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How does this even happen (Why do people bother using drugs without scales?)

infantannihilator

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reading a trip report

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=33792 said:
I received one gram of 2C-I. Although I do not have a scale I thought I had done an excellent job of breaking down the quantity I received into 4 equal parts and then subdividing that amount so that I had created a dose of 10mg. Well I was off a bit. I was off by a factor of 10.

..

T+ 1:20.…Something is wrong, Did I miscalculate the dose??????? Oh shit I did. I took 100mg not 10. Shit it could have been 150!! Took 10 mg Valium


How is this even possible? Even still dividing 1g into 4 equal parts equals a 1:4 ratio which you cant even split into 100mg doses.. im guessing he thought 1g was 100mg? splitting that into 4 would give 25mg, and then I guess he split taht into 5 and then added two together?

Absolute craziness.
 
The issue of being an imbecile was first apparent to me when they tried to eyeball out a potent psychedelic fully active at under 20mg.
 
well i've eyeballed 2c-p,2c-i,2c-e,2c-t-2 many times with no issue. The worst thing that ever happened is i took too much and got super fucking high. With the 2c-x class it's not a big deal if you take 5-10x the normal dose (so long as you aren't taking something else or mixing a 2c-t-x with MDMA or something). DO NOT EYEBALL YOUR DOSES; i have a scale now and would never eyeball a potent psych these days

how can someone be that stupid to take 100mg of 2c-i without knowing it? well i don't know. People eyeball coke lines of 100mg all the time without issue. Anyone with any experience with powdered drugs should know roughly what 100mg looks like (I know powders will vary in size/looks), especially compared to 20-25mg.

my guess it was their first time using 2c-i. I always use a scale now but when i was a stupid teenager i'd just eyeball everything, thankfully most chems back then were active at 20-40mg. I'd just start out small and work my way up to a dose i felt was sufficient. If you notice you just ate 1/10th of your powder and thought it was only 20mg, then you are probably retarded. I'd think most people could tell the difference between 1/10th and 1/50th (of anything), but some people are a bit impulsive so it's bound to happen to someone.
 
Here is how a fuckup can happen.

August/2006 - just discovered Salvia is real and legal. Try it. Okay'ish, but ex fiancee and I order 10x and 20X extracts. They arrive. I try ~25 mg of 10x. Ask ex to try it. Does and then proceeds to load me a bowl that wasn't 1/25g (40 mg), but 1/4 g (as she thought I wanted). No damage other than an uncomfortably intense experience. Since then, if 'I take it, I weigh it'. And yes, I record the weights of what I dose out and compare them to the stated shipping weight of a compound (if possible).

Tom
 
i am one of the ones who does not own scales but i dnt mess around with the likes of 2c just stims and been doing it that long that i can roughly gage a dose without worry yes i know one substance can look like 100mg yet be totally different in size to one that does
 
The issue of being an imbecile was first apparent to me when they tried to eyeball out a potent psychedelic fully active at under 20mg.
I was able to eyeball 2c-i quite well. I'd never do it again and I was quite young at the time, but splitting it into piles never caused an issue. Then I learned of liquid dilution and was safer.

Now that I have the mind to me safer with these things, I also have the mind to avoid that crap in general.
 
I remember when drugs that came in powders could be snorted without a mg scale.

They're illegal and safer. Go figure.
 
2c-d, 2c-e and 2c-i have been studied as well as 2c-t-2. No long term studies but given the anecdotal evidence we've gathered over the last 15 years or so, i'd say they are pretty damn safe. Compared to coke, well pure cocaine is pretty safe but it does have risks, as do psychedelics, apples to oranges IMO.

I used to eyeball stims no problem too, even EPH, where 10mg would get me flying back then, just start small and up the dose according to your needs. Don't do this with potent psychs though or potent cannabinoids/stims like MDPV or APVP or whatever else is going around these days. Actually in general, always use a scale, there's no reason not to, they are cheap enough and if you can't get an accurate one you can liquid dose by using a higher amount and dissolving it safely, but since people will eyeball anyway, only do it with chems you have experience with.

HR TIP: When you buy from a vendor always make sure to weigh out what they give you. Often vendors will give you a bit extra, so if you don't take that into account by weighing it yourself with an NBOME you could be getting a much higher dose than expected. Don't trust the vendor to weigh it properly!
 
This is gonna sound dumb but I almost never use a scale.
I mean except for mushrooms, but DMT I have always eyeballed out. Same with MDMA. Personally I don't have any negative experiences doing this. But with RCs dose is crucial.
I only get RC's in blotter form from my trusted friend. This way I know the dose and don't have to worry about overdosing if I'm over by a mg or two. Which can mean life or death. (Only used DOx compounds, and NBOMe compounds)
 
Why do people bother dosing without scales?
It's widely known that milligram scales are available for as little as $40 USD (they're not terribly accurate but they're astonishingly better than nothing). Therefore, the reason scales aren't purchased is because these people don't think helping ensure the safety of themselves and their friends is worth even half as much as what is typically spent on a single order of a compound to get them high (assuming they're not scammed). In other words, it's because of gross irresponsibility in concert with childish priorities in life. They also clearly don't care about others who use these drugs, since any crisis that ensues from an easy to prevent eyeballing error could supply a reason to make compound X illegal. Even if they're using drugs where the worst that's likely to happen immediately is that they get themselves or their unsuspecting friends way too high and/or violently ill, such a situation coupled with the wrong circumstances can lead to all sorts of awful things.

