Heroin: a unique, harmless substance...

[JessFR]

I think its dangerous and any healthcare professional would agree. Feel how you want. If you tell someone its safe then they may try. If you have a reason to think its not- and i have some- then you shouldn't encourage it. I don't want to be even partially involved in the death or degredation of another person. I dont think its the most dangerous thing in the world but neither is noodling(fishing big catfish with your hands and feet). That kills alot of people too. I think its a dangerous hobby. Dumb. But some people get alot of happiness from it. I don't know anyone who heroin has made a happier person but by god if it does then do your thing. The only good use for heroin i can see would be pain management. At some point quality of life outweighs the risk of death. Its all about risk vs reward. And the long term risk typically outweighs any long term reward with this drug. I'll leave ya'll alone. Have a good day and be safe. You're all more important than you know.

I don't care if any healthcare professional would agree. It wouldn't change objective reality. As a chemical substance heroin is relatively safe. This is a fact. You know what else has been shown repeatedly to be objective reality? That misleading people and withholding the truth when it comes to drugs so as to send the right message, or because it might make people use it, or whatever. Doesn't work. It gets people killed.

Bluelight is a harm reduction website, the philosophy of harm reduction requires people receive accurate information so as to make informed choices. Refusing to say that heroin, as a substance by itself, is relatively say. Which is to say that beyond the risk of overdose, which is mostly confined to inexperienced users or users with low tolerance (and again we are talking theoretically regarding pure heroin not street heroin depending on where you life), and all the problems caused by addiction and blood born pathogens. The drug ITSELF won't cause much harm purely as a result of using it like alcohol or methamphetamine would.

This is the reality of the situation. If someone would use heroin after hearing what I just said they almost certainly were going to anyway, but they have a right to the truth and all the evidence suggests that giving people the truth leads to better outcomes than deception. And withholding saying this reality because someone might use it as an excuse to try heroin is deceptive.

And you know, for all the pain and destruction and loss heroin has brought into my life, I don't tend to think about how my life would have been different had I never used heroin, cause I honestly think I might well have killed myself had I not started using heroin to cope at the time in my life when I did. And I know others who'd say the same. Now this is NOT an endorsement for anyone to try heroin. Unless you're on the verge of killing yourself, if you at all like your life, I don't think you should go anywhere near heroin. Or opioids in general. The destruction they can cause you your life is unimaginable.

But the reality of the situation is what it is, and distorting that reality in any way even well intentioned goes against the principles of harm reduction that bluelight ascribes to.

Sorry - tried to DM but it seems yr inbox is full.

I freed up space and accepted your friend request.

 

[Mafioso]

Low doses of alcohol/ moderate drinking(no more than 1-2 drinks per day) has been shown to have beneficial preventative effects of a number of illnesses, including certain types of heart disease, gallbladder disease, stroke, diabetes, chronic bronchitis and a number of other disease/illness. It's also a fact that moderate drinkers have a lower mortality rate than those who don't drink.

Most of the harmful aspects of alcohol are dose related. However, not many try to argue that alcohol is harmless.

Ignoring all the psychological and physiological effects it has, all opioids are known to cause death at high enough doses. I would think this simple fact would exclude it from being considered "harmless". Maybe it can be considered relatively safe at low doses if its high affinity for addiction isn't considered dangerous, but harmless would imply that no harm can come from it, which is most certainly not the case.

 

[JessFR]

Well it's certainly not "harmless". It is addictive to a major extent and that alone can cause significant damage. But no, the fact that a high enough dose is lethal should not exclude it from being called harmless. Now I'm not saying it IS harmless, I'm saying the reverse of that. But I am saying the simple fact that a certain amount is lethal, in itself, is meaningless. Water consumption will result in death if you consume too much but nobody would say water is harmful.

As for alcohol, I've seen no evidence that low doses of alcohol are beneficial at all. Mild consumption of red wine might be beneficial but that's in spite of the alcohol not because of it. I haven't seen any evidence of alcohol having a broad beneficial effect on the human body at any amount. All the supposed health benefits of alcohol consumption that I have ever seen relate to wine and it has nothing to do with the alcohol in it.

