HPPD Salvia Warning

[Dr Farnsworth]

Hey all,

For those that dont know HPPD is Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder and is when you take any psy and have persiting visuals or perception changes.

For instance i have slightly warping/breathing or tracers, now i happen to love it and it increases slightly when i smoke.

However,

A good friend of mine smoked salvia once, just once.
She has now had HPPD for 6 months. She describes it as a living nightmare saying she is scared every single day and that life is agony now. At one point she was considering suicide i did lots of research on HPPD at that point and talked to her. She says its fading/managble now.

1 month ago the EXACT same thing happened to my other friend, now he drinks to subdue the HPPD and has spoken about suicide because "nothing in this life is real". Im hoping his fades just like my other friends and that alcohol doesnt become his medication.

I have tripped on salvia a good number of times and so have many of my friends but i just wanted to warn everybody. When you do any psy you have a decent chance to develop HPPD and there is a slight chance it can be negative.

 

[allium]

I think that your friends confuse HPPD with dissociative disorder. "Nothing in this life is real" makes me think it is derealization.
HPPD and dissociation often go hand by hand in psychedelic users.

Unlike HPPD, dissociation is more treatable, and the best advice for your friends is to visit a doctor.

 

[Dr Farnsworth]

thanks ill look into DD a bit more, i say HPPD because they both had visuals still. Im guessing that often HPPD and DD go hand and hand.

I know he did see a doctor and they put him on some medication but he stopped after a week or two because they werent working and made him sick.

 

[allium]

He shouldn't have stopped taking medication!

Of course, side effects are always possible, and if they make his condition worse, he should see doctor another time for replacing medication!

Dissociative disorders seem to be more treatable than HPPD.

 

[HeavilySedated]

thanks ill look into DD a bit more, i say HPPD because they both had visuals still. Im guessing that often HPPD and DD go hand and hand.

I know he did see a doctor and they put him on some medication but he stopped after a week or two because they werent working and made him sick.

Any type of psychiatric medication usually takes more than two weeks to start having an effect, especially if it's an SSRI (which according to your description is probably what he got).

Why don't people realize this? Salvia is hot water! I'd say about 99.9% of the population shouldn't even go near it, not even most trippers. The effects will prove nothing more than hell for most people.

Everyday we get threads now about how people got fucked up after using salvia (guilty. that was also my first posting here ).

This goes out to all the kids reading this. Start participating in school and make something of yourselves instead of looking for cheap pathetic legal highs.

There's a time and place for everything and it's called collage.

By the way, this is not directed at you or your friends, just a general word of sincerity.

 

[gayface]

I'm sorry to hear about your friends. To me, your friends sound like they have PTSD more than anything else. For a novice, salvia is simply far too intense, and could cause serious trauma if they actually "break through". I think you should probably try to get your friends to seek some form of therapy, because I don't think they will ever fully cure themselves by themselves. They'll probably learn to cope with it, but the coping mechanisms might be pretty restrictive themselves. I'd recommend scaling back any current recreational drug use also.

It's a real shame. I actually really enjoy salvia - it's possibly my DoC - but because of the ridiculously inconsistent legal system, a lot of people (quite reasonably) underestimate it. The legal system needs to be sorted out so it's at least self-consistent, ala Nutt. I believe the salvia "break through" fixation that so many beginners have is counterproductive also. If a beginner starts small and works up, I think they will have far less risk. But I must echo HeavilySedated's advice to the beginner: steer clear.

 

[MrGrunge]

If someone has zero psychedelic experience, they should stay away from Salvia. It's way too intense a trip to give to someone who is not prepared for it. I study psychology and I would agree with gayface that it's probably some sort of PTSD. HPPD is kind of a hard thing to diagnose, and assuming that your friends were psychedelic novices, it seems highly unlikely the disorder appear after a single experience with the drug.

