How should gender or sex be defined?

[|~~ANT~~|]

Mod edit: I've moved these posts out of the trump 2018 thread into a new one since, as pointed out, they're no longer on the topic of trumps presidency - JessFR

@SheWas. responded via PM

@alasdair. A couple of things.

1) Gender is binary. Most people believe this. No woman I've ever spoken to believe trans women are women. We're happy to treat them as women, if they like, but that's different. They're not women.

a biological, immutable condition determined by genitalia at birth

This has been the definition of gender for many thousands of years. You said to explain how this is not a serious threat to "freedoms"... Can you tell me what freedom you think this infringes upon?

2) I've never understood why gays, lesbians, bisexuals and trans people are all lumped together into a single community. You said how is this an example of Trump (not) fighting for the LGBT community. But it only has relevance to the T community... I'm openly bisexual, but I don't see how that makes me closer to LGT than to heterosexuals. Not changing the definition of gender (from binary to non-binary) has no effect on lesbians, gays or bisexual people... This probably seems like a bit of a petty distinction, but it's important to me and others. There aren't a lot of spaces left for gay men. Most gay spaces have become LGBT spaces. I know a lot of gay men that don't like being lumped together into a category with lesbians and trans people.

3) Yes, he was pandering. Hillary was as well, but she probably would have followed through with what she said, bowed down to social pressures and continued pandering throughout her presidency... I don't see what Trump has done against the trans community. I don't see how trans rights are being compromised because society doesn't change dictionary definitions to suit them. A man is a man and a woman is a woman. If you want to dress up like the opposite gender and/or have plastic surgery, that doesn't change your gender...

 

[tathra]

1) Gender is binary.

only if you believe that intersex isnt a real thing. fun fact: it exists! if biological sex can only be a 0 or 1 then how do you explain the existence of one that is neither?

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

First of all, they're not neither. That's a simplification. Most intersex conditions have male or female chromosomes despite having ambiguous genitalia. This is part of the decision making process as to whether or not they should live as a boy or a girl. There are a couple of extremely rare conditions that alter the chromosomal makeup, like Klinefelter syndrome. But they are as rare as being born with an extra finger and nobody is making any effort to redefine humans in terms of their finger count.

Most trans people don't have Klinefelter syndrome.

Some men have breasts or one testicle... But that doesn't make them any less men IMO. Determining gender isn't difficult to do. It is coded in every cell in our bodies.

 

[SheWasLvL18]

I think gender is a social construct because if you look at historical societies there are multiple examples of a "third" gender. The Native American concept of a "Two-Spirit" is the first to come to mind and these individuals served functional and ceremonious roles in their society. I believe Asian cultures also have a few examples of this.

Additionally, I don't think we can look at the past with our modern views on sexuality or gender. They didn't conceptualize it the same ways we do today. What we call "homosexuality" was pretty typical in the past, though it wasn't so much an identifier or traits as much as a fun thing to do (looking at Hellenic culture).

 

[JessFR]

First of all, they're not neither. That's a simplification. Most intersex conditions have male or female chromosomes despite having ambiguous genitalia. This is part of the decision making process as to whether or not they should live as a boy or a girl. There are a couple of extremely rare conditions that alter the chromosomal makeup, like Klinefelter syndrome. But they are as rare as being born with an extra finger and nobody is making any effort to redefine humans in terms of their finger count.

Most trans people don't have Klinefelter syndrome.

Some men have breasts or one testicle... But that doesn't make them any less men IMO. Determining gender isn't difficult to do. It is coded in every cell in our bodies.

Human biology is way too complicated to define gender purely by chromosomes. Doing so causes all sorts of absurd situations.

There are people with broken SRY genes who were born physically female, grew up female, and might never realize their chromosomes are XY. Should they and society just switch to identifying them as male because their chromosomes being XY despite living their whole life as female and in the past would never have known otherwise?

Of course not, it's stupid. But that's what happens if you go by such simplistic ideas of human genetics.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

People often point to history as proof that gender is a construct, but throughout the vast majority of history gender has been used as a medical term to differentiate biology... There are actually very few examples of trans people, historically. Most societies that people point to are eunuchs (castrated men) and transvestites.

Doing so causes all sorts of absurd situations.

Like what?