 

[Captainsafety]

I don't see calling something harmless, that has a track record of causing harm, is reducing harm. I didn't give any false statistics or say that it will definately kill you. Its just that its not harmless. Maybe if you are counting only pure heroin the numbers go down but this is no new drug. It has caused physical problems for people for many yrs. That is the definition of harm. Physical or mental damage.

 

[Mafioso]

Well it's certainly not "harmless". It is addictive to a major extent and that alone can cause significant damage. But no, the fact that a high enough dose is lethal should not exclude it from being called harmless. Now I'm not saying it IS harmless, I'm saying the reverse of that. But I am saying the simple fact that a certain amount is lethal, in itself, is meaningless. Water consumption will result in death if you consume too much but nobody would say water is harmful.

As for alcohol, I've seen no evidence that low doses of alcohol are beneficial at all. Mild consumption of red wine might be beneficial but that's in spite of the alcohol not because of it. I haven't seen any evidence of alcohol having a broad beneficial effect on the human body at any amount. All the supposed health benefits of alcohol consumption that I have ever seen relate to wine and it has nothing to do with the alcohol in it.

"Moderate drinking of alcohol decreases the progress of atherosclerosis, cardiovascular morbidity and mortality rate and total mortality"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11262912

"Moderate alcohol consumption may have beneficial effects on health. These include decreased risk for heart disease and mortality due to heart disease, decreased risk of ischemic stroke (in which the arteries to the brain become narrowed or blocked, resulting in reduced blood flow), and decreased risk of diabetes."
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Water isn't commonly considered harmful because it is essential for human life and does not pose a risk like opiate use does. No one accidentally dies because they had one more glass of water. Water is not in itself fatal. The danger of drinking too much water has to do with lowered sodium levels, not water toxicity. Water is not associated with addictive behavior. Dehydration is far more common that over hydration. Water provides health benefits and there are no negative side effects to drinking normal amounts of water.

The difference between a therapeutic dose and a fatal dose of opioids is relatively small and can be somewhat unpredictable due to tolerance. Opioids can be fatal due to the fact they are a CNS depressant. They are not essential for human health in any amount.

Again, this is without even tearing into all the psychological and physiological changes that opiates cause in the body. These changes, such as levels of neurotransmitters, can be considered harmful because they are directly associated with problems such as withdrawal and emotional instability. The side effects certainly aren't considered beneficial or benign.

Almost every class of drug has a medical use, from opioids to amphetamines. This does not mean they are harmless. The difference between a therapeutic dose and a harmful dose is often directly related to quantity.

 

[ovo1024]

This thread is very interesting love all the different point of views.

 

[Erikmen]

"Moderate drinking of alcohol decreases the progress of atherosclerosis, cardiovascular morbidity and mortality rate and total mortality"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11262912

"Moderate alcohol consumption may have beneficial effects on health. These include decreased risk for heart disease and mortality due to heart disease, decreased risk of ischemic stroke (in which the arteries to the brain become narrowed or blocked, resulting in reduced blood flow), and decreased risk of diabetes."
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Water isn't commonly considered harmful because it is essential for human life and does not pose a risk like opiate use does. No one accidentally dies because they had one more glass of water. Water is not in itself fatal. The danger of drinking too much water has to do with lowered sodium levels, not water toxicity. Water is not associated with addictive behavior. Dehydration is far more common that over hydration. Water provides health benefits and there are no negative side effects to drinking normal amounts of water.

The difference between a therapeutic dose and a fatal dose of opioids is relatively small and can be somewhat unpredictable due to tolerance. Opioids can be fatal due to the fact they are a CNS depressant. They are not essential for human health in any amount.

Again, this is without even tearing into all the psychological and physiological changes that opiates cause in the body. These changes, such as levels of neurotransmitters, can be considered harmful because they are directly associated with problems such as withdrawal and emotional instability. The side effects certainly aren't considered beneficial or benign.

Almost every class of drug has a medical use, from opioids to amphetamines. This does not mean they are harmless. The difference between a therapeutic dose and a harmful dose is often directly related to quantity.

Interesting post!

It can also be harmful if it's too pure, meaning that the same dose as used previously could also kill.

 

[Kittycat5]

It is the dose that makes the poison. Im paraphrasing Paracelsus who knew this like 400 years ago. Honestly this thread is quite pointless when you consider my first statement.