Psychedelics can alter your perception of the world around you, and those new thoughts/feelings can sometimes be disturbing. They need to stay active, not get mired down in apathy or depression. Pretty soon they'll start to get a grip on themselves and realize the negative thoughts were drug-induced delusions. This same thing happened to a friend of mine (feeling "nothing is real" and contemplating suicide) and, after talking with him for awhile, finally got over it after a month or two. I think spending time with them, just doing stuff, helps a lot.

 

[Nateup]

I think anyone who tries salvia to get a "cheap pathetic high" will likely have problems and deserves to. These are the people who are ruining all of this for those of us who benefit greatly from responsible, therapeutic/spiritual use of psychedelics. If these people have a "bad trip" and supsequent "hppd" (which I believe only exists in those who have no business touching psys in the first place) that keeps them from further disrespecting and abusing these serious tools... then so be it!

I used to actually experience some negative (well I was a bit ambivalent about it) HPPD effects... when I was a kid, had no business touching these powerful tools, and I was under the stigma-induced illusion that many of these psychedelics were "frying my brain" to some extent. Now that I am a responsible 29 year old scientist (in the sense that everyone should be - not a professional) and I realize that all the nonsense that ignorant kids spread (lsd and other psychedelic myths) is not in the least evident to be true... and I have no hppd symptoms.

No memory problems of any kind, no perception problems of any kind, no concentration problems of any kind... no problems of any kind after 15 years of psychedelic use. When I was less aware, I believed these problems existed for me - so they did. Now that research and experience has taught me otherwise - they don't. In fact, I find through objective observation while interacting with other adults of various ages and backgrounds... I am actually quite sharp comparatively. I believe with every bit of my being that these experiences have given me a unique perspective that most others have missed out on - as counter-intuitive as this may sound - these experiences with powerful psychedelic chemicals have quite literally contributed to me becoming "more intelligent" as society might say. I prefer "more aware".
Now, I have NOT just been popping chemicals and partying - I go to GREAT lengths to make sure I am always making "progress" on a variety of levels. It is far more worth it than many would ever imagine. The way the majority of people use psychedelics is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

From my experience, "HPPD" is a phenomenon reserved for those who require or deserve it.

 

[an rud is annamh]

allium, HPPD and Depersonalisation/Derealisation (a dissociative disorder) are very often comorbid and existential crises are common in HPPDers. I doubt there is a confusion here as DP/DR does not have the same well enumerated visual symptoms (and if they are present they are usually explainable by migraine aura/epilepsy which would exclude HPPD diagnosis). HPPD is not hard for a competent doctor to diagnose at all and does not require any neurologists.

Also, OP, Dr Abraham here said "I've seen cases of folks with HPPD from other stimulants, including psilocybin, mescaline, and even (rarely) patients on weed alone, or Ritalin." and he is the discoverer of the condition and is well cited on it, so I wouldn't be shocked to hear of Salvia causing HPPD.

However if your friend is anything like me, the DP/DR clears up first, and then that makes life bearable and you can begin to "unlearn" some HPPD symptoms while others become manageable, especially with therapy and/or treatment from a HPPD-aware doctor (Dr. Abraham can tell you if there is one in your area as he corresponds with many). Sometimes they go away altogether, but they have discovered no secret formula for this. It's better to learn to be happy.

I've described the feeling elsewhere here but HPPD with DP/DR is absolutely horrible and it seems like there is no end in sight, but the worst is over in months. It's panic disorder, depression and a hundred things all rolled into one. People on HPPDonline reported feeling a pressure on their head all the time and sometimes a difficulty doing things like writing, and very occasionally hearing voices, which is stuff not mentioned in the DSM.

From my experience, "HPPD" is a phenomenon reserved for those who require or deserve it.

I don't think you have justified this speculation. The research done by Mt. Sinai & NODID shows it's far more likely to have genetic and other more tangible risk factors. There's a huge variety of people who get HPPD - normal people who use LSD once, hardened psychonauts, casual and spiritual users, and the big surveys show it has no correlation to bad trips or unpreparedness. It seems to be a hard neurological change in the brain which is not understood but can be shown using qEEG.