 

[alasdairm]

This has been the definition of gender for many thousands of years.

so your basic position is "this is how it's always been so this is how it should stay"? i guess that's a valid conservative viewpoint but the human race wouldn't have achieved very much if that's the rule we chose to live by.

i had hoped, on this issue, that i might have received a more compassionate, nuanced response but no matter.

i disagree with you that gender is binary. i believe that sex is, broadly, binary (there are exceptions) but i do not believe that gender is binary. i fear that trying to have a discussion on this (with you) is pointless as you've made your feelings on the subject pretty crystal clear here. maybe not.

more generally, i am comforted by just assuming that people who seek to force these strict definitions on others will be reincarnated as transgender individuals and they'll spend a miserable second lifetime being told by people like themselves that something they know to be true with every fiber of their being is just stupid and not real.

can you even, for just a second, sincerely put yourselves in their shoes and try to imagine how utterly soul-destroying it must be?



alasdair

 

[JessFR]

People often point to history as proof that gender is a construct, but throughout the vast majority of history gender has been used as a medical term to differentiate biology... There are actually very few examples of trans people, historically. Most societies that people point to are eunuchs (castrated men) and transvestites.



Like what?[/COLOR]

You'll have to reread my post, I edited in an example after posting it.

And I'm really not arguing about if gender is a social construct, just that going purely by chromosomes has significant flaws.

 

[tathra]

First of all, they're not neither. That's a simplification. Most intersex conditions have male or female chromosomes despite having ambiguous genitalia. This is part of the decision making process as to whether or not they should live as a boy or a girl. There are a couple of extremely rare conditions that alter the chromosomal makeup, like Klinefelter syndrome. But they are as rare as being born with an extra finger and nobody is making any effort to redefine humans in terms of their finger count.

Most trans people don't have Klinefelter syndrome.

Some men have breasts or one testicle... But that doesn't make them any less men IMO. Determining gender isn't difficult to do. It is coded in every cell in our bodies.

so in other words, what you're saying is that biological sex isnt binary

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

Can a mod move this to another thread?

I'm happy to respond to the points raised, I just don't want to further derail the Trump thread with more tangential distractions.

 

[JessFR]

Can a mod move this to another thread?

I'm happy to respond to the points raised, I just don't want to further derail the Trump thread with more tangential distractions.

Done

 

[TheLoveBandit]

1) Gender is binary. Most people believe this. No woman I've ever spoken to believe trans women are women. We're happy to treat them as women, if they like, but that's different. They're not women.


This has been the definition of gender for many thousands of years. You said to explain how this is not a serious threat to "freedoms"... Can you tell me what freedom you think this infringes upon?

I understand the earth was flat for thousands of years. Most people believed this. Some still do.

Somethings are fact, until they no longer are.

= = =

I have my personal view, which is shaped by my personal experience - what I've grown up knowing, and what society has taught my generation. This outlines boy and girl and that's it. I'm a boy, last I checked, and never doubted it.


That said, I have known many homosexual men and women, either through BL or more recently in general population in my neighborhood and in circles of friends. Do I believe any of them are 'wrong' in any way? No, they are different in a way such that I cannot truly put myself in their shoes (I can imagine, but it falls well short, I'm sure), but their difference is also something I fully respect and would fight for their right to be. To me this is a preference (not saying they have control and made a choice, I see it as how they simply ARE), an orientation - not a right or wrong, just different from me, and that's ok. It used to not be ok for society...but society evolved.

I think society is undergoing a similar evolution in terms of gender identity. The old binary definition is relevant, but fading; and the new definition is not set yet. There is a variety of terms thrown about, and for an individual who may grab one and identify themselves by it - fine. But I don't think there are a set of agreed upon terms from which to grab as yet. And that's why we see people who cannot get past the binary view flailing with phrases like "so it is okay for someone to identify with ...." which are absurd, but for them breaking binary is also absurd. Nobody knows the new boundaries or definitions, so maybe someone WILL associate with being a plant, or a dog, or whatever...and maybe that eventually falls into the acceptable spectrum, maybe it won't. I don't think we're at the point yet to say what exists beyond binary, only that we're exploring that more is possible than binary.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Bit of a tangent, but I recall years ago we had a thread on the site linking to an article about a nullo. It was enough that we even gave 'Nullo' as a third option on your profile settings. The thread has been wiped from the site, but the original linked article is still there from about 17 yrs ago. So a third option has existed for a long time, it's just not that prevalent.

