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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Heroin: a unique, harmless substance...

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I agree with almost everything you said, except for the part about methadone being psychologically more addicting than H. But I'm curious, with all this information known for you, why are you addicted? It is absolutely possible to use it once in a while like alcohol, you're 100 percent correct. So I was wondering what made you decide to have to use it daily or get withdrawals.

Dude, I haven't seen anything out of you in a couple of days and it would figure that the first thing I see you post is an essentially inflammatory statement. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the concept of compulsive drug use defying logic and reason (addiction) is unknown to you. I think you're well-aware that people do not usually make a conscious decision to become hopeless drug addicts.

Basically, everyone from a five-year old child to my own grandmother who is a teetotaler are familiar with the idea that these drugs are addictive and hijack peoples' minds, making their level of common sense, responsibility or knowledge pretty much irrelevant. There are few people in the developed world who started using Heroin without the knowledge that it's extremely addictive.

This comment is not as bad as some of your other ones, but I see a pattern of negativity that I really do not like. I've seen you directly put people down for their addictions in the past, so it's hard to convince me that this question is somehow from the goodness of your heart or for purposes of research. You know drugs are addictive. You know that people lose control of themselves due to drugs. Still you ask someone why they became addicted, as if it was their choice.

Justtakethat: Do you desire to be a respected or even, tolerated member of the community or do you want to be the thorn in everyone's side? We've talked about this. People are still complaining and you're still doing the same things.
 
Nobody hates Mananas for making these statements. In principle, I agree with what he's saying in most of his points. The issue I have is more with the irresponsibility of titling a thread "Heroin: A Unique and Harmless Substance". This is not an issue that can be defined in absolute terms. Aside from the social damage that Heroin can cause, it's not even true to say that there is no physiological risk either. Lethal overdose through respiratory depression is possible and the constipation induced by Opioid use can indeed be harmful and even fatal in some cases. Read up on Toxic Megacolon.

My problem, in short, is that this is a blanket statement that could easily be misinterpreted and a lot of people will only read the thread title and never go farther past the front page. Most Opioids are not inherently toxic to the body in the same way as say, Cocaine or Alcohol. Opioids can be used chronically with little health repercussions, contrary to popular belief. However, blanket statements are dangerous, because these substances are highly addictive both physiologically and psychologically.

So, although they are medically harmless outside of lethal overdose and constipation, they can still ruin your life and the lives of those around you. We don't want to give people the idea that there aren't consequences to dabbling in Opioids.

Nobody is flaming Mananas for stating that Heroin is medically non-toxic. We're upset because blanket statements like this are potentially quite harmful. Please, please do not phrase anything as absolute fact unless it is an absolute fact. Not everybody researches what they read to verify the authenticity. Some people believe everything they read.


=D=D Preach, my ninja.
 
Dude, I haven't seen anything out of you in a couple of days and it would figure that the first thing I see you post is an essentially inflammatory statement. I'm sorry, but I do not believe that the concept of compulsive drug use defying logic and reason (addiction) is unknown to you. I think you're well-aware that people do not usually make a conscious decision to become hopeless drug addicts.

Basically, everyone from a five-year old child to my own grandmother who is a teetotaler are familiar with the idea that these drugs are addictive and hijack peoples' minds, making their level of common sense, responsibility or knowledge pretty much irrelevant. There are few people in the developed world who started using Heroin without the knowledge that it's extremely addictive.

This comment is not as bad as some of your other ones, but I see a pattern of negativity that I really do not like. I've seen you directly put people down for their addictions in the past, so it's hard to convince me that this question is somehow from the goodness of your heart or for purposes of research. You know drugs are addictive. You know that people lose control of themselves due to drugs. Still you ask someone why they became addicted, as if it was their choice.

Justtakethat: Do you desire to be a respected or even, tolerated member of the community or do you want to be the thorn in everyone's side? We've talked about this. People are still complaining and you're still doing the same things.
Mate of course I would like to be a respected member, I joined about 2 years ago and casually make posts. You don't need to call me out on almost every thread though that I post on man that's not cool. I would respectfully like the OP to answer my harmless question that is solely in the sake of curiosity.
 