 

[Captainsafety]

You can take a low dose of antifreeze and live too.

 

[burn out]

I'm sorry but this is total crap. How exactly is opium less dangerous than say, morphine addiction, and how is morphine addiction less dangerous than heroin addiction. The only argument that might hold any validity at all is that with the plant matter you can't end up using the needle. But this whole Mother Nature thing is bullshit. I wouldn't care, but it's dangerous advice.

It's not "total crap" you probably don't have experience with opium vs heroin/morphine addiction. The reason heroin and morphine are more dangerous than opium is because it is far easier to overdose on them. Yes, there is the fact that the plant matter prevents you from using the needle but that isn't the only reason. Even snorting heroin is still more dangerous than opium, because it's a far more potent drug and produces more respiratory depression. There have been studies showing that after a shot of heroin, respiration falls to levels low enough to cause hypoxia with even an average recreational dosage.

Being man made doesn't equal bad, antibiotics are man made and have saved countless lives.
And being natural CERTAINLY doesn't equal good. Ricin, smallpox, anthrax, Botox, cyanide, these are all natural things too. And they certainly aren't good.

You need to read more carefully. I specifically stated that I wasn't saying all synthetic drugs were bad because of people like you. I know there are synthetic drugs that have saved lives and natural toxins. That wasn't my point. My point was that altering natural plant medicines and making them ultra pure generally makes them less safe and less medicinal. For example, pure synthetic thc is not as effective a medicine as the marijuana plant. Morphine is not as safe as opium. Cocaine/crack is FAR more dangerous than coca leaves, etc.

Pharmacologically, which is to say, in the way that actually matters, heroin IS safe. It's not a toxic drug and it is as safe as drugs can be. To say otherwise is to use such a broad definition as to render the word "deadly" or "toxic" meaningless.

Heroin as safe as drugs can be? That strikes me as an absurd claim. Heroin is highly addictive, kills many of its users and isn't even safe in normal recreational doses. Now contrast that with a substance like kratom. Kratom hardly kills anyone, is far less addictive and does not dangerously depress a users breathing or impair their mental state as much as heroin.

That said, heroin most certainly IS bad, and heroin addiction can, and does, kill people. The drug may not be inherently deadly, but neither is water, but too much water can kill you by disrupting your electrolyte levels. Many otherwise nonlethal things can kill you if misused, but the nature of heroin leads itself to being misused far more than most. So it may not be harmful inherently in the chemical sense, but it most certainly leads to great harm in a less direct way.

This would seem to contradict your claim that it is "as safe as a drug can be" as you admit heroin kills people and lends itself to misuse and it does those things more than many other substances.

Personally what I think this shows is that simply categorizing things as lethal or dangerous or safe. Toxic or not toxic. Is so simplistic as to be wildly misleading. Much better to actually learn the full story so you can get the whole picture, and forget about all the simplistic labels.

I agree but I think if you would examine the whole picture you would come to realize that heroin has more risks than similar drugs like kratom, opium, and hydrocodone. It's simply a lot more powerful and things that are very powerful are also tend to be dangerous.

 

[Kittycat5]

JessFR knows all about heroin, burn out. I would never say heroin in harmless simply because of how addictive it can be, but as a trained pharmacist, Jess is absolutely correct about heroin, pharmacologically.

 

[burn out]

The difference between a therapeutic dose and a fatal dose of opioids is relatively small and can be somewhat unpredictable due to tolerance. Opioids can be fatal due to the fact they are a CNS depressant. They are not essential for human health in any amount.

Exactly, this is why comparison to water don't hold very much water in my opinion. Yes it is possible to drink too much water and die but practically speaking this rarely happens and is easy to prevent. Water does not provide an incentive to consume in huge amounts approaching overdose territory. Opiates do. I have overdosed on heroin and almost died without meaning to. I have never almost died from drinking too much water.

 

[Kittycat5]

But thats really a problem with the user, not the drug. If you have pure diacetylmorphine and take it at therapeutic doses, its no different than morphine or any other opioid. The problems arise from purity and human behavior, not the drug itself.