Things like: "I thought I'd be down hours ago but you obviously gave me way too much. I've got to be somewhere, so like it or not I'm hopping on the highway. ... Whoops, I killed a family and paralyzed myself because I couldn't see the road. Thanks buddy."

Or: "You gave me way too much and I entered a psychotic state. We thought I could handle an overdose because I said I was hard but we were really just typical arrogant kids and now I've been arrested for masturbating in front of a school bus."

They think these terrible things are unlikely, and on any one day they are, but what so many don't realize is only one terrible thing needs to happen on one day out of the ~30,000 days of their entire life to ruin the rest of it. $40 can take away a massive source of risk for an RC user. Not using a scale is comparable to not wearing a seat belt in terms of pointless risk taking, only using a scale also protects others and doesn't even cause annoying chaffing.
 
It's not? Loll

The only safe 2c is b, and that has no real research done on it either.

Oh Christ, here we go again...

Look, the vast majority of people only trot out the 'but long term effects!' argument if they're misinformed or if they're biased against an RC and want to red herring around in an effort to either scare people away from trying it or look superior to the people who do use it. I'm sure there are a few people on Bluelight that have the requisite knowledge about biochemistry to be well-informed enough to legitimately worry, or not, about long-term effects. But those people aren't the ones that make laughable, unsupported claims on a subject they don't understand, without even so much as an attempt at supporting their bold declarations. It's far too easy to read ulterior motives into posts like this one, so how about we actually objectively look for a moment at the subject of 'long-term effects' and analyze the likelihood of such risks existing in actual real life?

It's very simple really. If a compound – or one of the many metabolites of a compound – does damage to the body, then the damage has to be done while the drug is in a person's system. These research chemical psychedelics don't stick around in the body very long at all. The whole 'acid sneaks into your spine and then hides out there for years!' type of story is false, and this applies to psychedelic research chemicals as well. So if a compound has a half life of 12 hours, and I'm just throwing that out there as an example, and a drug is considered to be fully-excreted after six half lives, then you've got a period of three days.

So if the thing is going to do damage, it has three days to do that damage. The hypothetical damage is what is referred to as 'acute', meaning sudden. Considering just how little of the compound will be left even after three half lives, I would posit that the drug actually has more like a day and a half to do damage. I would also posit that the most damage is likely to be done when the drug is at its highest plasma concentration (amount in the blood), so the majority of the damage would be done very soon after administration.

Since the damage is acute, the effects of that damage will become apparent as soon as the damage is inflicted. It's not like you take a dose of a drug and then slowly start to deteriorate over the next few weeks/months/years. So the damage would be apparent pretty much immediately. It will be noticeable as a result, since the transition between normal function and reduced function due to damage happens over a short period of time, and thus isn't likely to be mistaken for natural variation.

So why haven't we heard about any cases of damage done to internal organs, perhaps the liver, or perhaps the brain, that has happened in people using a certain compound? While these compounds are relatively uncommon, they are widely-enough available that multiple cases of damage should pop up, and the longer since the discovery and subsequent appearance on the market of a compound the more cases should occur. We don't in fact see these cases.

What about effects that take time to set in? Well, I don't know of any plausible mechanisms for *continued* degradation of some system in the body or other that can occur without chronic exposure to a compound. For example, you might work in a factory with a chemical that is safe if you're exposed a few times doing only a tiny amount of harm, but over time compounds that harm, eventually doing noticeable, significant damage.

Since we are not daily exposed to psychedelic research chemicals, I don't see a mechanism for chronic exposure. And as I mentioned, for a compound to set a process of functional decline into motion as a result of a single dose or a handful of doses, it would have to set in motion some sort of cascade of harm, some sort of disruption to the natural feedback and feedforward loops in the human animal. Not only is this implausible, it would still result in noticeable cases of reduced function, and we don't see those cases.

The chemistry of PEAs and tryptamines is pretty well known. The biochemistry, less so. But nonetheless these compounds are not structurally related to any toxins or poisons that we know of. There are exceptions, like PMA for example, but I would suggest that PMA and para-chloroamphetamine are actually examples in favor of my position that the unknown nature of supposed 'long term effects' is a red herring. Those two compounds are excellent examples of compounds that do in fact do damage to the human body. And that damage is acute, and takes place while the drugs are in the system, instead of somehow setting in motion a slow decline in function.

And guess what? We are fully aware of the toxic properties of PMA and 4-chloroamphetamine. In both of these cases the dangerous nature of the drugs rapidly became apparent and that information is widely disseminated today. So I suggest that if there were any harmful effects caused by psychedelic RCs, whether that takes the form of the logically-sound acute damage scenario or the implausible slow-decline mechanism implicit in the phrase 'long term effects', we would know about those effects.

