-
MDMA &
Empathogenic
Drugs
Welcome Guest! -
How we rolled in the 90s when the pills were super strong
- Thread starter mark881
- Start date
futura2012
Bluelighter
What helped me with all the hexagon shit is this chapter. I found it really easy to follow and not too technical. I was clueless before reading this.
Organic Chemistry Cp1 - How to Read Bond Line Drawings.pdf
http://www.4shared.com/folder/3FnGm_lT/Chemistry.html
Have a brief look at Shulgins PIHKAL, cross reference a few of the terms in Wikepedia and trust me you will understand enough for it to make sense.
http://www.4shared.com/folder/nM4gT-vL/General_Synthesis.html
Come on you have to do it. Without this our debate comes to a crashing halt... Put the crayons down and get that brain whirring :D
Thanks for your effort posting all those diagrams and explainations Vader. (by the way Vader aint no 'cut & paste' kid)
Last edited:
Folley
Bluelighter
Most of these theories have never even been discussed before lol..
I don't see where you're going with all this hexagonal shit though lol, all that tells us is that MDMA is MDMA and should always be the same unless it's a different isomer somehow.
2,3-MDMA is probably never used in large scale productions because it's less potent and has less SERT activity, and we know that basically every synthesis leads to racemic unless you do a chiral seperation.... so all we should really need to focus on is 3,4-MDMA HCL
futura2012
Bluelighter
Letting the Chemistry Pot Stew for a moment. A bluelight member has kindly sent me this recent post.
Please dont say burnt out raver.
Please dont say full stomach.
Please dont say nostalgia.
We hear this story time and time again. The user in this report references MDMA powder being different and longer lasting than the pill.
Why is the super pill so short lived. They are clearly strong doses of MDMA.
The topic of the mint returns..
If it aint salt what is it?
From a metabolism perspective its being metabolised faster than regular molly. I cant see what would cause this other than something in the way its made.
I was actually referring to vader not my vapourised brain LOL
Please dont say burnt out raver.
Please dont say full stomach.
Please dont say nostalgia.
We hear this story time and time again. The user in this report references MDMA powder being different and longer lasting than the pill.
Why is the super pill so short lived. They are clearly strong doses of MDMA.
The topic of the mint returns..
If it aint salt what is it?
From a metabolism perspective its being metabolised faster than regular molly. I cant see what would cause this other than something in the way its made.
I was actually referring to vader not my vapourised brain LOL
Last edited:
Duration is certainly something that IS DIFFERENT between Euro pills of 1990-1995 era.
As an example the Pink Diamond pills ended 90minutes dead. And the Green Squares end 75mins dead.
I experimented with Green Squares - upping the dose to 1.3 or 1.5 pills gave you a 2 hour roll. However, at 1.5 pills it was a bit much, I am guessing around 180mg MDMA. I hit an almost MDMA overload point, similar to when you've smoked too much dope and just feel a bit fucked and out of it.
Meanwhile I would take 1/2 circa early 90s pill and it would do me 3 hours min. The Doves from then were quite crumbly, so I do not think it's timed release or anything.
One thing I will definitely say is the amount of amphet is greatly reduced in todays Euro pills - and they are less hard on the body.
As an example the Pink Diamond pills ended 90minutes dead. And the Green Squares end 75mins dead.
I experimented with Green Squares - upping the dose to 1.3 or 1.5 pills gave you a 2 hour roll. However, at 1.5 pills it was a bit much, I am guessing around 180mg MDMA. I hit an almost MDMA overload point, similar to when you've smoked too much dope and just feel a bit fucked and out of it.
Meanwhile I would take 1/2 circa early 90s pill and it would do me 3 hours min. The Doves from then were quite crumbly, so I do not think it's timed release or anything.
One thing I will definitely say is the amount of amphet is greatly reduced in todays Euro pills - and they are less hard on the body.
futura2012
Bluelighter
Thats interesting what you say about those diamonds. I think they were 125mG mdma from those gc/ms tests just to clarify.
You up the dose to 1.5 and get too fucked up.
I had my last super pill last year and it was very intense come up totally out of it but the duration very short lived. I soon wanted more.
MDMA powder is very different. Much more mellow feeling and much longer duration.
I dont think this is Amphet MDEA or adulterant related.
I really think its something in the synthesis of those new pills. Maybe its something we have overlooked?
I wish the owner of the defqon lab would just appear and put us all out of our misery. :D
You up the dose to 1.5 and get too fucked up.