You say that people who get HPPD have no business touching psychedelics. I disagree with this judgement, because if someone is unlucky enough to be susceptible to it, they will have no way of knowing that before you take a psychedelic. Whether the change happens is not a matter of weak spirit or the wrong attitude.

Otherwise we have the same story and I agree with you on one important thing. Your HPPD symptoms seemed to go away in the same time frame as mine did - and I can attribute that to having the right respect for them and understanding for them, and I think having the same respect for psychedelics will at worst prepare them for the possibility and at best make the most of it should it happen.

 

[an rud is annamh]

agh, sorry for coming across like a smartass. I got a bit obsessed with this stuff and constantly researched it when I was in college, when really the best thing is to see a doctor if it's bad, then forget about it, and try to get on with whatever life you had before.

good luck to your friends OP. Remember they're the same people as they were before even if you might have trouble making sense of their thoughts sometimes. When this was me, I nothing helped me more than to have friends I could depend on.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Why don't people realize this? Salvia is hot water! I'd say about 99.9% of the population shouldn't even go near it, not even most trippers. The effects will prove nothing more than hell for most people.

I would disagree with this. Some people may not like it, I thought it was a great experience every time I had the opportunity to use it.

 

[HeavilySedated]

I would disagree with this. Some people may not like it, I thought it was a great experience every time I had the opportunity to use it.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy it. It's certainly not a recreational drug per se, but you can get some worthwhile stuff out of it. The thing is, most people touch it once and never come back to it again. From my personal experience with it, I can tell you that it was quite overwhelming, but very mind opening and powerful. For a time thereafter I was really eating up a lot of mindfuck about how life has no meaning etc etc, but in retrospect I never regret doing it. Doubt I'll ever mess with it again though.

It's just one of those things that after the first use seem pointless. Sure, I've heard about people claiming that with higher doses you can achieve total ego elimination, spirit emancipation, becoming one with god, flying around the universe, bla bla bla, but for myself and most other people that is just way too much.

Doing salvia is opening the darkest pandora box of the subconscious mind. I believe everyone should do it once before they expire out of this world, but why would people keep on doing it still evades me.

 

[Dr Farnsworth]

I think salvia is like anything else you should weigh the risks and proceed with that knowledge. Just like people die every day in car wrecks but i find the positives out weigh the potential negatives of using a car. (apply this same logic to any drug).

And thanks ill talk to my friend about going back to see the doctor and see if he can stay on the medication for longer to see if it will start working.

Will he probably have to take medication for the rest of his life or will the effects subside?

 

[MrGrunge]

I think salvia is like anything else you should weigh the risks and proceed with that knowledge. Just like people die every day in car wrecks but i find the positives out weigh the potential negatives of using a car. (apply this same logic to any drug).

And thanks ill talk to my friend about going back to see the doctor and see if he can stay on the medication for longer to see if it will start working.

Will he probably have to take medication for the rest of his life or will the effects subside?

Well, everyone is different. You said your first friend showed signs of progress, which means that he will probably most likely overcome whatever is ailing her. As for your other friend, instead of medication, which would almost certainly NOT help him, I would recommend some kind of cognitive/emotional therapy with a clinical psychologist/psychiatrist...or like I said earlier, a lot of support from friends would also help out. Try to get him away from the alcohol.

 

[Nateup]

I don't think you have justified this speculation. The research done by Mt. Sinai & NODID shows it's far more likely to have genetic and other more tangible risk factors. There's a huge variety of people who get HPPD - normal people who use LSD once, hardened psychonauts, casual and spiritual users, and the big surveys show it has no correlation to bad trips or unpreparedness. It seems to be a hard neurological change in the brain which is not understood but can be shown using qEEG.

You say that people who get HPPD have no business touching psychedelics. I disagree with this judgement, because if someone is unlucky enough to be susceptible to it, they will have no way of knowing that before you take a psychedelic. Whether the change happens is not a matter of weak spirit or the wrong attitude.

