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How to Increase Tolerance without losing Pain Relief?

Unlucky

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
594
I have a very severe opioid sensitivity resulting all sorts of adverse reactions. Suprisingly though after persistence I have been sucesful in desensitisng myself to most of the opiods that have caused me grief, but there is a problem with my desensitisation technique and Im confused and need help from you guys...

The problem is... although I am able to sucesfully desensitise myself to opiods through very slowly increasing my dosage everyday, every time I increase my tolerance to a slightly higher level I am still falling short of adequate pain relief due the rate at which im gaining tolerance, I always seem to be a step behind from getting the most out of my medication, if I increase too fast I get severe adverse reactions if I increase to slow I gain tolerance and lose the pain relief effects....

Fo example I took 10ml of oxycodone oraly for my pain but ended up having a hell of a time with adverse reactions feeling like i was fighting for my life, but it did help with the pain, so the I made it my mission to try and desensitise myself to oxycodone believing that once my body accepts it i could take the 10ml without any issues and get good pain relief. So I began taking a daily dose of .05 ml of OXYCODONE HYDROCHLORIDE Oral solution for 1 week without any side effects or pain relief, next week I took it up to 1 ml with still no side effects, I decided to jump up to 6 ml, then ..boom, another adverse reaction, so i went back down to 3 ml still no side effects, I slowly worked my way up to 10 ml and suprisngly without any side effects =D but the problem is when I eventually got to 10 ml I found that it was no longer enough for pain relief. :| Sure I reached my target and I am happy about that I am now able to take the exact same dose that had me fighting for my life previously but it took so long to get there that in the process 10 ml ended up no longer being enough for pain relief.

So I am now wondering if I decide to jump from 10ml to 20 ml suddenly because 10 ml is not helping with pain would I most likely have an adverse reaction or would the tolerance I gained over the past few weeks somehow make it easier on my body. I know I can eventually slowly get to 20 ml but if I do it slowly then I will gain tolerance and get no pain relief so the key here is to find a balance where I can increase it slightly more rapidly to get enough pain relief and to avoid an adverse reaction.

Further more if I take a week or two off from using oxycodone and go back to it a week later and take 10ml I found that I still end up having an adverse reaction to it because once my tolerancce goes back down down I have to start the desensitisation program all over again from scratch.

The other problem is the lack of cross tolerance, before the oxy I was on the oral liquid morphine which I desensitised myself to but when my doctor switched me over to oral liquid hydromorphone I ended up having a severe reaction to a smaller dose (1/5) of the hydromorphone even though I had gained tolerance to the morphine. I read that sometimes morphine can get converted into hydromorphone in the body but if thats the case why was I so sensitive to switching medications, if I switch back from hydromorphone back to the morphine would I be just as sensitive to the morphine or would I be better able to tolerate it due to having used a something that is supposedly 5 times stronger than morphine?

What if I gain tolerance to a more powerful opiod like Fentanyl then would that mean I can now tolerate all the other opioids or have less adver reactions like respiratory depression from suddenly switching from fentanly to morphine because of the change in strength? Or is the difference in class more likely to cause the adverse effects rather than the strength?
 
yep.....and my penis is so big that it hurts most girls.......


some guys get all the luck huh lol
 
on a more serious note.....

have u perhaps tried tramadol. this atypical opioid has been known to carry less side-effects. some find it quite effective for pain relief. it might be worth it to give it a try.
also, in an attempt to build your tolerance, u might find it useful to take small doses every few hours. wait until your last dose is just about at baseline and then take perhaps half of what u previously took. in this way, your plasma levels will pretty constantly have an opioid present. having opioids in your system at all times is usually a sure-fire way to raise tolerance.

i cannot believe im giving advice on how to raise tolerance
 
i cannot believe im giving advice on how to raise tolerance

Haha ye, crazy world aint it?

Actually tramadol is the only opioid I failed miserably at desensiting myself to, its just so unpredictable for me. One day its great and then the next day im in the energency room with all sorts of symptoms, dunno why maybe its SSRI effects on the serotonin and my neurological illness have something to do with it...