I had my last super pill last year and it was very intense come up totally out of it but the duration very short lived. I soon wanted more.
MDMA powder is very different. Much more mellow feeling and much longer duration.
I dont think this is Amphet MDEA or adulterant related.
I really think its something in the synthesis of those new pills. Maybe its something we have overlooked?
I wish the owner of the defqon lab would just appear and put us all out of our misery. :D
Yep, this is one of the main reasons I prefer caps. Some people claim that pills have a better come up feeling, not sure I agree, but imo that doesn't make up for a shorter duration anyway
blah blah
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2011
- Messages
- 492
Futura have you familiarized yourself with Mints yet? As in read over some of the dozens of reports on PR? They've been America's best and most consistent press over the last 4 years in a pretty wide variety of mathematically related stamps and in many colors, especially all the wacky ones starting this spring. From my experience with them, they are the most unique pills in all aspects. Appearance, press quality, size, dose, and most importantly, the MDMA in them and the roll they provide. The edata one I posted here, the Green Bowling Ball, the only Mint ever to make it to edata, is just one of many and as you commented yourself, one of poor looking quality aesthetically and extremely small packing such a whollop, again adding to their uniqueness.
The point to all this is, there has not been any factual evidence of an adulterated Mint in 4 years and these little things are very much mass produced and own the Mid-West USA having choked out a strong presence of the rest of the US garbage pills. What could it possibly be in Mint MDMA that is so different than any other roll I've felt in 5 years? You want the Defqon chemists to chime in here, I want the MintMan chemists haha. I very much prefer Mints to Dutch presses.
It's too bad you can't roll anymore. I'd personally hand deliver some Mints to the UK so you could get a personal experience of what I'm talking about.
The point to all this is, there has not been any factual evidence of an adulterated Mint in 4 years and these little things are very much mass produced and own the Mid-West USA having choked out a strong presence of the rest of the US garbage pills. What could it possibly be in Mint MDMA that is so different than any other roll I've felt in 5 years? You want the Defqon chemists to chime in here, I want the MintMan chemists haha. I very much prefer Mints to Dutch presses.
It's too bad you can't roll anymore. I'd personally hand deliver some Mints to the UK so you could get a personal experience of what I'm talking about.
Last edited:
avcpl
Bluelighter
What is baffling to me is how different one roll can be to the next with the exact same product. I keep a "roll journal" and document each and every time I roll and keep track of all relevant variables including product, dosage, time consumed, break between rolls, stomach contents, setting, company, pre-load, post-load, etc. etc. etc. (yes, I'm anal about some things).
And even with all variables being as equal as possible even then some rolls are great and some are disappointing. (been using the same dose from the same lab-tested product for several rolls now).
And even with all variables being as equal as possible even then some rolls are great and some are disappointing. (been using the same dose from the same lab-tested product for several rolls now).
futura2012
Bluelighter
Do you have any journals you can add on here avcpl. Do you haveany of the European imports? such as the defqon / triforce / speaker etc?
That is something else we havent really considered. Is there anything you feel might affect this? Or unknown reason?
Let me see a few more blah. I wont google or i might be looking at the wrong thing. Pillreports always confuses me a bit as so many people post stuff with no pics etc. I always find it tricky to find what you are looking for.
Just seen the first fake of a defqon lab pill. the famous green lacoste. The largest recorded dose so far. I guess if you were going to make a fake this is the one to copy.
FAKE. 90mG Caffeine dont know why they bother with anything.
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2600
ORIGINAL This ones 150mG but I have seen a gc/ms report 220mG. interesting how they change the dose.
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2594
If you want a US garbage pill just look at this latest offering. My god who makes this? I suppose at least we can thank them for actually getting some MDMA in the pill LOL.
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2585
I sure do want the mint man to chime in as well! Would also be nice to get some input from phase_dancer as well. i might PM him and see if we can get some input thinking about it.
well if you think my posts might shed a hint of OCD. Send them over and watch what happens LOL.
I almost feel tempted but unfortunately I got zapped really hard by BZP. I hope one day I will just come on here and announce I AM BETTER. I live in hope.
Those mints are clearly USA made. Amazing how they havent got busted by the DEA. Must be very smart how they operate. I guess if the product is anything to go by. Just looking at the pill it looks like a really low profile and underground lab. Would be interested to see some more.
avcpl
Bluelighter
sorry, but no. All my rolls are old skool pokeballs (before the copycats!) In fact these are mine that I sent in:
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1901
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1900
I consume 1.75 pills with out re-dosing. I estimate that to be about 150mg of MDMA.
