Stimulants How Frequently can Meth be Used Before it Becomes Unsafe?

[sola]

The Salutation: Hello BL community!

The Disclaimer: I did UTFSE but couldn't really find what I was looking for... There were a few threads, but they didn't contain actual quantifiable suggestions... Also, BEFORE you post "there IS no safe amount" please don't post that... It will not add anything to the discussion, and while I appreciate your thoughts, I'm looking for an actual suggestion with a number value associated with it. This thread will not be helpful to any meth users if everyone just uses the mantra, "there is no safe amount of meth."

The Situation: I was recently approached for advice by a friend who was diagnosed with ADD as a child. She used to take Adderall when she was younger, but she's been off it for numerous years. She recently started using methamphetamine, because she started school and she finds it makes her wildly productive. Of course, the line between her "productive" use is starting to blend with her "recreational" use. She doesn't really want to admit it, but it seems like she uses school and work to justify her meth use...

The Question: She recently came to me and asked me what the dosage/frequency is that will be "not damaging" in any permanent way. She knows it's neurotoxic, but is wondering how big a dose can be, and more importantly, how frequently she can use it. I cautioned her about all the dangers of meth use, but of course, she still wants to know "how much" and "how often." If I just tell her "don't do it" she won't listen and I'll just do a disservice to her, because she really DOES want to mitigate damage, and I want to help her use responsibly. So, I told her I'd get back to her with an answer. Now, I know there's no cut-and-dried amount, but I'm looking for anyone who has any actual medical info, or even just personal experience or conjecture. I'm more concerned about frequency, because I don't think she uses very much in one sitting. I know people take Desoxyn on a daily basis, but dosage is usually quite small... So, when it comes to smallish-mediumish doses, how often is "too often"?

The Summary: How frequently can small-medium doses of meth be used "safely" (please don't say "none" because I know this, but we're talking "reasonably safely" here). Twice a week? Once a week? Once every two weeks? Once a month? I know neurotoxicity is cumulative, but I believe it has only been shown in largish doses, and my friend uses <100mg when she doses.

The Valediction: Thank you!

 

[QUARE]

Im sorry if this awnser wont help you, Im not really a profession in term of Methamphetamine but what I know is that even if there was a "safe" amount to use, the risk a addiction is very high and you probably gonna use is more then you first thought over time, also tolerance play a role in that. The fact is that people on Desoxyn have a limited quantity which they can deiced to use as prescribe or to abuse it and run out before the month end. With street meth its another story.

Ill let other people tell you about the dosage and safety of it.

 

[versd]

Have you tried advising her to see if she can go back on adderall? Or something less neurotoxic like methylphenidate?

I don't know the exact dosage which is safe, but I think we all know that she will reach a dosage which will begin to have permanent damaging neurological effects.

Now if she needs to use the methamphetamine, it needs to be controlled - likely by someone other than herself, and also the risk needs to be weighed against the benefits. for example - is being very productive on meth over being only a little productive on something safer worth the increased neurotoxicity? That question of compromise is probably only able to be answered by a health professional in discussion with what she considers quality of life.

 

[neversickanymore]

If you want to try and decrease the damage caused by meth then I would take it orally.

 

[tweex]

I'm going to say probably 30mg daily. Typical prescriptions are in the 20-30mg daily range for ADHD. And oral ROA only, obviously.

You should refer to this thread for mitigating the negative effects: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...xicity-and-Tolerance-Reduction-Prevention-III

I'm an occasional user in the 20-30mg range for productivity, perhaps a couple days a month. I always stack with PQQ and Vitamin C at minimum. Really she should be looking at nootropics for daily productivity drugs. I only bust out the meth when my workload has gone well past insane.

 

[mrflowers00]

meth will destroy a person in weeks sometimes days but i've seen people go for years and be somewhat ok

 

[DexterMeth]

^that's a fairly open-ended yet honest answer.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

^ I have seen plenty people go years and still be fine.

