How should gender or sex be defined?

[|~~ANT~~|]

Will respond to cduggles and JessFR soon. (I left the best posts for last.)

 

[alasdairm]

Why is this even important to you?

a good question.

alasdair

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

Additionally, while there are downsides, politically there's strength in numbers. If there's any common ground at all, it's smart to stick together. If Ls Gs Bs Ts Qs and the various other letters were all their own separate political lobbying groups, they'd all be substantially less powerful. As for the downsides, this is of course also exactly how you wind up with a 2 party system.

Lesbians love pussy, like straight men. Bisexuals are half straight. Gays like dick, like straight women. Trans people often pursue straight people, sexually... and I don't know what Q or any of the other letters mean (except I)... My point is: there's common ground with everyone. I do understand the political value of the outsiders banding together against the status quo and demanding equal rights. Don't get me wrong. That makes sense to me. Although bisexuals haven't made any progress. I'm not sure what LGBT does for bisexuals, honestly. I'm not a huge fan of LGBT spaces, because I just get lumped in with a bunch of other categories. Bisexuality is kind of invisible. It's hard to speak up in these spaces because my struggle is generally regarded as lesser... and maybe it is. Attempting to change gender, along with all the surgery and the family issues and the abuse that comes along with it - from the general public - this must be incredibly difficult. I wouldn't do it. I don't really understand what it means to be trans. I don't care what gender I am, at all. I have nerve endings and skin. I am a perfectly functioning biological person. If I was a woman, I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same. If gender is a construct and it has nothing to do with biology, then why alter your biology? You can stay male while not conforming to the gender stereotypes of what it means to be a man. What is the difference between an feminine male transexual gay guy and a trans woman? The distinction is a technicality. It doesn't really mean anything. I've know many women who don't conform to the gender stereotype. My wife doesn't conform to it. She doesn't shave her legs and she doesn't wear make up. So, yeah, I don't really get trans on a personal level. But, if it was me, and I really felt an urge to become a different gender I'm pretty sure I'd weigh up the pros and cons and just say, "fuck it"... I got sidetracked here, but this is something I was going to say in response to something else anyway.

Please don't read this and assume I dislike trans people. I honestly don't really understand what it means to be trans, but I don't mean any offence by that. I'm just being honest. It doesn't fit into my philosophical / spiritual understanding of who we are and I'm not alone. If they want to call themselves a different gender, that's fine. But, that doesn't mean we need to change the definition of the word so that we don't hurt their feelings. That's a slippery slope. It is, currently, one of the things threatening freedom of speech in the United States (and, therefore, the rest of the world).

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

The hidjra are a very well-established third gender category. (Do non-English speaking countries count in these thousands of years, OP ?)

The Hijra population of India is much closer to the worldwide intersex population than it is to the trans population of the United States. *around 1/2,000* (Hijra, India) VS *around 1/2,000* (intersex, worldwide) VS *around 1/200* (trans, US)... There has never been anything like the current trans movement. No other country reflects this situation.

Hijra are mostly intersex and eunuchs. But, that's changing. The younger generation in India are now following the worldwide transgender movement. More and more non-intersex people are choosing to identify as transgender. Over 10% of the Hijra population is under the age of six... which brings me to another thing I wanted to say: It is downright immoral to transition children. Puberty blockers should be illegal.

The idea that categorizations outside of chromosomally-determined sexual norms haven't existed for thousands of years is simply wrong.

I didn't say there have been no exceptions to the norm. In Ancient Greece it was socially acceptable for men to have sex with boys. But, that was unusual. There aren't many cultures (think about how many cultures there have been) that have normalised the idea of a third gender, outside of intersex conditions.

There are people with broken SRY genes who were born physically female, grew up female, and might never realize their chromosomes are XY. Should they and society just switch to identifying them as male because their chromosomes being XY despite living their whole life as female and in the past would never have known otherwise?

Of course not, it's stupid. But that's what happens if you go by such simplistic ideas of human genetics.