Otherwise we have the same story and I agree with you on one important thing. Your HPPD symptoms seemed to go away in the same time frame as mine did - and I can attribute that to having the right respect for them and understanding for them, and I think having the same respect for psychedelics will at worst prepare them for the possibility and at best make the most of it should it happen.

Yes, you are correct... I was over-simplifying. Its just from my experience - the people I have known and read about showing HPPD symptoms are often people who have shown very little respect for the seriousness of these tools. I should have just stated it as "from my experience it appears that way".

BUT, then you sort of went on to describe pretty much the exact same phenomenon for yourself. Maybe I am misunderstanding? You are correct - I have not read all of the information about HPPD that you have. I read up on it a bit back when I had "problems" with it, but that was probably 10 years ago or more. I suppose I should read up on that study.

Thanks for checking me! I need it sometimes. Social stigma really gets to me every now and then.

 

[Iciclem]

So I'm Not Alone?!

Hey there, guys, I'm 22, and have felt pressed to pursue knowledge, it seems, all my life.

When weed was introduced to me, I found my niche in this universe. After trying salvia 40x recently, not knowing what to expect, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I felt like I had crossed into a universe I was familiar with, but had forgotten for some strange reason. After panic and discord in reality took me around my room begging my boyfriend to help me and bring me back, and even losing control of my arms, where they had begun waving like a chicken wing. So many things had happened and I couldn't explain or understand them, they were almost frightening to me, but I felt compelled to understand what it all meant. After meditation and reflection, the next day, I tried again, this time by myself. It was in that instant that I thought I had to die in order to get to the "other universe", which made me think I had discovered what the after-life really was. I pulled myself from the very real but unfortunately self-aware part of my mind, and darted to tell someone, which still heavily induced

Another time... The last time... I felt obsessed with it. I made my friend sit next to me and she recorded my speech and when I tried to write what I was seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling. The same world appeared every time I tripped and it was bugging me as to what it was. I knew the people there, they knew me, and they said I wasn't supposed to be there, because I chose, a long time ago, to stay here, in reality. By the way, the way I would describe my vision at the point of tripping is literally the world out of my left eye melting, and in my right eye, the real world as I know it, but I was being controlle by the chromatic looking squiggly lines we see behind our eyelids. These had become sentient, self-aware life-forms in my brain that were visually controlling my every move. They stopped my pen from telling my friend that they even existed. They wouldn't let me talk, either. I had to change the subject "or else", it seemed, so I slammed the pen down out of frustration, and my friend said I looked very very sad and just gave up saying "nevermind... Just... Nevermind, I'll drop it". And when I did, I begun to come out of the trip.

I got the point, it seemed, because I am terrified of going back. I feel like I'm too close to an answer I'm not supposed to have, but I have it anyway. Like, it's bad enough that I have the answer to all things, but my mind is keeping it from me. I'm scared, and I need like-minded pursuers of all that is intellectual understanding and reasoning, to explain with me, what I've been experiencing.

Has my mind played tricks on me and over-exaggerrated an emotion deep within?
Or did I truly honestly remember/experience/understand another universe that my consciousness lived or lives in?

And since the entire page of posts seems literally identical to my recent thought process, will your answers simply be the universe telling me what it wants me to think in order to hide the truth? ... Or am I not alone here... Are there others in this world that saw something similar, at least, to what I saw?

 

[SpecialK_]

Any type of psychiatric medication usually takes more than two weeks to start having an effect, especially if it's an SSRI (which according to your description is probably what he got).

Why don't people realize this? Salvia is hot water! I'd say about 99.9% of the population shouldn't even go near it, not even most trippers. The effects will prove nothing more than hell for most people.

