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How long for brain chemistry to be back to normal?

lman_15

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I've been off opiates for 15 months now and still have certain parts that don't feel 100% mentally. Physically I'm 100% or at least feel that way I work out, I'm not over sensitive at all, sleep great at night but mentally I still feel off at certain times more so than others. I struggle with anxiety and a bit of depression at times (not officially diagnosed by a psychiatrist but I believe what I'm experiencing are anxiety attacks and small bouts of depression). How long for this to all even out? Also, I find it hard to get enjoyment out of things or what I perceive as a "normal" amount of enjoyment out of things. If 10 is a baseline I feel like I linger around a 6-9 depending on the activity. Lastly, I feel over stimulated by my external environment (I get overwhelmed easily and feel like I have social anxiety) but I need a lot of stimulation to get me feeling good. For example: I have to work out and lift like crazy at the gym to get that "gym high." I have to have really intense sex for me to enjoy it otherwise I literarily get bored, can't cum and at times lose my hard on. Like I gotta go 110% to get what I perceive as "normal" enjoyment out of things. Not sure if this is making any sense, but an answer would be appreciated. Any related articles or research would be cool as well. Thanks!
 
Howdy L,

I have heard PAWs lasting a lot longer than a year.
Long long did you use, and what and how did you use?

I have seriously tried quitting opiates four times in the last six years and this last time I sought out a script for SNRIs after doing some research.
Two months before I quit warm-turcky (meaning with comfort meds), I started taking venlaxafine (Effexor). I can honestly say that it helped SO SO much with the depression/anxiety associated with PAWS. The social anxiety (the feeling of being overwhelmed in social situations for me) has disappeared completely and I am going to be going up in dose in may. Effexor is an SNRI like I said, Seretonin-Neropenephrine Reuptake Inhibitor. So besides serotonin, it also makes more neropnephrine available. Research suggests that neropenephrine plays a significant role in the reward seeking behavior, which we tend to mess up with opiate addictions. Also, there is a small study on pubmed showing significant efficacy in acute withdrawal also.

Let me know what you think!
 
Hey Iman.. Generally the brain chemistry gets back to normal and the paws are gone in less than two years. Mine was gone in under a year. After this time we are still left with the addiction and its underlying causes. So we must address these.

Social anxiety is the need for approval of others. It comes from our unconscious so even though you may feel that you dont want to or dont care what others think, it comes from your unconscious. I suffered from anxiety and especially social anxiety for years. I have been able to totally eliminate it after struggling with it for decades.

One of the biggest if not the very biggest root of addiction is a loss of or failure to develop or morals and values. By morals I just mean the way we need to act for us and by values I mean what is important to us. I am not talking about any religious or societal moral or values.

What we need to do is identify, accept, and adhere to YOUR morals. That is you need to identify how it is important for YOU to act for YOU. Not what society, your parents, your teachers, your friends say is the right way to act, but how YOU need to behave for YOU.

We also need to identify what is important to us. you need to identify what YOU value, again not what others or society tells you to value but what YOU value and then accept that as right for you.

See the roots of social anxiety is putting what others think about what we think. If we place a higher value on what others think then we need their approval to determine that what we are doing is correct and worthy. This is why in social situations it can feel like we are constantly being judged.. as we are judging ourselves by the response and approval or rejection of others. This is why it can seem like we move like a damn malfunctioning robot and have a really hard time speaking around other people. Because we are so caught up in what others think and their approval it just can lock us right up and make us absolutely miserable. Also with the talking we are so worried about what others will think about what we say that it can be really hard to say anything and we can feal that every little thing we say is being dissected and judged.

It can even be much worse in front of strangers or people we really respect. The reason its can be so tough in front of strangers is that our subconscious does not know yet if they approve of us, what we value, and how we behave. While we can feal a degree of relief when we are around friends who we know approve of us to a decent degree already. The reason it can get so bad around people we respect or really like (like a potential mate we are interested in) is because we really want these people to approve of us.

Also by putting the approval of others on what we value we can have more missry. When I look back at a few instances from my own struggle with this I can think of more than a few times I was so excited about some project or something i thought was so important, and then some one said OH thats stupid o0r why would you do that and the next thing you know I scrapped the whole thing in frustration and this can lead to a Bipolar type experience. Very excited about something and the frustrated and depressed when someone didn't approve. Also we have a tendency to use our efforts and life to follow what others tell us is the "correct" path to take. We also can refrain from doing things that are right for us because we dont think that others would think it was the right thing to do or may think it was lamn.