Like I said, humans have five fingers. We have two eyes and two ears. Sometimes, something goes wrong. Some people are born with no eyes. Some have seven fingers on one hand and five on the other. I just had a baby, recently, so believe me when I tell you I know about all the things that can go wrong. Any part of the body can turn out imperfectly. There are also genetic disorders and chromosomal disorders. A disabled friend of mine died last month in his forties because of an unfortunate birth defect.

I don't see what any of that has to do with people who aren't intersex and don't have any genetic / chromosomal disorders, which is the vast majority of trans people in the United States.

When people talk about Hijra and other cultural examples, I don't know why they don't refer to our own culture as evidence of a so-called third gender. The terms hermaphrodite and intersex have existed in our culture for a long time. This isn't a third gender. It is a group term for sexual mutations / anomalies. If you look at the Prader scale (if you've never looked into intersex genitalia, it's quite fascinating) intersex is obviously a spectrum between one gender and another. It isn't a man trapped in the body of a woman. It's a man with a vaginal opening along the shaft of his penis or a man with a displaced urethra or a woman with a large penis-like clitoris... or a woman with a testicle, etc...

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

Why is this even important to you?

a good question.

First off, I didn't start this thread. I requested it get moved from another thread... alasdair brought it up in the Trump thread but he still hasn't responded to what freedoms Trump has restricted which is annoying because this whole trans thing is just another distraction from policy.

I care about free speech. I'm tired of people calling me names (racist / transphobic / Islamophobic) because I don't conform to their belief system. I'm tired of being told how to think and mocked if I disagree with what I'm being told... and, I find it downright disturbing the amount of social censorship and repression that's going on at the moment. Not just on this site, but everywhere.

Also: I don't think it's good for trans people, in the end, to lie to them. I don't think lying to kids helps, either. It frustrates me when I see people blatantly lying to their kids especially when they throw me a look as if I'm supposed to agree that it makes sense to lie to them. I don't know why everybody lies all the time, now, for fear of upsetting others. Maybe it's because a lot of us were raised like that?

Trans people get frustrated because it's hard for them to find non trans people to date (and there aren't a lot of trans people in lots of places in the world). Telling a man who wants to transition to a woman that this is possible is nice in theory but the reality is they don't end up being women. Most trans women have penises. The vast majority. But, they want to sleep with straight men because we're blurring the distinction between trans woman and woman, through white lies.

I fundamentally don't believe in white lies.

I hope that answers your question. Let me know if it doesn't.

I'm tired now. Need to get stoned.

 

[cduggles]

ANT, which culture is "our own" again? Your e-identity is confusing.

Your take on sexuality is crude and reductive, imo. If sexuality is solely just about genitals, then that's a limited and impoverished viewpoint.

I know a bit more about the hijra (like their existence as a third gender category for thousands of years), even at a glance.

And while it's unsurprising you don't know what LGBTQ means, you don't need to dissect your lack of knowledge in such painstaking detail here. We're all adults and can utfse.

You also don't need to overshare about your e-identity in CE&P; anecdotal evidence isn't highly regarded here. You could PM someone with whom you already have a rapport about an appropriate forum, or perhaps post in the Homeless Threads forum and a mod can direct your overshare appropriately. It would be helpful.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

i think if you look and dress like a woman, you should be called a woman. regardless of the XX or XY chromosomes. its just simplifies things if people classified based on what they look like.

androgenous types should just be called whatever they want to be called and use the bathrrom they want.

I get that scientifically/medically someone might not be a woman. But if they want to be called a woman, how about just don't be a dick and call them what they want to be called?

1) Gender is binary. Most people believe this. No woman I've ever spoken to believe trans women are women. We're happy to treat them as women, if they like, but that's different. They're not women.




.

but they aren't treated as women is why there is controversy. conservatives want to make a person that looks like a woman and can pass as a woman, use the mens bathroom. it just makes things awkward when people have someone that looks like the opposite sex in the bathroom with them. so it should be based on looks, not genitals

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

i think if you look and dress like a woman, you should be called a woman. regardless of the XX or XY chromosomes. its just simplifies things if people classified based on what they look like.

androgenous types should just be called whatever they want to be called and use the bathrrom they want.