Salvia is another one that seems to somehow land in random teenagers (who don't tend to use drugs, except weed) hands. I've no idea why, possibly because it's legal and most people who smoke weed and some point try Salvia. It seems to be a lot more well known than the likes of mescaline/DMT too.
The unfortunate thing about this too is that they do it in the likes of a joint and have no idea how to smoke it properly to engage in a full trip.

You should maybe talk to your friends and find out why they are being so negative about the situation. I honestly think it's something underlying, after 6 months you would be fairly used to seeing stuff breathe, etc, something else is clearly bothering your friends or for some reason they are thinking the worst of it. Although it might be an uncomfortable experience, it's not the end of the world, it might be worth reminding them that people go blind and would do a lot to get it back, even if it came with some HPPD. No means to sound ignorant intended, it's just possible that something like this might help them be more positive about things.

 

[Nateup]

I once saw an intelligent man on a documentary say "right now we are all sitting around the campfire that is "the source"... or "god". The light of the fire creates shadows or silhouette that dance around on the trees, rocks, and backdrop of the earth. These dancing silhouettes are just the shadows of our true selves - not the real deal. The shadows dancing are our physical bodies living in this existence. The real us is still sitting around the campfire - light of god."

Maybe the real essence of the true us - before the self (the "I am" before "Nateup" in "I am Nateup") is always, always has been, and always will be (especially if time is an illusion as many signs point) in that other universe you visited (and I have too exactly as you are describing)... or went back to. Maybe you brought the self back there where it doesnt really belong - you did note being "self aware" in that state. Maybe you brought the projection (self) back to the source, thereby turning off the projection (for all reasonable purposes according to your account). Like turning off a flashlight that previously shined light into this world as the whole real purpose of its existence?... maybe what it is trying to tell you is that you should focus on bringing the source (light) into this world (like you do through meditation and other means of ego/self softening that allow the light to shine on through this world) instead of trying to take the self back to the source (when the real you is already there)? Maybe the whole idea of wanting to get back there by these means is only a phenom of the self and thats why you could never belong there by those means? But then again, here you are - shining on in this world as a result, so...
Just thoughts. I actually probably learned more about myself with these ideas than you will learn from anything I said here lol
And I totally feel you on the desperate hunger for knowledge and understanding... and really longing for others to share the journey with. I am actually very lonely in that sense but I still never let my wifes stop hearing about all this kind of info.

 

[RhythmSpring]

To the OP:

It sounds like a salvia-induced existential crisis, not HPPD. It isn't a chemical "break" or physical one--it's going too far into the Salvia world, and being shown the things that humans are not (yet?) meant to see/know. This fucks with people's heads. A bit of salvia is like an injection of extremely concentrated wisdom... and some people cannot handle it. There is a REASON why the secrets of the universe are SECRETS.

Humans like to know everything--but as truth-seekers we need to respect that not all is meant to be known.

I personally have gained a lot of wholesome wisdom from Salvia. I do 5x, 10x. I do not "break through" or go off into other worlds. I allow Salvia to teach me about my own mind.

Let salvia teach you to be a good human, not show you the secrets of the universe for some kind of ego-based metaphysical conquest. It gets dangerous out there.

 

[ParalyticSHOCK]

Salvia extracts are extremely potent and should never be taken lightly. When I was in high school there were kids who would smoke others on it just to watch them trip out and freak out.

This is NOT the way to go. People think "Oh, it makes you high. Sure I'll do it even though I have no experience with other pyschedelic drugs!"

The thing people are neglecting is "set and setting". In my (not so professional) opinion, these kinds of trips are extremely dangerous as people are in a very vulnerable state and begin to feel like a spectacle when their sober friends are all giggling and asking if the user is "fucked up". I find the wrong environment can be extremely traumatic to some users and can often result in semi-permanent anxiety disorders which can be confused for HPPD (due to the derealization and depersonalization).

Honestly, I'm sorry to hear your friend is having issues and I hope they get well. I suggest they stay away from drugs in general (even weed) for a while, and ESPECIALLY powerful psychedelics like salvia. Time off can work wonders.