An interview with a Nullo

There are others since then - I still unload

 

[cduggles]

The hijra are a very well-established third gender category. (Do non-English speaking countries count in these thousands of years, OP ?)

The idea that categorizations outside of chromosomally-determined sexual norms haven't existed for thousands of years is simply wrong. And sometimes the cavemen didn't have microscopes with sufficient resolution to make a determination, one might think. :D

LGBTQ is an acronym, and a rather new one. However, there is a rich history of community and activism, even in a country as young as the United States, and shared elements of identity between individuals within these groups. The Stonewall riots, the battle for treatment of HIV/AIDS, the legalization of gay marriage, the fight against hate crimes and discrimination are recent examples wherein members of what is now called the LGBTQ community banded together to express unity and political will.

Surreal times.

 

[JessFR]

Thank you Jess

No probs.

The hidjra are a very well-established third gender category. (Do non-English speaking countries count in these thousands of years, OP ?)

The idea that categorizations outside of chromosomally-determined sexual norms haven't existed for thousands of years is simply wrong. And sometimes the cavemen didn't have microscopes with sufficient resolution to make a determination, one might think. :D

LGBTQ is an acronym, and a rather new one. However, there is a rich history of community and activism, even in a country as young as the United States, and shared elements of identity between individuals within these groups. The Stonewall riots, the battle for treatment of HIV/AIDS, the legalization of gay marriage, the fight against hate crimes and discrimination are recent examples wherein members of what is now called the LGBTQ community banded together to express unity and political will.

Surreal times.

Additionally, while there are downsides, politically there's strength in numbers. If there's any common ground at all, it's smart to stick together. If Ls Gs Bs Ts Qs and the various other letters were all their own separate political lobbying groups, they'd all be substantially less powerful. As for the downsides, this is of course also exactly how you wind up with a 2 party system.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Gender does not equal sex. The fact that someone like Trump doesn't understand the basics of the English language is no surprise.




How does it effect your life if someone doesn't identify as their birth 'gender' anyhow? Like seriously, please give me an example of how it effects you. Anything outside "they get offended at the wrong pronouns"?

I get pissed when someone calls me 'buddy' but I don't think that's reason to say I'm some sort of radical who needs to be controlled and marginalized... does it?

ANT, you also mentioned you've never met a woman who thinks a MTF trans person is a woman. Well my wife thinks they are. So there's one.

Seriously, how does it effect you if someone identifies as a third gender? Why is this even important to you?



On another note, I think non-binary is bullshit. I can get on board with the hate on that. How do you identify as NOTHING? That's the most hipster bullshit I've ever heard.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

alasdair, you don't appear to be responding to anything I actually wrote. Instead you seem to be stereotyping me, assuming my thoughts, and painting me as some kind of uncaring monster.

so your basic position is "this is how it's always been so this is how it should stay"?

No, that's not my viewpoint. Your comment is similar to tathra's comment about communism in the 1% thread. He/she said something like "there has never been a successful communist/socialist society so there never will be". Except, there was no question mark and it was all in caps...

I don't have a problem with anybody having their own definition of anything. What I find problematic is a small percentage of the population forcing the rest of us to change to their definition.

...

I'm going to have to respond to other comments later. No time ATM. Busy busy busy today.

i had hoped, on this issue, that i might have received a more compassionate, nuanced response but no matter... i fear that trying to have a discussion on this (with you) is pointless as you've made your feelings on the subject pretty crystal clear here. maybe not.

more generally, i am comforted by just assuming that people who seek to force these strict definitions on others will be reincarnated as transgender individuals and they'll spend a miserable second lifetime being told by people like themselves that something they know to be true with every fiber of their being is just stupid and not real.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone. It's the other way around. Please don't enter into a discussion with such a pessimistic attitude towards me. I haven't said anything lacking compassion whatsoever.