I get that scientifically/medically someone might not be a woman. But if they want to be called a woman, how about just don't be a dick and call them what they want to be called?

I agree with everything you said, unless the person who dress and looks like a woman wants to be called a man. In that case, people should call them a man. I'm not sure what you're responding to. I will use people's preferred pronouns if they let me know what they are. Never said I wouldn't, or that people shouldn't do that... The only thing I disagree with is that people should be able to use whatever bathroom they like. We might as well not have gendered bathrooms. I don't think businesses should have to cater to a third gender and have a third bathroom. That's all I was saying.

A lot of people here are hearing things I'm not saying or just filling in the blanks and stereotyping me.

You say scientifically / medically not a woman. A male with male chromosomes and male reproductive genitalia who identifies as a woman is not a woman. I'm happy for them to identify as a woman and I'll call them she if they like. But, that doesn't alter the fact that the majority of men who want to sleep with them are not heterosexual.

Your take on sexuality is crude and reductive, imo. If sexuality is solely just about genitals, then that's a limited and impoverished viewpoint.

You mean my take on gender? Sexuality isn't solely about the genitals. I like to fuck people in the face... and I never said gender was solely about genitals either. There are a lot of non-genital differences between men and women.

ANT, which culture is "our own" again? Your e-identity is confusing.

I meant Western culture. This is an English speaking forum. CEP appears to be largely occupied by people living in Western English speaking countries (and those living abroad)... When I have discussions about trans people with Australians, they bring up Hijra. My point is, we might as well use our own words (hemaphrodite / intersex / eunuch).

And while it's unsurprising you don't know what LGBTQ means, you don't need to dissect your lack of knowledge in such painstaking detail here. We're all adults and can utfse...

You also don't need to overshare about your e-identity in CE&P; anecdotal evidence isn't highly regarded here. You could PM someone with whom you already have a rapport about an appropriate forum, or perhaps post in the Homeless Threads forum and a mod can direct your overshare appropriately. It would be helpful.

I'm courteously responding to everyone. I don't think I over-shared. A bunch of were insulting me and making assumptions, so I established context in an effort to break this stereotype. I think what I said was relevant to the subject matter.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^ oh the "don't be a dick" comment wasn't directed at you.

i generally just put my response under the quote, so just the stuff under your quotation is for you.

the top lines are just my response to people that refuse to call trans women that look like women, women

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

Fair enough. It seemed like a response to what I was saying... and I sort of would fall into that category. I will use the correct pronouns but if a trans woman asks me if I think they are the same as a non-trans woman, I will say no.

 

[invegauser]

haha, not everything is about you ANT.

question to the room: do you think when a man picks up on a woman at a bar that the woman (if she is trans, like full post op) should be forth coming and divulge this info to the man before they leave the bar or before they jump on the bad foot and do the good thing? (sex and place are just a set up, in can go in reverse and be at any location)

it's a hard question but one open to opinion and relevant to the thread i believe.

coming from a cist hetero (<---that's almost a mouthful) pov i would like to know. nothing against the way a person swings, i'm just the way i am and might be weird because of it but not judging anyone.

plus you know, if transgender definition is going to determine rights, i would like to know what my rights are in relation.

 

[cduggles]

ANT: The word "hijra" doesn't just refer to intersex or eunuchs, as you imply with your maths (do you think there are more intersex or eunuchs than trans individuals in India? Seriously? :D).

And you are the one who put out the supposedly "thousands of years" old definition of gender. Should I discuss the Romans? Neanderthal? The Greeks? How many thousands of years and how white 'Western-civilized' of a term does it need to be to make you comfortable?

An inclusive third gender category like the hijra seems to be a confusing concept to you. It's a grouping of several types of individuals, like LGBTQ. It Is also a distinct gender category that is neither female or male. It's not in-between, it's distinct. Big difference.

To drill down and ditch subtlety, the fact that you state you are married to someone who doesn't shave their legs and just had a baby are nice, but irrelevant to this discussion and anecdotal.