So we need to identiufy the corect was for US to act for US and accept this as the right way to behave. Then we need to behave this way. By identifying and behaving in the corect way for US then we will no longer need the aprovial of others to tell us that we are behaving correctly. When we belive in and behave in a way thats correct for us then we no longer care what others think of our behavior. We no longer feal judged all the time and we no longer feal awkward around others. If we behave the way we know is right for us than what others think no longer matters.

If we identify and belive in what we value the we no longer care what others think of what we value. We no longer need their approval of what we value so their opinions do hold power over us. We find we can take criticism for what it is and we can start to live a life thats right for us.


Believe in and follow your heart.. its the only thing that knows how you need to behave, where you need to go, and how you need to get there.


If you want to share what other situations you get overwhelmed in we may be able to shed some light on the roots of those as well. Addiction is a really complex thing but it is really similar when the symptoms are compared from addict to addict.

Hope this helps some.. it made all the difference for me and my social anxiety. So I think your brain chemistry is probably coming along good. I think you may now what to begin to change the way you think. This has had the biggest positive impact on my recovery of anything.

Life is how we perceive it. Or perceptions are based on our thoughts. We control our thoughts. So in essence we control how our life is. We dont control so much of what happens in life but we have total control of how we choose to perceive what happens.

Neurochemistry affects how we think.. but how we think also effects neurochemistry.


Our life is what our thoughts make it.
Marcus Aurelius
 
well OP you are going through Paws basically..i remember getting clean from methadone and i stayed clean from everything including caffeine for a year and a half and i STILL didnt feel normal, my moods were lower than normal, anxiety was high, motivation was in the dumps...thing is, i was exercising almost every day and like you, i have to work out hard just to feel 'ok' after a workout..that OK feeling only lasts a few hours unfortunately..ive noticed that a few hours in the sun helps things as well but again, only temporary..i also have a very difficult time just enjoying life..it takes a pretty extreme event in order to trigger a small level of enjoyment in me...i have no clue how to fix this area..ive done a ton of research on this topic and not a lot of effective methods of treatment have i come across..just coming here to say i basically feel or felt similar..
 
^^i agree....i have t have something amazing happen to get to a 7 tbh...my usual enjoyment level is around a 4 maybe 5..OP should be very lucky he can get to a 9..
 
I would say that you're finally experiencing the ups and downs of being a thinking thing. Life isn't always a positive place and I bet you didn't start using because of the large amount of happiness in your life.

I'm wrestling with depression and life as well. It's a daily struggle. You just need to find something that fulfills you.
 
thanks for all the feedback I really appreciate it, glad to know there are other people who are in similar situations
 
I’ve been abstinent from opiates, stimulants, benzodiazepines, and alcohol since January 2013.


Between age of 14 and 27, I had multiple sub-habits within an overarching pattern of substance misuse and dependence. In my late teens I had a period of heavy ecstasy use (hundreds of pills). In my early twenties I was dependent on benzodiazepines (about a year, 3-10 mg Xanax daily) and in the past decade I've had several lengths of opioid dependence, two terms of low-dose Suboxone maintenance. Most recently complete dependence on prescription and street speed.


Today I have a Rube Goldberg-like “recovery” that draws on participation in self-help groups, psychiatry, and Buddhism.


lman_15, you mention experiencing “anxiety and a bit of depression at times.” If you asked me about my mood anytime during the first half-year without substances, you would have always gotten an answer that described mild depression. I was (and to a large degree still am) mourning the loss of my beloved substances.


The treatment program I participated had a rather fundamentalist attitude but after about four months I was able to gain approval to see a psychiatrist. While I knew I could never again use controlled substances, I wanted to try an SSRI, as I had never stuck out the induction period with any of them. So I saw a psychiatrist and I learned how utterly disconnected I actually was from what was going on inside of me. I have never had an answer to the common question “How do you feel?” I could tell you I liked or disliked how I felt, but that was the extent to which I was aware of my feelings. This psychiatrist impressed upon me the usefulness of simply labeling and becoming practiced at identifying my feelings. The doctor would use questions that provoked anxiety and discomfort in me and it wasn’t until she actually said, you look anxious, that I realized, wow, this is what anxiety is. According to her diagnosis, the true issue was not depression but anxiety and I was RX’d Zoloft and Inderal.