 

[rhymetoker]

When it comes to meth, it's hard to talk in terms of pure numbers. Half a gram a day could be fine for one person, but deadly for another. Also quality tends to vary from one batch to the next, so it's hard to know exactly how much is being ingested. Use the smallest amount possible that will provide the desired effects. Tolerance is inevitable. In my experience the longer you use, the more you'll use. This is especially true in your friend's case. You say she uses work and school to justify her meth use. This is typical among "functional" addicts. She will find plenty of ways to rationalize her use once she drops out of school and loses her job. But I digress..

Keep it to 100mg per day, less if possible (.1 grams). Drink water all day. Eat three meals per day. Healthy meals with lots of fruit, veggies, and protein. Sleep every night. No all-nighters. Take your last dose before 3:00pm. Do not use other drugs to take the edge off or to help with sleep (such as alcohol and benzos).

To answer your questions directly, using meth once a month would be fine for most people. Even once every two weeks. But once or twice a week? Technically that would be manageable, but I can guarantee you that weekly use will eventually lead to daily use. I promise you that.

 

[sekio]

It's impossible to tell with certainty. There has been discussion on this in ADD, and the consensus is pretty much that depending on dose and lifestyle, most people can handle low doses of amphetamine on a daily or weekly basis as long as they have self-control and take care of their body and mind.

For sure it depends greatly on lifestyle. Good cardiovascular health and a consistently balanced, energy-rich diet with antioxidants and vitamins go a long way. Sleep is a must as well.

With a good diet, etc, and low doses, less than about 20-30mg d-methamphetamine - ideally, 10mg or less per day, I would expect minimal damage. More than about 50mg per day and you are probably pushing it. this is why self control is so important: if you are a rush chaser when it comes to meth and you smoke a half gram a day, you are going to be much worse off then the guy who takes 15 milligrams twice a day for ADD.

Of course, if this is street methamphetamine & not Desoxyn, you should make an effort to test the purity of your material, otherwise the effects of dosing may not be consistent between batches. Even just checking melting points should be enough.

 

[littlepenguin]

I understand your desire to find exact numbers and definitive answers to the questions you're asking, but unfortunately that's impossible to answer. A doctor would say the same thing.

Let's consider the variables involved in each question:

- ROA - (route of administration) aka how the drug is used - this variable is somewhat open to opinion. One can use methamphetamine orally, vaporized (smoked), rectally, intravenously, or by insufflation. It's a matter of personal preference, the way you were initially introduced/shown the drug and how to use it, and ability. Most fatalities from overdose have been recorded as by use of IV.

- Tolerance - it is absolutely a fact that amphetamines can and will develop a tolerance (needing more of the drug to achieve desired results.) It is up to the individual whether or not they choose to make an effort to keep their tolerance at bay. The minimal lethal amphetamine dose varies with age & animal species. In human, death has been reported with as little as 1.5 mg/kg methamphetamine, whereas survival occurred after an ingestion of 28 mg/kg methamphetamine [1].

- Quality - referring to the 'purity' of the methamphetamine used. On average, the percentage in purity of drug seizures from the DEA (for methamphetamine) is 88%. 80% of the meth in the US comes from Mexico. Depending on where you live, how many hands it's passed through until the user receives it, all results in differences in purity of product.

- Individual - Every single one of us is different, even if it is slightly or significantly, everyone has the potential to react in a different way to any substance which enters our bodies. Weight, race, DNA, what you ate for breakfast that day, the temperature outside, the company you choose to surround yourself with, the area you live in...etc etc etc. Furthermore, some suffer from specific mental or physical health conditions that can dramatically effect the way in which we are tolerant [or intolerant] to a drug.

- Poly-Drug Use - Interactions can occur with different drugs, and can also heighten the 'depth' of addiction, ie: 'speedballs' (a stimulant like cocaine or methamphetamine used intravenously with an opiate like heroin.) Other drugs could also lessen the desired effects of MA (methamphetamine) therefore resulting in higher amounts needed to use to achieve desired effect, and possibly resulting in a heightened risk for complications.