That is the question! Because I'm very confident that my product is consistent since it is all from the same batch.
I don't know if there is just different variance in brain chemistry at different times (for example oxytocin levels, something that we don't really know a whole lot about as far as specific triggering, receptors, storage, production).
Mental attitude plays a part for sure and although I may try consciously to maintain a consistent attitude, perhaps my sub-conscious is playing a role?
I continue to experiment to see just what it may be that makes one roll ok and another truly epic. Doing such things as abstaining from all pleasure a week before a roll (no orgasm, no sweets, no caffeine etc.) but that didn't have any effect (thank goodness, it was difficult to do! lol)
It's also interesting how different aspects of a roll can be different even with the same product/dose/setting/etc. For example, some times the music is so amazing and other times it's just good but it's the visuals that are captivating. And still other times it may be the tactile or oral aspect that stands out.
It is such a complex drug!
The sad thing about that pill:
Marquis Test: Dark Blue
Mecke Test: Dark Blue
Some poor kid is all proud of himself for getting a test kit and his test shows presence of MDMA, so he's ready to roll!
So someone who knows what they're talking about actually posts something intelligent in this forum and the response is "dood shut up i just wanna roll bawlz"? For me, BL is all about learning, hostility to intelligent discussion is really pretty stultifying and dissuades posters from coming in this forum to post.
EDIT: futura's right, I don't ctrl-c-ctrl-v, I wrote and drew everything in that post. Fuck my haters.
EDIT: futura's right, I don't ctrl-c-ctrl-v, I wrote and drew everything in that post. Fuck my haters.
Last edited:
blah blah
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2011
- Messages
- 492
@Futura... To see the variety of Mints go to Pillreports and click the search tab. In the "pill name" box, simply type Mint and go. It will pull up a large amount of reports on all different kinds. There have been a couple attempts, poor ones I might add, to copy the Mints with garbage contents. I should have clarified in my last post, but when I said Mints have "choked out a lot of the US garbage pills," I meant only out of that region of the northern part of the Mid-West US. It's few and far between to see crap pills reported in that area.
@Vader... I hope your last comment was not spurred on by my earlier jokes with Yanker. I've been a part of this thread since the beginning at wanting to get to the bottom of the chemistry differences here and the jokes with him were not meant to brush your compound analysis post aside. It was helpful to read, although it took me 3 or 4 times to read it over, slower each time, to grasp it all lol. Don't take our smart ass comments about it to each other offensively. We both have a smart ass nature while still getting our education here. Trust.
@Vader... I hope your last comment was not spurred on by my earlier jokes with Yanker. I've been a part of this thread since the beginning at wanting to get to the bottom of the chemistry differences here and the jokes with him were not meant to brush your compound analysis post aside. It was helpful to read, although it took me 3 or 4 times to read it over, slower each time, to grasp it all lol. Don't take our smart ass comments about it to each other offensively. We both have a smart ass nature while still getting our education here. Trust.
avcpl
Bluelighter
From what I understand, the brain tries to maintain a level of homeostasis so when serotonin levels are low, receptors up-regulate in response (this is why I don't take 5HTP after a roll, to let everything naturally even out).
The problem is when MDMA is abused serotonin levels remain low and then receptor density keeps increasing to try to "even things out". People with clinical depression often have more receptors than normal.
source:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111205165114.htm
"They found that Ecstasy users had increased levels of serotonin-2A receptors and that higher lifetime use of the drug (higher doses) correlated with higher serotonin receptor levels. "
Folley
Bluelighter
Where is that hostility coming from..? All I see is a bunch of people who want to get to the bottom of this... most of us just have little to no chemistry background. Although, I still am only 16... I've just started my research.
Yup yup. This causes the serotonin to down regulate technically, because you need more serotonin to have the same effect that it had before.
I didn't know depressed people actually had MORE receptors though, that's quite surprising. Good find.
futura2012
Bluelighter
I understand your frustration Vader I bet that post took you ages to write. I for one definitely value your input and everyone else does also. I guess as that is one of the most complex posts to date sometimes its easier to not respond just incase as a novice we fuck it up.
Please dont despair or get upset I will give it a go
Having someone that does know the fuck about what their on about really does help.
I think a mixture of "Science Chat" and " These Pilz Rock" makes this thread a lot of fun. Everyone can rock in on what ever level they like.