 

[tathra]

How does it effect your life if someone doesn't identify as their birth 'gender' anyhow?

conservatives: everyone should have as much freedom as possible!
also conservatives: everyone must conform themselves to my worldview because people that are different from me make me extremely uncomfortable

ANT, you also mentioned you've never met a woman who thinks a MTF trans person is a woman.

no surprise that a reactionary only knows other reactionaries. feminism-appropriating reactionary transphobes (also known as TERFs) are some of the the worst people

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

Okay, this is already getting out of hand...

I'm not saying I've never met a woman who agrees that we should treat trans women with respect or I've never met a woman who is happy to call them a woman. I'm saying I've never met a woman who actually thinks a trans woman is the same thing as a woman. Because they're not the same. There's a difference between a trans woman and a woman.

How does it effect your life if someone doesn't identify as their birth 'gender' anyhow?

conservatives: everyone should have as much freedom as possible!
also conservatives: everyone must conform themselves to my worldview because people that are different from me make me extremely uncomfortable

I didn't say any of this. It doesn't affect my life. I don't care how people identify. If you want to identify as a sausage, that's totally fine with me. Seriously. People can do whatever they like... When did I ever say otherwise? When did I say anybody has to conform to my worldview? I'm saying the opposite: that the world shouldn't be forced to conform to anybody's world view (even if it is correct).

Individual belief systems are one thing. You can believe trans women (most of who have penises) are exactly the same as women if you like... But, I don't have to believe that.

It is my opinion (I'm entitled to an opinion, I think) that the world is going a bit overboard with the whole trans thing at the moment. You can translate that sentence however you like - and add whatever assumptions you want to it - but really the sentence I wrote is just the sentence I wrote.

I don't think we need to change the definition of gender. I don't think it solves anything. I also don't think we need to remove gender from birth certificates or create extra bathroom facilities for a very small percentage of people.

I know this is a heated topic but can we try and have a civil discussion, here?

Please stick to what I've actually said.

I haven't read all the responses. I'm flat out today. Some good questions have been raised. I will respond properly to stuff later on.

ANT, you also mentioned you've never met a woman who thinks a MTF trans person is a woman. Well my wife thinks they are. So there's one.

Your wife thinks a trans woman with a penis is exactly the same as a woman?

Gender does not equal sex. The fact that someone like Trump doesn't understand the basics of the English language is no surprise.

The English language is being rewritten. Gender and sex have referred to biological differences - in the medical profession and outside of it - for thousands of years. It is a very recent thing that they've attempted to change the definition of gender...

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

@TLB.

1) The flat earth analogy isn't very fitting. You said something is a fact until it cease to be a fact... We can prove the earth is round. But, there is basically no evidence whatsoever that the majority of people who identify as trans are - biologically - anything other than their birth gender. I'm not the sort of person to deny facts. I don't think this is situation is factual. At this point, until they prove the earth is flat, the discussion remains opinionated.

2) Why would I think homosexuals are "wrong"? Like I said, I'm openly bisexual... I never said being trans is wrong.

3) I agree that they're still working it out. I know a lot of trans people. I go to LGBT conferences (at Confest) once a year and discuss trans stuff with them. Weirdly they're less reactionary about all this than people who aren't trans... I've noticed over the past couple of years that there are now more non-binary people than there are trans men or trans women. I think this partly has to do with the fact that you can't become another gender. You go from a man to a trans woman, not from a man to a woman. Society doesn't see you as a woman, even if they pretend to so they don't hurt your feelings. Most straight men won't date a trans woman or openly admit to having sex with them. Even in anonymous opinion polls, very few men and women will say they're open to dating trans men/women... So, now a lot of trans people are choosing non-binary instead... But non-binary is splitting up all the time into different sub-divisions. I think Facebook has something like 50 genders to chose from now. Trying to understand what they are is very difficult.

During a LGBT / trans conference, I asked a group of trans people what I should do to avoid using the wrong pronouns. The answer was overwhelmingly consistent: I should never presume somebody's pronouns. I should always ask first or - failing that - use gender neutral pronouns. I said to them, "Realistically, I'm not going to do that." Because it's absurd and I've actually offended someone (a lesbian who I thought might have been a trans person) by asking her the question.

The pronoun thing is unreasonable. Changing the definition of gender is unnecessary. People should be free to do whatever they want and think whatever they want. I don't have to change the language that I use or start every conversation with a stranger by asking them how they identify. This is unreasonable... Trans people can do whatever they want, in my opinion, and so can I.