I get the gist of your folksy storytelling, but it also feel like the "I'm-____-and-therefore-immune-to-criticism-on-this-topic" kind of sharing. I'm just explaining that you shouldn't be surprised when people disregard your personal preferences over population-level data or their own opinions, which they don't feel the to supplement with information about their own sexual preferences, such as how you explained that you like fucking people in the face. See how that was unnecessary? And boorish?

I don't care if you are bisexual but don't want to identify as LGBTQ. Clearly, there are a lot of people who do. And if you were being harassed in your workplace for being bisexual, would you mind an amicus curaie from a powerful LGBTQ group or free legal assistance from an attorney who had experience winning these cases and was "Q"? Yes or no?

Your views on gender are facilely constructed within narrow constraints. One would think in your travels your perspective would have broadened, unless it was more touristic or expat-filled. I'm not asking, btw. Just a little surprised.

 

[swilow]

question to the room: do you think when a man picks up on a woman at a bar that the woman (if she is trans, like full post op) should be forth coming and divulge this info to the man before they leave the bar or before they jump on the bad foot and do the good thing? (sex and place are just a set up, in can go in reverse and be at any location)

it's a hard question but one open to opinion and relevant to the thread i believe.

Hmm, a difficult question. A sneaky question. . I tend towards thinking less in black and whites, so I think the appropriate action would be context and person dependant. But full post-op, I don't see any great need or obligation to reveal anything- perhaps if there is some physical give-away, than sure.

What do you think?

 

[invegauser]

@zephyr: great posts. agreed on the foundation of where to start in thinking on terms of sexuality. i personally find that people are born the way they are physically, it's not meant to be that way the rest of their lives if they choose to but your evidence supports how there are fundamentals that cannot be ignored no matter how much we wish otherwise (i don't believe in fooling around with DNA pre embryo or during incubation, it's not healthy to mess with moms, it decreases the chances of a long and happy life, mother nature more so). limitations and constraints are a drag but it's good to know we have them to work with. how a person changes themselves over time is up to them. mother nature is one thing no one can ignore, the soul and emotions are different matters all together and cannot be restrained forever by limitations, only tempered in the physical world.

i would've loved to be a fly on the wall at that party.

@swilow: good answer. totally social question and mostly relevant to the thread. sneaky in context to getting to know people more but that comes with the sharing anyway plus, i'm not trying to be underhanded; just opening up a topic in my ungraceful way.

me? yes, i would like this info to be disclosed. not because i would judge but it might save some hardships on both sides of the table when it/if becomes awkward. biologically speaking i can recognize a lot of attractive qualities in other men and even pick up on their sexuality but i can not respond to it in any way shape or form other than verbally. i.e. i don't become aroused around men. i'm not infallible, substances can blind one to certain things. i've only partially understood why i work this way: pheromones, genitals, masculinity in other men, empathy and a very few other reasons. this topic opens up a smorgasbord of other relative topics but none really to CE&P. this is the only one i could think of so i asked.

since time immemorial there has been men, women and hermaphrodites. this is simply nature. but humanity struggles against everything it has bumped into. it was simpler before rights became a topic, now that they have been i have no problem with it. i just want to know how my rights would be affected by this so i can adjust my life accordingly and in case anyone i know is transgender and what legally and politically that would look like for them. i.e. learning and being open minded.

i also have a similar outlook and agree with a lot of what LucidSDreamr said.

that's the short full disclosure. i'm sparring you the details of the full, full disclosure. that one doesn't come with the full monty either, no worries.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

@cduggles. I'm not immune to criticism. You implied my figures are wrong regarding Hijra, but didn't present any alternate data then went on to say anecdotal evidence is inferior to data. A lot of the time in these CEP discussions, and in internet discussions in general, people don't present any data. You don't have to take my word for it. You can look it up yourself. Over 10% of the trans people in India are under 6 years old. Excluding the younger population, there is a very small population of Hijra in comparison to trans people in the United States... and (like I said) the number of Hijra in India (per 100.000) is similar to the number of intersex people worldwide (per 100.000), not the number of trans people in the US.

