effect on the brain as any other spiritual experience.

but then again...its all about intent.
 
i had no problem controlling my trips, in fact, that was the best part: i could see or hear whatever i wanted to.

i had loads of fun drawing pictures in the air, and changing the colors of the sky and walls.

i did not find my thought process to be altered all that much. i was still 'me'.

i have no idea how to meditate (my brain wont STFU), so ill look into metoprogramming, thanks. :)

maybe im just not a spiritual person; or not in the conventional sense..... which is why i did not experience anything profound?

i do see how one could use the drugs as a tool to better understand oneself, however in and of themselves, it still does not make sense to me how a drug could produce any effects of an actual spiritual nature. it seems like an insult to spirituality, almost...
 
Maybe I did misread you. I don't believe these chemicals 'give' one enlightenment either or 'produce' a spiritual experience. But they can be a catylist to such states, just as any experience of similar significance can also be. Psychedelics can break down the barriers that keep people from normally accessing these 'divine' states of mind. But it is not the drugs producing these experiences, the experience comes from within. What is most important is what it means to the person who has experienced it, and how it further influences their lives.

I thought you were implying that people who think psychedelics can lead to profound changes in spirituality and perception of themselves and their place in the world or universe were weak minded and fooling themselves.
 
It's not really so much that psychedelics cause enlightenment, but more that they have the potential to cause an enlightening experience, depending on how you allow them to expand your mind. Some people have many trips and don't have a spiritually enlightening one for a long time, or never. I'm not sure why this is, as personally, my very first trip remains the most enlightening experience of my life. It and the years afterwards of sober reflection have done a tremendous amount of work in shaping my current spiritual beliefs.

If you have such an experience, a direct awakening from the dream that is this physical life back into the place we have always been, it is not possible to discount it as having fooled yourself. At least, it wasn't for me.

But also, please note that this enlightenment is temporary, and work must be done in your everyday life to benefit from it long-term. A psychedelic trip is like a brief flashlight into the darkness, which soon goes back out. But maybe you caught a glimpse of what is out there, which can help you to return on your own, or at least live your life with a new understanding of your place in the universe. Because I agree with you that it might be considered an insult to spirituality to assume that one could take a drug and immediately and effortlessly achieve "enlightenment".
 
no not at all, i do think that people who feel as though theyve achieved some sort of enlightenment after an acid trip or two are fooling themselves.

but yes, it does make sense that the drugs could be used as a catalyst for some people.

they dont seem to affect me this way; possibly because i wont let them?
 
the most spiritual experience ive had was getting a blood transfusion; the realization that the same life-force pumps through us all.

no drug experience has come close to touching that epiphany.

i suppose ill keep trying, i would like something profound to happen... it just doesnt seem to want to. i cant 'let go.'

i think my next trip will involve 14 grams of the same mushrooms, maybe that will FORCE me into someplace my ego will not allow?
 
I can tell that you probably do have a hard time letting go, and I can also tell you that letting go of the ego is the key.

14 grams may force that experience. It may also horrify you. So just be careful. IMO mushrooms can be the most horrific psychedelic, but also the most beautiful and spiritual.
 
wesmdow said:
the most spiritual experience ive had was getting a blood transfusion; the realization that the same life-force pumps through us all.

?
Click to expand...

What if I told you that your transfusion experience was a crock of shit, that you are fooling yourself and are just weak minded to believe that...in short...what if I tell you that you didn't even experience anything like that, and are crazy to think so?

That is exactly what you are doing by dismissing my spiritual psychedelic experiences and suggesting I am weak minded because of what I experienced. You have no clue as to the grace of my 5-MeO-DMT experiences, or the universal love I've felt on MDA and MDMA. How can you dismiss my experiences and tell me I am fooling myself for having had them?
 
morninggloryseed said:
What if I told you that your transfusion experience was a crock of shit, that you are fooling yourself and are just weak minded to believe that...in short...what if I tell you that you didn't even experience anything like that, and are crazy to think so?

That is exactly what you are doing by dismissing my spiritual psychedelic experiences and suggesting I am weak minded because of what I experienced. You have no clue as to the grace of my 5-MeO-DMT experiences, or the universal love I've felt on MDA and MDMA. How can you dismiss my experiences and tell me I am fooling myself for having had them?
Click to expand...
you could tell me that, and we could argue till blue in the face.

what i found profound was the fact that someone elses life force managed to keep me alive. it was the same exact force.

and yes, i know that not all blood is interchangable, however that is due to its biochemical properties... bloodtypes and whatnot. were it not for chemical incompatabilities, we could all share blood. the part i find profound is that the non-sentient life of another person was transferred to me, yet i still remain 'me.'

the fact that another persons life-force can be transferred to me is mind-blowing. i did not create those blood cells, yet they are alive, and functioning in me. they are a part of me, and i cant get over that 'link.' if you think thats a crock of shit, you are truly the one being closed-minded here.

as far as your experience on 5-meo, could it not be possible that it was YOU and not the drug that caused your revelation? as someone already stated, and it makes sense, drugs can be a catalyst... however if you think that it was purely the drug that gave you a mystical experience, yes. i do think you are fooling yourself, in addition to not giving yourself enough credit.

and there is no need to get so defensive, im tempted to rip on you but thats just petty.

try and act more civilized. 8)
 
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Dude if you take 5 grams of good shrooms with like 2 of ur best friends in the world out in a strange place at night by a campfire ud learn so much, it would be so elite
 
I don't think anyone is saying that it's only the drug and not at all yourself which causes a spiritual experience. Of course it is from within yourself. As far as I know none of us here are trying to claim that psychedelics are anything more than catalysts. Just like any other tool, they can be used to aid a person in accomplishing something, in this case, a spiritual experience.

wesmdow said:
i cant get over that 'link.' if you think thats a crock of shit, you are truly the one being closed-minded here.
Click to expand...

MGS was just trying to turn the tables on you and present you with the same statement you made about his experience. I'm sure he doesn't really think that your experience was bullshit. As you know, having someone tell you that your experiences are bullshit is rather insulting.

And indeed, let's keep it civilized.
 
fyodor10 said:
Dude if you take 5 grams of good shrooms with like 2 of ur best friends in the world out in a strange place at night by a campfire ud learn so much, it would be so elite
Click to expand...
did you read my OP?

i took 7 grams with my best friend. lol.

that amount of mushrooms make any place strange! especially the city at night...

i still found it to be a wonderful, beautiful high... much better than any amphetamine, or even heroin.

...it was still just a high tho.

this leads me to the question: can other classes of drugs be used as a catalyst for spiritual experiences?

i would say so; ive learned a LOT about myself from cocaine and amphetamines, both of which also make me think a great deal.
 
Perhaps you will be better off focusing on the fact that you have realised there is no such thing as enlightenment and diverting your energies elsewhere.
 
i think there are a lot of different levels of understanding that can be, well, understood.

i picture enlightenment being total peace of mind and open-mindedness.
 
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