Physical Changes are certainly taking place in the brain and whether you wish to call them harm or not they are certainly detrimental to your ability to deal with life. You are hijacking your brains reward center with an extremely euphoric substance thus dampening all other life experiences. Your statement down plays the physiological and psychological changes to the brain that take place even with periodic use. Assuming such a premise of not getting addicted doesn't even take into account the way the brains reward pathways work. If you enjoy heroin then you are programed to repeat the process over again and most likely will. Now whether it takes you fast or slow is dependent on a number of factors.

A Case in point. I recently had a friend who used heroin with us for 15yrs without ever getting addicted. He could take it or leave it but over time his usage slowly increased and his ability to feel pleasure from and deal with life decreased. Eventually he was confronted with a tough period in life... money and marriage problems.

He had trained his mind slowly over time to associate heroin with pleasure. As his mindset darkened partly due to the self perpetuating nature of addiction.. i.e.. Problem-escape-euphoria-depleted pleasure center-depression exacerbated by the problem that one first sought to escape and a cascading effect of problems- followed by an increased desire to replace the problem and the low with the euphoria once again.

He eventually began to rely on heroin more and more. He had slowly over time rewired the pleasure center of his mind. He was hooked after over 15yrs of successful periodic use. Last time I saw him he was not doing too well. He had always felt above it and had made fun of our addictive tendencies but it caught up with him.

It is simply how our brains and instincts were wired to help us survive by increasing our desire for sex, food or any other pleasurable activities deemed necessary for survival. Science even proves that this powerful process even circumvents and negates your frontal lobes ability to reason that the activity is not actually necessary. Now we can argue over whether these physical changes in the brain are damage or not and at what point they actually occur all day but on to your next statement.

ps: being addicted on it's own is not harmful, that's why Methadone can be prescribed a lifetime, though it in fact is physiologically more addictive than Heroin - Methadone also does not cause any harm to both body and mind. (Opioids in general are a unique group of harmless substances: cf. notice the distinction between Opioids and Opiates, between semi-synthetic and fully synthetic - fully synthetic Opiates are (can be) harmful. Examples: Heroin and Methadone are semi-synthetic, Fentanyl or U-4 (Pinky) f.e. are fully synthetic, also Oxycodone is an harmful Opiate because it can cause major internal bleeds, more specific stomach-bleeds, and this while being a Morphine-mimetic, yet Morphine is semi-synthetic and not in any way harmful)
They have been saying this garbage on bluelight since 2000. As a 20yr heroin/methadone addict. I can say that this is BS. I have chronically low T, other HPA-axis and adrenal fatigue problems, Thyroid problems, depression, anxiety and cannot sleep more than 3hrs at a time.

I can assure you that methadone and other narcotics mess up your teeth by drawing out calcium(even cases of opiod osteoporosis), absorption problems and by causing chronic dry mouth.

Heroin and methadone also greatly decrease REM sleep, which causes a whole host of psychological, cognitive and memory formation issues that aren't yet fully understood.

You may call the rewiring of your pleasure center as harmless but I would rather not suffer extreme long term anhedonia...

I always love when people try and divorce psychological from physiological when our psyches and perceptions are so intertwined with biological processes.

Note at this time the brain and endocrine systems interactions aren't even fully understood.

Also the long term GI tract issues associated with opiate use greatly affect the bodies ability to digest and absorb nutrients.

You can say there is no physical damage being done all you want but you are quite simply wrong. Long term changes(damages) to the brain and body do take place and can take years if ever to repair themselves.

All of these systemic changes only increased my desire to artificially stimulate my pleasure pathways with an exogenous source(heroin) because it was a failing infected system.

There are no free rides.. Your body is a temple and you cannot even pretend to understand all the symbiotic relationships between your bodies various systems and mind but you can continue to keep playing the heroin game and delude yourself all you want.