I guess why I was pointing this out is because when looking at this process from a clandestine perspective it seems no one usually bothers. I think this is because MDA is already an active product also this conversion process seems to produce low yields. Would the body also produce a low yield? What happens to the waste from these body reactions? How the fuck can we do this without combined heater stirrers, condensors etc.
Wiki definitions
Methyl group - Methyl group is an alkyl derived from methane, containing one carbon atom bonded to three hydrogen atoms —CH3
Alpha position - The alpha carbon in organic chemistry refers to the first carbon that attaches to a functional group
So looking at your diagram referring to the 'hexagon shit' in laymens talk 'amphetamine' its a squiggley line coming off an aromatic ring at 2oclock. And to define an amphetamine one of these squiggley lines must have nothing at the end of it indicating 3 Hydrogen atoms?
Is therefore shapes 2,3,and 4 amphetamines? fuck knows what 1 is?
Its the stick thats not attached to anything. The end of the stick 'referring to bond line drawing' is the one carbon atom by default having three hydrogen atoms because its not connected.
The fourth amphetamine has two 'lone sticks' one connected alone to the aromatic ring. Would I be write in saying this has two Methyl groups? also has two alpha positions?
Is this like the way you have highlighted this alpha-methylphenethylamine it has five descriptions in it. Ie five different descriptions of what it is.
You could break MDMA up to be (3) (4) (Methylenedioxy) (N) (Methyl) (Amphetamine) and shuffle the words round however you desire?
In this formation 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,a-dimethylphenethylamine. I assume a-dimethylphenethylamine means Methyl Amphetamine.
Hopefully I understand it. Its a language thats for sure..
Substituent - substituent is an atom or group of atoms substituted in place of a hydrogen atom on the parent chain of a hydrocarbon.
Ethylamine Chain - Ethylamine is an organic compound with the formula CH3CH2NH2. The chain is the line that comes off the ring.
just out of interest does this have no ethylamine? because theres no CH3? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-B-FLY
Where I am confused is MDMA doesnt have CH3CH2NH2 it has CH3CH2NH? Why is this?
So in layman terms 3,4 in relation to MDMA means where another group of atoms is attached to the primary aromatic ring.
Is this so you are able to draw the line diagram using just the chemical name?? You have all the jigsaw pieces from the name but the numbers give you the position of where to draw? by convention you use where the ethlamine chain connects as position 1 and count anti clockwise from there.
Methyl group - Methyl group is an alkyl derived from methane, containing one carbon atom bonded to three hydrogen atoms —CH3
hasnt this molecule got three methyl groups? I see three ends all having three hydrogens?
So it seems you can count either clockwise or anticlockwise from position 1?
Just so you understand what I am saying assume counting anticlockwise. if 2,3 mdma is an isomer then i assume 5,6 is the other isomer?
Switching back to how you count either clockwise or anticlockwise is the isomer position 2,3 then indicated by 2,3+ or 2,3- instead of 2,3 and 5,6?
Now I actually think about this I get confused???
If 3,4 and 4,5 are the same. Is this Racemic MDMA?
this means 2,3 and 5,6 are the same. if so why the + and -
Are there theoretically four types of + or - charged mdma?
So when Severely said this:
d-3,4-MDMA and l-3,4-MDMA means (counting anticlockwise 3,4 and 4,5) (assuming the d and l refers to the position so you can use just 3,4)
Enantiomer meaning non-superposable (not identical). I thought you said it was ideantical??
I assume to be totally correct this should say "What about + 2,3-MDMA or -2,3-MDMA? Meaning has an MDMA isomer ever been detected on GC/MS?
The S+R and the D+L also gets confusing as well. I assume this must be some other form of chemistry language.
I hope you dont mind the questions.
A lot of the confusion seems mainly based around a TRANSLATION process.
Very interesting all the 'Hexagon Shit' means a bit more now LOL.
futura2012
Bluelighter
Amphetamines
Bottom diagram is Mephedrone 4-methylmethcathinone
Different MDMAs
Still, we are no closer to the difference between 90-95 pills and current pills. I definitely believe there is more amphet in them. Last night I took 2.5 green squares, that is probably around 300mg MDMA. Still, it did not reach the peaks of an early 90s 1/2 Dove. Still, today I went to work and it was fine, so sure the high is not as high but the comedown is nothing in comparison.
Folley
Bluelighter
Meth/amphetamine potentiates MDMA so much it's not even funny. I've taken a 30mg dose with a little bit of meth and some ritalin snorted and I rolled pretty damn hard.