 

[burn out]

JessFR knows all about heroin, burn out. I would never say heroin in harmless simply because of how addictive it can be, but as a trained pharmacist, Jess is absolutely correct about heroin, pharmacologically.

Not if he fails to take into account the risk of respiratory depression, which IS indeed greater than many other drugs.
Just because someone is a trained pharmacist or what have you, doesn't automatically make them right.

Our data suggest heroin-induced respiratory depression as a trigger for brain hypoxia, which leads to hyperglycemia, both of which appear independent of subsequent changes in brain temperature and metabolic neural activity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28593192

This thread contains more information on the neurbiological damage caused by heroin and other strong opiates:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-504764.html

 

[burn out]

But thats really a problem with the user, not the drug. If you have pure diacetylmorphine and take it at therapeutic doses, its no different than morphine or any other opioid. The problems arise from purity and human behavior, not the drug itself.

I would say the problems arise from a combination of human behavior and the nature of the drug. I'm not arguing that it is impossible to take heroin without dying or suffering permanent damage. I'm arguing that heroin is more dangerous than many other substances specifically because it poses a greater risk of dependence, withdrawal, respiratory depression and fatal overdose. Compare it with kratom for example. If you follow 10,000 people using heroin and 10,000 people using heroin, I can virtually guarantee you that you are going to have more cases of the substance causing death in the heroin users than the kratom users. That suggests that substances themselves can have properties which make them or more less risky in the hands of humans.

I didn't argue it was more dangerous than morphine either (although one could argue it is a little bit because it's more potent by weight) , but any other opioid? Absolutely. There is no doubt in my mind you are at greater risk of dying or experiencing severe withdrawals using heroin than codeine for example.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Closing arguments perhaps? I think we all are more or less in agreement here.

1. Heroin, in a physiological sense, is not toxic or poisonous when used within reasonable dosages. It's just a fact. Constipation can be a serious concern, but it typically can treated symptomatically without even ceasing Opioids.

2. Heroin can make your life much worse, depending on how you define good and bad. It's not the drug that ruins your life, it's the pursuit of the drug in favor of other life obligations that causes the problems. If you're an Alcoholic, for instance, you will be dealing with the same psycho-social issues, while also destroying your body from a physiological standpoint in the process.

There's no reason why we can't leave this open indefinitely, but if there aren't any arguments to the contrary, shall we move on?

 

[burn out]

Closing arguments perhaps? I think we all are more or less in agreement here.

1. Heroin, in a physiological sense, is not toxic or poisonous when used within reasonable dosages. It's just a fact. Constipation can be a serious concern, but it typically can treated symptomatically without even ceasing Opioids.

2. Heroin can make your life much worse, depending on how you define good and bad. It's not the drug that ruins your life, it's the pursuit of the drug in favor of other life obligations that causes the problems. If you're an Alcoholic, for instance, you will be dealing with the same psycho-social issues, while also destroying your body from a physiological standpoint in the process.

There's no reason why we can't leave this open indefinitely, but if there aren't any arguments to the contrary, shall we move on?

What constitutes reasonable dosages? My point is that even normal recreational doses are capable of producing a harmful level of respiratory depression. Many people seem to think that nodding out all over their keyboard is a reasonable dose. It's actually very close to OD level.

 

[Erikmen]

I believe we all know Heroin is hardly some drug you can choose to use it with moderation. Probably not in short term if one's is really disciplined. But it's a fact Heroin is very addictive, and impossible to just have a small bit whenever you want. Of course many users, like me have once wished that it would be like that, but there's a history trail behind its use.

 

[JessFR]

Well, maybe some people could use it responsibly, people who don't like it much to start with and have no desire too.

Virtually nobody who likes it can keep their use under control in the long term. I've never heard of it lasting beyond a few years. And that was with other opioids. Haven't even heard of that long with heroin.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I'm not trying to be a duck here, but there is so little difference between Heroin and other Opioids that it is hardly a subject worth debating.

Heroin, being a substantially more dangerous and/or addictive drug than prescribed Opioids is essentially the last great propaganda tool that pharma has to play. Don't help them spread this propaganda.

Heroin or Diacetyl-Morphine, is only so common because it was the most financially feasible way of fortifying Morphine. There are countless similar drugs produced around a century ago, but Heroin stood the test of time.