How long does it take at MOST for serotonin to regenerate?

[Folley]

They dose so heavily so they can make obvious the changes that are occurring, with a single smaller dose it is impossible to track the changes that occur.


The pictures provided by E Tarded and I are not trying to imply that one dose of MDMA, or even repeated dosing, will lead to receptor loss of that intensity... it is only to show that receptor loss can and does happen. I think you are getting the idea that we are saying a dose of MDMA will deplete your serotonin and destroy the receptors.. that just doesn't happen. But at the same time, MDMA use does lower receptor density and if we can better understand how those changes occur, we can do more to fix it.

That's why these studies use such massive overdoses of MDMA, they don't want to see what happens with one time use, we already know that isn't going to cause any problems. But there are large numbers of heavy users who have developed some SERIOUS problems from MDMA abuse and the more we understand about the damage that has occurred to them the more we can do to help

 

[Clocktower]

That's fair enough, typical MDMA use is certainly capable of causing damage and recovery times are probably to be measured in months. I'll admit I gave kind of a knee-jerk reaction, what I should have said is that those images are more valuable in context.

 

[dpd_mnk92]

There are at least a few perfectly good studies on MDMA out there, I'll see if I can find an example.

Please do. I would be very interested in reading any studies about MDMA related damage which someone more knowledgable than myself deems to be methodologically solid and free of bias.

 

[electrodevo]

Dancesafe relies on one of the much-ridiculed Ricaurte articles, making them a questionable resource imo.

No, if you read the text, they mention the Ricaurte article, and then mention that it was discredited and should be ignored. Unfortunately since they have about 25 references for that text, I am not sure where they pulled the graph of serotonin sensitivity from.

The monkey brain picture is relevant but unfortunately Dancesafe fails to mention how. That is what a brain looks like after repeated massive doses of MDMA on the order of 5-10mg/kg per injection (at least 5 times a typical recreational dose by weight), every 6-12 hours, for four days straight (source inference for the method, though there is much questionable in this source's trust in Ricuarte). Yay, they've proven that MDMA is quite neurotoxic at superhuman doses with super-duper frequency. That doesn't mean much for moderate users IMHO, which is partially why there is considerable argument on that subject, scientists are having trouble testing for more typical recreational use. This also becomes a political problem, as politicians eagerly use these nasty results to promote a prohibition agenda. It would be like using water poisoning to outlaw water.

But I think it's easy to meta PubMed (google: "MDMA neurotoxicity pubmed") and see that temporary loss of brain function does occur, this is noted in countless sources. I think it's *also* easy to observe on your own the people popping 4 pills a week become a bit "E-Tarded", for a lack of a better term.

However, the evidence of permanent serotonin changes is frankly not that good. There are some issues in the literature for even moderate usage but IMHO they are too mixed to be a concern until further evidence comes up. Plenty of papers spot no real difference between former MDMA users and non-users.

 

[Clocktower]

Here, at least, is the abstract of a study that was brought up on the forum recently. It's a field study, not a lab study, and unfortunately the results really don't say much that's new to bluelighters. (Though it may be instructive for non-users!)

I think the true purpose of this study was to provide a good example of how future studies should be carried out, and to highlight flaws in past ones. The researchers were very careful about which people they used as subjects, so that they could be sure they were only testing people who used pure MDMA and nothing else. Basically, they found that such people showed negligible loss of cognitive function (which may or may not have anything to do with serotonin, IMHO.)

I should note that there's already a thread about it.

Edit: In the interest of staying on topic, here is an article having to do with serotonin regeneration and brain imaging which is probably better than Ricaurte's.

The quick version: The researchers took brain scans of 24 drug users ( MDMA and/or psychedelics, minimum 12 lifetime exposures) and 21 non-users. Based on their results, the researchers believe that in sub-cortical regions of the brain (depicted in white here), levels of "Nondisplacable Serotonin Transporter Binding Potential" can return to normal levels after MDMA use, AT LEAST 91 days later, ON AVERAGE 212 days later, and AT MOST never. Repair seems to take longer in the cerebral cortex, (1-3 years, by the looks of it) if it occurs at all.

The article's pretty dense and I'll admit I only skimmed it, so if you're curious it's definitely worth reading it yourself.