The SSRI and beta-blocker did some things I appreciate, and other things that concern me. It made a big different to be free of many of the most bothersome subjective physiological effects of anxiety like racing heart and sweating; just this caused my social anxiety to be significantly reduced. Every so often my mood was elevated enough for me to really note it, but the most perceptible difference was how the Zoloft attenuated negative feelings; what some people might describe as “numbness”--I prefer to call “equanimity.” And in the very painful first year of sobriety it was actually really helpful to be desensitized to the world.


I prefer the concept of dysthymia, or persistent depressive disorder, to label what you’ve described. WHO describes it as “A chronic depression of mood, lasting at least several years, which is not sufficiently severe, or in which individual episodes are not sufficiently prolonged, to justify a diagnosis of severe, moderate, or mild recurrent depressive disorder.” I haven’t liked the blanket term PAWS.


I’ve found that I have to work for almost all my truly happy moments, i.e., they’re the result of deliberate effort that leads to accomplishing a goal or pushing myself in pursuit of some kind of willpower-related aim. If my mood is low I am unable to perform the kinds of effort I just described; those are the most frightening moments because they remind me of the truly incapacitating influence that depression has on me.
 
^Nice post.. Welcome to Bluelight:)

I’ve found that I have to work for almost all my truly happy moments, i.e., they’re the result of deliberate effort that leads to accomplishing a goal or pushing myself in pursuit of some kind of willpower-related aim. If my mood is low I am unable to perform the kinds of effort I just described; those are the most frightening moments because they remind me of the truly incapacitating influence that depression has on me.

I agree.. hapiness is an emotion and not a mood or state of mind. Given that its an emotion it will be fleeting and not something that can be maintained. Instead of being happy, I work at the goal of being at peace as I think this is a state that can be maintained.
 
well its also my general opinion that most addicts start out with a rather flat or anxious 'baseline' hence the need to take drugs in the first place..u will hear too many addicts say the first time they took their drug of choice, they felt 'normal' for the first time in their life..ive also heard several researchers comment that many addicts have a broken 'hedonic center' or malfunctioning reward center, hence the need to take drugs to get a large boost of dopamine or whatever other chemical..this makes sense to me but also, drug taking lowers an addicts already low baseline even more so when they get off drugs, they really feel like shit, hence the chronic dysphoria and anxiety they experience..

i notice on most days i really have to get in a good workout just to feel 'ok' and functioning..it takes a hard workout too, not just walk around the block..im wondering if i just havent replaced one addiction with another?

another question i have is if us addicts baseline was warped to begin with, how will or would we ever know what it is to feel 'normal'? what does a normal person feel like on a daily basis?
 
I have come to the conclusion that we as addicts have personalities that have been driven to success in life by feeling unpleasant for the most part. We may be restless, but this makes us unable to feal comfortable so we are always doing something. We may never be happy, but we always have and are working on some plan that will make us happy. We may never be satisfied, but that drives us to accomplish amazing things. We may equate a persons worth in wealth and material goods, but we need to find "success" to get those goods. We may never feal we are good enough but doesn't the drive us to accomplish amazing things in order to feal worthy. I think with us missouri has been the motivation. We just get into real trouble when we use substances to quell the strife that drives us.
 
There is no such thing as a normal baseline. Even people who have never touched a drug in their life will have wildly varying "baselines", we just all learn to deal with our own state as time goes on because we assume, "Well, everybody else feels like this too, and they're not complaining."

I have SIGNIFICANT PAWS still from a 320mg OC per day habit that ended in 2009. I've heard it can take over 7 years for the endorphin systems in the brain to fully reset.

PROTIP: Get on medication. Meds tend to work really well for organic problems like ours.
 
^what significant Paws do you still have?like ive said, my worst symptoms are the dysphoria and anxiety and it lasts a very long time in my experience..i have yet to find a medication that helps these areas..ive tried welbutrin, paxil and a few other ssris...paxil just made me want to sleep all day..
 
^ Depression, generalized anxiety, nausea, irritability, reduced pain threshold, last way shorter in bed. None of these things were problems before opioids.

EDIT: I'm on escitalopram oxcarbazepine amphetamine and temazepam; helps me loads, before I got on them I was a DISASTER.
 
jesus christ, so your doctor knows of your addiction and still prescribed you amphetamine?thats a nice laundry list of drugs to be on..are you fully functioning now?

i have the samw Paws symptoms you have, also major anhedonia..
 
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