Like, I felt loved up for a good 4 hours, obviously really tweaky but I was dancing all over and blowing up my phone... not something I normally do on speed lol.
What was the dose of the speed in the combo pills? Like 10-15mg is really more than enough to add that energy to your roll
Like, I felt loved up for a good 4 hours, obviously really tweaky but I was dancing all over and blowing up my phone... not something I normally do on speed lol.
What was the dose of the speed in the combo pills? Like 10-15mg is really more than enough to add that energy to your roll
^Think about it. It might seem strange to just put a little bit of meth in a pill instead of just selling it separate. However, MDMA is about as addictive as caffeine. If you even put a little bit of meth, it's just so fiendish that you'd end up using and buying much more.
I think the inactive ingredients might play a bigger role than you all think. Real pharmaceutical tablet manufacturing is a science unto itself. Sometimes changing the formula for a pill can have a dramatic effect on absorbtion. Compare Restoril(which never was a big drug of abuse in the US) to Normison(Most sought after benzo in some countries) or Mandrax and Quaalude to other methaqualone preparations. Some of the other brands of temazepam and methaqualone were weaker, even though they had more methaqualone or temazepam. Or buffered aspirin vs. regular aspirin. Yeah I know they're not MDMA, just using examples.
I've noticed that with pharmaceutical generic pills, although there seems to be exactly the amount stated, sometimes the absorption seems to be anywhere from about 20minutes slower or faster. IIRC the FDA requires that the absorption must be about 85% like the brand name. I can only imagine the variance in street pills, taken various ROAs.
It could be argued that if the pills or pure crystals are crushed up or dissolved it'd be the best. However, other inactives may effect the ph, act as surfactants, aid or hinder absorption, break up easily or difficultly, etc. Also particle size, pressure of the press, mixing method, etc. can have an effect.
The salt can also play a role. I have wondered what the saccharate, hydrobromide, pamonate, aspartate, adipate, and resinate of MDMA would be like. Or a soft gel, that would stand out; has one been made or found? Fuck that be cool if there was a pill like Valium or Klonopin with a shaped hole; Bet the candy kids would love it.
Interesting thing I read in the UN World Drug Report 2012 is that X cooks have moved away from using MDP2P and are now using something else. Not sure what, but it might have different impurities.
Maybe some are just pros who know exactly what they're doing and take pride in their work, the preparation and tableting. Others are just cooks following a recipe and have a pill press. I would guess that there's more of the latter now, strictly for the $.
I believe yaba pills in Asia are just caffeine and methamphetamine, with a little ethyl vanillin, dye(usually red), and sometimes a trace of opiates.futura2012 said:
I think the inactive ingredients might play a bigger role than you all think. Real pharmaceutical tablet manufacturing is a science unto itself. Sometimes changing the formula for a pill can have a dramatic effect on absorbtion. Compare Restoril(which never was a big drug of abuse in the US) to Normison(Most sought after benzo in some countries) or Mandrax and Quaalude to other methaqualone preparations. Some of the other brands of temazepam and methaqualone were weaker, even though they had more methaqualone or temazepam. Or buffered aspirin vs. regular aspirin. Yeah I know they're not MDMA, just using examples.
I've noticed that with pharmaceutical generic pills, although there seems to be exactly the amount stated, sometimes the absorption seems to be anywhere from about 20minutes slower or faster. IIRC the FDA requires that the absorption must be about 85% like the brand name. I can only imagine the variance in street pills, taken various ROAs.
It could be argued that if the pills or pure crystals are crushed up or dissolved it'd be the best. However, other inactives may effect the ph, act as surfactants, aid or hinder absorption, break up easily or difficultly, etc. Also particle size, pressure of the press, mixing method, etc. can have an effect.
The salt can also play a role. I have wondered what the saccharate, hydrobromide, pamonate, aspartate, adipate, and resinate of MDMA would be like. Or a soft gel, that would stand out; has one been made or found? Fuck that be cool if there was a pill like Valium or Klonopin with a shaped hole; Bet the candy kids would love it
. Interesting thing I read in the UN World Drug Report 2012 is that X cooks have moved away from using MDP2P and are now using something else. Not sure what, but it might have different impurities.
Maybe some are just pros who know exactly what they're doing and take pride in their work, the preparation and tableting. Others are just cooks following a recipe and have a pill press. I would guess that there's more of the latter now, strictly for the $.