Hydrocodone Weirdness

[OxyDillyKing]

Placebo is far from proven. to me the existence of china isnt really proven. ive never been there, and if i had, i could never really be sure ity was that large mass on the map ive always called china. Placebo has a direct bearing on philosophical questions of whether reality is fluid or static. Some philosophies believe that mental states have NO EFFECT on physical states, such as epiphenomenalism. if this is true, that throws the whole percieved placebo effect out the window, because mental states would be unable to have any relationship with things that are happening objectively, onl objective circumstances would effect mind in a sort one way street. the very actions that we attritube to free will would simple be parts of determined causality that we identify with certain mental states. if this 100% plausible philosophy is true there can be no placebo effect.

Also if placebo is so powerful as to produce Dilaudid like effects from saline, why cant it negate Dilaudid like effects down to a saline injection? you said yourself that it can only produce imagined effects when you said you would know the hydromorph right away, and that it can not negate the effects of actual drugs, we both agree that anyone would recognize the hydromorph no matter what. my case and point. the placebo effect can turn nothing into a hydrocodone experience, but it can not turn a hydrocodone experience into nothing, as you were saying was the case with the OP.

thats why i favor a nutritional/ physiological explanation

but this has been a rousing debate, i like it

 

[Cane2theLeft]

I think morph and I were claiming that mental states can somewhat enhance or diminish hydrocodone effects, NOT turn hydrocodone into "nothing".

As far as the validity of the placebo effect... how is the results of countless medical studies less proof than what you've offered for epiphenomenalism? Oh "some philsophies" believe it so it MUST have more validity than DECADES upon DECADES of medical research!

Every time morph or I make a point you seem to intentionally distort it and argue against an exaggerated version of what we're saying to negate its validity... how about addressing what we are saying instead?

How about you respond to this... do somatic manifestations of anxiety (hypertension, hyperhydrosis, etc.) not exist? Do hysterical pregnancies not exist? Are somatoform disorders rubbish? Are there no hypochondriacs anywhere ever?

All of these examples indicate clear somatization (mental states influencing physical ones) and are thoroughly documented through medical literature. If you are going to claim none of these exist... how about some substantiation?

If any of this didn't make sense, I apologize. I'm rather drunk at the moment.

 

[morphonorconic]

^"Enhance or diminish the effects of Hydrocodone"- Exactly! Not "turn Hydrocodone into nothing," or "turn nothing into Hydrocodone." No one ever said that.

One point I wish to correct myself on: I'm not sure it is appropriate to say that placebo is "proven," but rather that it is "accepted" by (just about) all as a valid and very real phenomenon.

OxyDillyKing- It would seem that you are choosing to exaggerate and distort most of what Cane and I are saying, which is kind of frustrating, but I suppose that's your prerogative. Let me say once more that placebo is not some all powerful, spiritual-mind over matter state of being. The effects of placebo will not mimic a drug high to the degree that a person will think they've taken a large dose of a drug. I never claimed that it could or would. Remember, this is a concept. The effects of placebo will not negate the effects of a large dose of a drug either. Again, I never claimed that it could. What it can [potentially] do is subjectively enhance or diminish the perceived effects of a drug felt by the user. Or, it can trick a person into believing they are feeling the effects of a drug, when in reality they are experiencing effects brought on by their own endogenous electrochemical neurotransmitters. See what I'm saying?

Cane really makes some great points, regarding Hypochondriasis and the like. The mind is a powerful thing. I understand where you're coming from, from a nutritional and physiological standpoint, but physiology and psychology are so interconnected, it is illogical and counterintuitive to embrace one and ignore the other.

 

[motiv311]

I think its tolerance. . . you must come "down" before you can "come up"

so basically find a schedule that works with your body... so you have more time to let your brain re-set before you re-dose...

I dunno if that makes sense; but I've had similar experiences with hydrocodone. And I just think its a weird part of tolerance.