There are probably hundreds more variables than listed above. Those are just the main groups that I could think of. My point being that seeing these variables, your friend should be able to understand why it is impossible to give her the scientific math equation she seems to desire.
Unfortunately, it's not (# of mg/day used) x (number of days used) = specific negative result.

When you take a group of users of just about any drug, you're going to find a little bit of everything.
If you were to make a line graph of "average complications of drug use:"

-with the far left being the worst: fatalities, cardiac arrest, stroke, kidney failure...etc

-moving toward the center, but not in the center would be some negative contraindications, but not (yet, but could be) life-threatening: psychosis, heart arrythmia, mild to severe hypertension, cardiovascular disease, anorexia, malnutrition...etc

-in the center would be the side effects most likely to occur, and are likely not severe in nature (but could be) but noticeable or possibly bothersome: sleep disturbances, dehydration, restlessness, weight loss, teeth grinding, tachycardia (rapid heart beat, or higher than normal), hypertension (high blood pressure), increased motor function, headache, agitation, etc etc etc.

-moving over to the right side would be people who experience few(er) negative symptoms from use of MA.

-far right: very very little to no negative side effects from use of MA.

This graph would basically look like this: ^
where most people are concentrated in the middle, and dropping off when moving left or right of center, and the far left and right being least concentrated or less people with the outcomes that are least likely to occur.

_________________________________


One of the main reasons that websites like bluelight exist are because of the lack of definitive answers to the questions you are asking. Not only that, the idea of 'harm reduction' is an excellent one because it recognizes the fact that no matter how many times you tell somebody not to do something, or how risky the potential side effects can be, whether or not its legal or illegal, drugs exist and people are going to choose to use them. With this approach, good information can be provided as to how to use one's drug of choice, but using it in a way that can possibly prevent or lessen the negative effects. Specifically in a forum setting like this one, you can find (mostly) opinions and experiences of individuals who have already "been there, done that" or are currently "doing it." Some experiences may be common, and some less common, but there is usually at least a few people who can relate to whatever specific experience is being discussed or questioned.

I could write another full page on my own personal experience with MA and my opinions about it, but I think that you'll find plenty here on BL. Take each with a grain of salt, and educate yourself as much as possible so you can make better decisions and use preventative measures to preserve your personal health.

Listed under the sources/references are some good scientific websites with case studies and other interesting factual information relating to methamphetamine.

I wish you luck and learning and the ability to minimize harm and use as safely as possible.


sources/references

1. HSDB - Hazardous Substances Databank - Methamphetamine

2. The Need For Speed: an update on methamphetamine

3. Bottoms Up: Methamphetamine Toxicity from an Unusual Route **I like this one specifically because rectal admin is my choice of ROA

4. "Built For Speed?" an interesting magazine article from the point of view of an individual.

5. International Programme on Chemical Safety: Methamphetamine

 

[Bob P]

This seems like a hard question to answer because of individual variation. I would say it is relative. I am unaware of any science on this. 100 mg seems like a very high dose & would indicate a tollerance (unless taken a little at a time). Maybe get a blood test from a trusted doctor & see how her kidneys are functioning. This should give a good indication/feedback.

 

[dopemaster]

Probably depends on the user. If I was to use meth I am pretty sure no one would be safe.

That being said you know the quality can vary. I mean the shake and bake soda bottle method probably doesn't produce the cleanest substance.

When you use potent hard drugs with no quality control, your taking your life in your own hands. That being said I am not one to judge as I have done some really stupid shit. Oh and I can completely justify drug abuse to myself and most my family and friends if I get manipulative enough.

 

[sola]

Thank you all very much for your answers! These were all incredibly helpful, and I now have a pretty good idea of what to tell my friend. A special thanks to littlepenguin for his/her really in-depth post!

Thanks everyone!