As for your advice on taking small doses every hour, that exactly what I did with the oxy, so it seems I was on the right track but even though Im using meds for pain relief I dont even know what an oxy, hydromorphone, or morphene euphoria or high actually feels like because when I take small doses every hour I continually build tolerance without getting any pain relief or euphoria effects. It feels as if ive taken nothing. Is there at least a way where I can feel what ive taken but also be tolerant enough to it that I dont have an adverse reaction?
 
well, tolerance generally = less pain relief.

what you need to do is just keep slowly upping the oxycodone, or whatever else you're taking until you reach adequate pain relief. you're currently taking 10ml of liquid oxycodone, right? what's your regimen for this? 2ml 5x a day? 5ml 2x a day? And what's the concentration of this liquid oxycodone?

It might be that your dose is still too low to provide painkilling effects. On the days when you said you went straight to 10ml, was this 10ml all at once? taking a dose all at once will provide stronger painkilling effects for its duration, so you may end up having to take 30ml of oxycodone throughout the day to provide effective all day relief. once you get comfortable with the higher doses, have you considered a time-released medicine? Or is there some particular reason you're only taking liquid medicines?
 
Hi,

Thats sorta my problem, I found slowly upping the oxycodone = little or no pain relieif and no sensation of it even being there. Fast upping = adverse reactions.

I currently take 10ml of oxycodone liquid at once a day which is 5ml X 2 and in between I take smaller 0.1 ml doses throughout the day to keep my tolerance up, Im taking a brand name Oxynorm - OXYCODONE HYDROCHLORIDE Oral solution 5 mg per 5 mL, 250 mL , the reason why Im taking liquid medicines is so I have better control over the desensitisation by adjusting the dosage more accurately to suit my needs. I always stay away from time-released because when I have an adverse reaction it means I have to put up with the it for a longer duration.

Due to my neurological condition my body is unstable and some days Im more sensitive to meds than others so my reaction differs so oral liquid solution is good in the way also that its short acting when I have a bad reaction.
 
well, i mean keep upping it until you reach adequate relief. as far as pain relief, 10mg of oxycodone a day spread out in 2 doses is just the tip of the iceberg. there are some CP patients here who are prescribed upwards of 180mg of oxycodone a day.

what i'm talkin about is to keep going on the oxycodone liquid. keep pushing it until you reach 20mg or 30mg a day. this should start to give you more pain relief. you said you up the dose by 2-3mg a week? so unfortunately, it would take 1-2 months to reach the 20-30mg level. however, tolerance to the painkilling effects takes longer than this in most people.

what i'm thinking is going on is when you upped your dose by 5-10mg, you finally reached a concentration where you noticed the painkilling effects. whereas right now, your blood plasma levels are low enough that you don't notice them.
 
Ok thanks fort the tip, I will continue on with it.

The other issue Ive had in the past is that once I build my tolerance to a certain level say of 20ml dose and then take a break for a week or a few days, but then when I go back to using 20ml I end up having a bad reaction because my tolerance went back down again, so now I feel apprehensive in the mornings when I wake up to take my first dose thinking what if the duration I took to sleep overnight slightly reduced my tolerance?

Overnight is probly not long enoff to reduce tolerance but how long is before the medication starts to clear out of my system?
 
Best advice is to get pain-relief from non-opioid analgesics. Diclofenac, Nefopam, Pregabalin, etc

Or, try a strong opioid analgesic that has a better side effect profile. What kind of side effects do you get from the different opioids you've tried? Generally people who have sensitivty to side effects do horribly with natural (Morphine, Codeine) and semi-synthetic (Oxycodone, Hydromorphone) opioid analgesics. A synthetic agonist (Fentanyl, Levorphanol) or possibly a synthetic partial-agonist (Butorphanol, Pentazocine) might be able to provide you the pain relief of an opioid without the side effects.
 
Overnight is probly not long enoff to reduce tolerance but how long is before the medication starts to clear out of my system?

Well, since you're especially sensitive I would say maybe anything over 24 hours watch out. But I think the biggest thing to help would be sticking to a very very strict regimen. Take it religiously, even if it means staying up late every night or waking up early every morning. Because I think in the end it will be worth it, not having pain and not having those extra ER trips. And I know you said you stay with liquid because you can control it much better but it might be worth it to look into some ER medications so you could sleep and not worry about taking another dose as soon as you wake up.

Tchort: you might wanna read up on his first post. He has autonomic dysfunction so basically anything he puts into his body other than food has a strong potential for a bad reaction. This spans every single opioid he's tried, and even many non-opioids he's tried. He's tried fentanyl as well at a miniscule dose and still had a bad reaction, as well as excess histamine release, even though fentanyl is known for not causing histamine release. And his side effects are the kind that generally require a hospital visit.
 