Another excellent example in favor of my argument is the NBOMe series. These chemicals definitely possess the potential to damage a person irreparably. But they've only been out on the market for a few years, and already their potential dangers have been revealed and expounded upon. And the initial cases of negative effects did indeed pop up almost immediately upon the occasion of their initial wide dispersion. So once again, we have chemicals that *do* pose some danger. In this regard the NBOMes occupy a sort of halfway-position between out and out toxins like PMA and PCA and benign drugs like the traditional PEAs. And again, the cases of damage done began to pop up pretty much as soon as human bioassays began on a wide scale.

Thus I conclude that the 'but we don't know the long term effects' argument so often brought up to back up a person's personal convictions that compound X or Y is evil, nasty shit is indeed a red herring. Historical fact shows that compounds that do immediate, acute, noticeable / significant harm are quickly identified as such. On the other side of the equation, nobody who drags this dead horse out ever seems to be able to posit a mechanism by which a compound would provoke a slow, gradual decline in the function of one or more of a human body's subsystems.

So if acute harm is quickly recognized as such judging by the history of compounds like PMA or the NBOMe series, and if we do not see such cases of harm from psychedelic research chemicals, and there isn't a plausible mechanism for a method of initiating a non-acute slow decline, then the remaining position that is logically tenable is that concerns over long-term effects are at best mistaken or overblown, and at worst are deliberate falsehoods used to bolster one's biases against a certain compound or class of compounds when debating its relative merits.
 
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I'm not necessarily ragging on the guy for not having a scale. Even splitting up the powder so long as you know you have a specific amount, which I know everyone here agrees is a dumb thing to do, should land you fairly damn close to the dose you intend upon. The real issue I see is that, even if you end up at a proper dose, how are you going to be able to go up or down 2mg~ or so for the next time? Youre not going to get that precision.. Itd be like drinking 10 shots of alcohol your first time, and then the next few times not being able to discern between 7 shots or 13 shots.

If you have experience with powders then yes you should be able to get damn close. However I've known many a cokehead who practically inhales rocks because they can't fucking take the time to chop their shit properly - if you meticulously chop the powder and have a good method of laying it out evenly then you can get damn close imo, 1-2mg close? maybe not, but "close." The idea that coke is safer lies in the fact that the doses are both larger and more linear in effect. a 20mg extra coke line will just zonk you out further, a 20mg extra line of 2c-x could ruin your day.

Its just how do you make a 10 fold or higher fuck up? how the fuck is that even possible. Thats what I dont understand. In the report the guy claims to have worked in the medical profession, blablabla.. I'd think youd be able to stop for a second and say "hmm this looks more like 1/8 to 1/10 of the total powder.. nowhere near 1/100th"
 
The issue with visually splitting a known quantity of powder into equal proportions is that it can not be done with precision. If you divide 1000 mg of powder into four visibly equal piles, one pile might have 250 mg, but there really is no assurance that the others might have +/- 20-50 mg, or an even larger margin of error. This means that one portion of doses will be heavy, while the other will be light. If you use the light doses under the assumption that all are equal, you might be inclined to increase the amount of the heavy doses when the time comes, resulting in a significant increase in dosage with potentially dangerous outcomes.
Get a scale or learn how to use liquid volumetric dosing. It's that simple, and not at all expensive.
 
So if acute harm is quickly recognized as such judging by the history of compounds like PMA or the NBOMe series, and if we do not see such cases of harm from psychedelic research chemicals, and there isn't a plausible mechanism for a method of initiating a non-acute slow decline, then the remaining position that is logically tenable is that concerns over long-term effects are at best mistaken or overblown, and at worst are deliberate falsehoods used to bolster one's biases against a certain compound or class of compounds when debating its relative merits.
I basically, and for most cases as it regards practical decision making, agree with what you're saying, though in the interest of accuracy I'll add that drug-induced alterations in gene expression might supply a source of longer term harm that extends significantly beyond damage induced during a drug's presence in the body. Of course, even the FDA doesn't necessarily know about or even suspect such mechanisms when it approves many new drugs, so the point is just a factual one and not anything that can reliably inform RC users habits (beyond avoiding ANY new drug whatsoever, psychoactive or not -- though I do think it wise to avoid adding drugs of uncertain or muddled utility to any frequent regimen because of unknown risks).

I've brought up shorter versions of the same point you're making in conversations with people that trot out the "but you don't know the long-term harms" nonsense. As soon as I do they try to change the subject or otherwise dismiss it as soon as possible, presumably because they're embarrassed at having their attempt to overextend the influence of what they clearly know nothing about exposed. I think they're just parroting what they've heard other people say without thinking it through. We're all guilty of that in some context or others, but I think we're still right to call someone on their bullshit if they intend that bullshit to be prescriptive or normative (to substantially alter the behavior of others in ways that aren't obviously in their interests).
 
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The only safe 2c is b, and that has no real research done on it either.

Oh wonderful, another authoritative declaration with no basis in fact.

Weeksendinginy: can you please link to the published, peer reviewed research that leads you to be so sure about your statement that 2c-b is the only safe 2,5,dimethoxyphenethylamine.
 
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