 

[dasior]

Quick reply. New to this forum, apologies if this reply is inappropriate due to low science content. No matter how many studies were done on MDMA and serotonin depletion, there will probably not be an accurate universal answer to your question in our lifetimes. What I have noticed is that when people talk about serotonin they automatically jump to talking about MDMA. But from my experience and common sense, there are lots of factors for how high your serotonin levels are. If you want to have a great time on ANY euphoriant drug, you need to wait for serotonin to regenerate to YOUR 'normal' level. However if you want to have a once in a lifetime experience, you need to take action to INCREASE your 'normal' serotonin level. If you lived a healthy lifestyle from birth till whenever you wanted to have that experience with a drug, it would almost guarantee you an unforgettable and possibly life-changing experience the first time you take that drug if you make sure you take a large enough dose. However this will probably make one take the drug and possibly other drugs in the future for obvious reasons. So then we can argue you should start EVERY drug with a low dose and take a long enough break for serotonin to replenish back to as close as possible to one's pre-drug use. Everyone is different. Serotonin is affected by so many things that there is no point spending your precious time on this planet to try and find out how to replenish your serotonin levels. My advice is you have to find your own recovery time. There are however things you can do to to try and replenish your serotonin level back to 'normal' and possibly higher than your 'normal'. The main rule is avoid the fast-track to happiness and look for long-term solutions instead. A good example of this is taking a 5HTP precursor. Avoid this as it is not a long-term solution for raising one's serotonin level. Exercise daily. Do not listen to what people say about which exercise is best for this or that. Do the exercise which makes YOU happy and feel good in the long run. Follow a healthy and balanced diet. Avoid concentrating on one certain food type. Eat a bit of everything on a daily basis. Avoid stimulants and any other drugs which are addictive as they have the potential to kill the balanced lifestyle. Sleep as much as you can. NOT 8 hours a night. Everyone needs a different length of uninterrupted sleep to fully repair. For me, sleep is one of the most important factors on how good I feel (probably something to do with serotonin!). Remember there are also other hormones which make you feel good and so are probably linked with serotonin. One of them is oxytocin, the love hormone. Try and spend some time with the people who are close to you. Don't be afraid to hug, touch, kiss. Smile. Feeling good can cause smile and vice-versa. My personal technique on replenishing serotonin is exercise daily, eat healthy and stay away from drugs until I feel like I did when I was a kid, before my drug use. Avoid abusing your body. This applies to sex/masturbation too. Too much of anything can hurt you in the long run. Achieve. Setting targets and achieving them is one of the best ways to feel good and so will increase serotonin levels. Peace.

 

[testocyp]

I agree with above. Thats my recipe too....never use 5htp , if u get bad comedowns? i suppose u use it to often. ive had a bad comedown once, that period i overused ecstasy and its probably fucked up my kick lifetime i still use it but it tend not to be as good as before. anyway my recipe to recover is: workout, love, eat healthy n sleep well...just as above, it does work really.

 

[severely etarded]

my recipe to recover is: workout, love, eat healthy n sleep well..

don't underestimate a healthy dose of sunlight also... vitamin d3 and serotonin. Beach water is great during the summer as long as it's not somewhere polluted like the north TX gulf coast ( Galveston, port Arthur etc). Corpus christi is ok, Florida is great from Clearwater to miami, Mexico and the carribean are beautiful, certain parts of California. The beaches from Galveston to new Orleans are fucking disgusting.

 

[testocyp]

don't underestimate a healthy dose of sunlight also... vitamin d3 and serotonin. Beach water is great during the summer as long as it's not somewhere polluted like the north TX gulf coast ( Galveston, port Arthur etc). Corpus christi is ok, Florida is great from Clearwater to miami, Mexico and the carribean are beautiful, certain parts of California. The beaches from Galveston to new Orleans are fucking disgusting.

that is true, sunlight is importnant and do help alot...sunlight i do get on me on the summertime part of northern europe. 7months of cold and darkness lol...i do travel winter n summertime once each so thats a bit of sunlight.. other than that its melanotan+solarium

 

[reverse928]

Part of waiting over a month to roll isn't just serotonin regeneration, it's to allow your 5HT receptors to recover from working so hard all at once. Forcing them to work so often eventually kills off those receptors and can take a long time to allow them to regenerate.

But to answer your basic question, I think that diet has a lot to do with how quickly your body can regenerate serotonin. If you are giving your body the nutrients to allow those conversions, it won't take as long as if you ate Taco Bell and Doritos every day.

quick question, lsd uses seratonin too right? i have some info from a site i'm just trying to get as much info on this and psychedelics and drugs as possible. lsd can tire your receptors too right? & anyone got links to info around here?

 

[opiatekrzy]

For me, it feels like after 14 days of all discontinued stimulant use, i feel normal again, anytime before the 14 days, I'm either craving like a motherfucker, or just depressed where I sleep all day, after two weeks I feel nornal again. I consider MDMA a stimulant just like I consider meth , adderall, he'll even cocaine all stimulants.