I don't care if you are bisexual but don't want to identify as LGBTQ. Clearly, there are a lot of people who do. And if you were being harassed in your workplace for being bisexual, would you mind an amicus curaie from a powerful LGBTQ group or free legal assistance from an attorney who had experience winning these cases and was "Q"? Yes or no?

No, I wouldn't go down that route. I honestly don't know what Q means. Sometimes it's questioning and sometimes it's queer. It's confusing... I don't care if you care if I'm bisexual. People are a little uptight around here about what people are allowed to say. Somebody one here told me not to use the "f-word", recently. I honestly think I'm being friendlier towards people here, than they are towards me. Forgive me for mentioning my sexuality... Carry on.

To drill down and ditch subtlety, the fact that you state you are married to someone who doesn't shave their legs and just had a baby are nice, but irrelevant to this discussion and anecdotal.

That doesn't make sense. I wasn't using those statements as an argument.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

haha, not everything is about you ANT.

question to the room: do you think when a man picks up on a woman at a bar that the woman (if she is trans, like full post op) should be forth coming and divulge this info to the man before they leave the bar or before they jump on the bad foot and do the good thing? (sex and place are just a set up, in can go in reverse and be at any location)

it's a hard question but one open to opinion and relevant to the thread i believe.

coming from a cist hetero (<---that's almost a mouthful) pov i would like to know. nothing against the way a person swings, i'm just the way i am and might be weird because of it but not judging anyone.

plus you know, if transgender definition is going to determine rights, i would like to know what my rights are in relation.

I think if a transitioned person cares about their well-being, they should divulge it. Fact of the matter is many men when drunk get violent for little reason at all, so a lot of the violence against trans people (and gays) occurs when men are drunk. Better safe than sorry.




What I wana know is, does anyone think that it makes you 'gay' if you're indifferent to genitals as long as you're attracted to feminine features in a person?

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

What I wana know is, does anyone think that it makes you 'gay' if you're indifferent to genitals as long as you're attracted to feminine features in a person?

If you're having sex with someone with who has a penis and you're a man, it's gay sex... Gay guys like trans women. Unless they're post op, I don't see how you could possibly be straight and enjoy sucking dick. This even being a question is weird, IMO.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

If you're having sex with someone with who has a penis and you're a man, it's gay sex... Gay guys like trans women. Unless they're post op, I don't see how you could possibly be straight and enjoy sucking dick. This even being a question is weird, IMO.[/COLOR]

I identify as a straight man, am married to a woman, love pussy, and enjoy MTF trans porn. So I 100% disagree with you. If someone has any masculine features outside a dick, I get turned off. Men have come on to me assuming I'm gay or bi many times, and I've had to literally shove them away. I do not find masculinity attractive.

Your response is exactly what I anticipated, and shows that you view the world as black and white. The world is grey, just as a heads up. That's why these pronouns and definitions bother you, they express how grey the world is, and it doesn't fit in with your conception of reality.

 

[alasdairm]

^ right. gender is a mutable human concept and it's always changing. consider gender roles in the 20s compared with today...

and i find responses like "it's been like this for a very long time" unconvincing because we thought the universe revolved around the earth and the earth was a flat for a very long time and we could not have been more wrong. also "a lot of people believe this". a lot of people believed that owning other people as slaves was ok. thankfully, we've moved on from that.

alasdair

 

[tathra]

Biologically, sex determination is binary in humans that have chromosomes within normal limits.

Those of us that have abnormalities pertaining to extra X chromosomes, missing or additional parts of that X chromosome and very rare cases of Y chromosome defects are no longer binary.


The number of people affected by genetic conditions which affect their sex definition in this way is quite small, so small it is not the real issue around the sex and gender debate.

except it is. unless the meaning of the word "binary" is unknown to the people that are always claiming sex is binary (if anybody is unclear, "binary" means it can only be one of two states, thats what the "bi-" part of "binary" means), if it was binary, abnormalities couldnt exist, because, ya know, binary, it can be one or the other and nothing in between or anything else. the very existence of that "in between" state means its a spectrum, it could be a 0, a 0.1, a 0.2, a 0.3, ... , 0.8, 0.9, or 1.