What kind of side effects do you get from the different opioids you've tried?

I actually made a list of my adverse reactions some of them whilst experiencing them...

-Hydromorphone - Neuroexcitatory response:
Irregular heart, slow weak pulse around the low 50 bpms, with really high blood pressure 150 -170's , Difficulty breathing, and swallowing, tight throat, intense pressure build up in my head with swelling and pulsating veins in my temple. Contractions and Muscle spasms, feeling agitated, giddy and confused, fever with cold hands and feet.

-Oxycodone - Neuroexcitatory response:
Irregular heart, rapid pulse, severe muscle spasms and involuntary twitching, hyperthermia, feeling extremely agitated and unwell.

-Morphine - Sedative response:
Difficulty swallowing, tightness in throat, nauseau, dizzy, car sick type feeling but without the throwing up, Acid reflux, feeling horribly miserable, uncomfortable and agonasingly ill, shallow slow supressed breathing. Feeling like my vitals are supressed and my body is shutting down.

-Codene - Neuroexcitatory response:
- Rash, respiratory depression, wheazing in chest, chest pains, difficulty swallowing, overheating, feeling agitated, unwell, confusion, a sweaty allergic type warm pressurised feeling throughout my body.

-Fentanyl - Sedative and Neuroexcitatory response :
Respiratory depression, rash, nauseau, sedated yet agitated, supressed slow feeling like my body is shutting down, difficult swallowing.

-Tramadol (the only opioid that can give me a nice buzz but also one of the worst reactions)- Neuroexcitatory response :
Hyperthermia, hightened sense of alert agitated unsettled feeling , muscle spasms, respiratory depression, difficuly swallowing.

Ive also tried Pregabalin (Lyrica) and Gabapentin but as my pain was not of a neropathic nature it didnt help and made my Dysautonomia worse.
 
Sturnum, thanks for your help and advice:)

Nother question.... If I develop a tolerance to hydromorphone will I also have a cross tolerance to morphine? If i have an accident or emergency situation where I'm unconcious and they give me morphine at the hospital I dont want to have an adverse reaction so I would prefer to use gain tolerance to a medication that will most likely have a cross tolarance with other painkillers.

When I gained a tolerance to morphine (M) I still had sensitivity to hydromorphone (HM), but if I gain tolerance to HM will I still have a sensitivity to M?

I found this article that says...

Our data suggests that HM is 5 times more potent than M when given second (M-HM), but is only 3.7 times more potent when given first (HM-M). We therefore recommend a ratio of 5 for M/HM in rotating from M to HM and ratio of 3.7 for M/HM when rotating from HM to M in patients exposed to chronic dosing of these opioids.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9272790

I dont know what they mean though, anyone care to explain?
 
all opioids should have at least some partial cross tolerance with all others. i don't have specific amounts for one to another, nor am i sure they actually exist. the only way you'll have good cross tolerance is by being on a high dose of an opioid.

when you went from morphine to hydromorphone did you go to an equianalgesic dose? because since there's only a partial crosstolerance, (we'll say 75%) then that would mean that you were getting 25% more than you were used to. this amount seems more than sufficient to provoke a negative response in you.
 
when you went from morphine to hydromorphone did you go to an equianalgesic dose?


Well this is somewhat emberassing to say as it shows how much of a wuss I am but the first time I went on to trying hydromorphone I took 1/9 th of a dose of what I was taking of the morphine and still ended up having a pretty severe adverse reaction to it =D yes I know I'm pathetic.

I wasnt always like this though, once upon a time I was able to tolerate all psychoactive substances in massive amounts without being phased, I could easily compete with the best on BL, I had huge tolerance but then after I suffered an overdose and ended up with a neurological illness that messed up something in my brain and caused this chemical sensitivty im now stuck with.:X
 
you mean 1/9th of the equianalgesic dose right? so if your equianalgesic dose was 9mg hydromorphone, you only took 1mg right?

wow, it looks like you have almost no cross-tolerance develop. or at least not enough to make a difference.

I guess I would just keep going with the oxycodone, and if you don't get any relief at 20-30mg then it may not work with you. I don't know what else to tell you though. Looks like you definitely got the short end of the stick.
 
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