I am only saying this so passionately because I was once a naïve 19yr old scrolling bluelight, who did not truly understand how addiction worked(physiological changes) and believed after hearing such statements that I was above it all and could successfully use without consequences.

P.S also I believe you meant to say that diamorphine is semi-synthetic because morphine, as you incorrectly stated, is in fact a naturally occurring opiate.
 
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That's a good point, if you have a serious heroin habit your choices are either be enslaved to methadone for God knows how long, or get off it cold turkey and then endure PAWS. That's damaging.

Personally I chose methadone. I'm not going cold turkey from a 1.5 gram a day habit just to suffer from PAWS when it's done, fuck that, I'd rather be enslaved to methadone.
 
Mate of course I would like to be a respected member, I joined about 2 years ago and casually make posts. You don't need to call me out on almost every thread though that I post on man that's not cool. I would respectfully like the OP to answer my harmless question that is solely in the sake of curiosity.

The question isn't harmless, it implies people become addicted by choice or stupidity, neither of which are true, and the implication is physiologically harmful.

But to answer your question, "choice" is a funny thing. For people who've never been suicidally depressed it can be near impossible to relate to how such a psychological state impairs your decision making.

For me, I knew heroin and opioids were addictive, but I was in such a low state in my life all I cared about was making the pain stop. I didn't expect to live very long anyway, so I figured it didn't matter if I became dependent. And it did work, sort of. Opioids and especially heroin kept me from being depressed and kept me from killing myself when my life wasn't worth living for a long long time before I decided I'd had enough.

But what I'm saying is, people who've never experienced serious psychological trauma and depression can't relate too, understand, or appreciate how it affects the choices you make, causing even intelligent rational people to make bad choices with things like drugs.
 
But isn't it being addictive harmful? Like you said you are addicted to it. So your body needs it or it will go into withdrawal?

Yes, indeed. You loose your freedom and sense of reality.
 
Many people consider addiction itself as harmful to their lives. Who wants to be owned by an obsession, drug or non-drug?

Exactly! It's a living nightmare. You can't see it because you are numbed.

Besides, it doesn't let you grow up, or have meaningful real relationships in life. It's all an illusion. And "God forbid" if you don't always have it available. I've been in denial before I know it may look just perfect.
 
Exactly! It's a living nightmare. You can't see it because you are numbed.

Besides, it doesn't let you grow up, or have meaningful real relationships in life. It's all an illusion. And "God forbid" if you don't always have it available. I've been in denial before I know it may look just perfect.

Exactly!! You don't learn to deal with life and even if you have a constant supply. You will lose your life force. You will eventually become an apathetic slug with no motivation, drive, desires or dreams.. Then One realizes that they are quite alone in their unsustainable dream world. I lost the ability to feel pleasure from any external influences in life as the drugs manipulation of my pleasure pathways trumped all other drives. I ceased caring about living and the worst part was that I no longer even experienced pleasure from the drugs. I was either sick, blah or passed out.
 
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^ That's pretty much all it happens. Great sum up, there's no where to go from there. And when you realize the only way is out, that's only the start of new life you should have had lived from the beginning.
 
You don't need to call me out on almost every thread though that I post on man that's not cool.

keif mods BDD mate which is where you pretty much exclusively post.
its called moderating..
༼ ༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ༽
 
keif mods BDD mate which is where you pretty much exclusively post.
its called moderating..
༼ ༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ༽
If there is something wrong with what I posted he could PM me but clearly I had said nothing harmful at all, and didn't really need to be addressed about it. I'm just saying I don't see others getting called out all the time.
 
If there is something wrong with what I posted he could PM me but clearly I had said nothing harmful at all, and didn't really need to be addressed about it. I'm just saying I don't see others getting called out all the time.

༼ ༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ༽ honestly, you have to admit you have a tendency to push the line a bit, surely?
other people don't do that, hence you don't see them being 'called out'.
 
Not to hijack the thread, but (attempting) to put an end to all this: justtakethat, it is the way you're replying to threads is what is causing keeping, and others, a headache. Understand he is a mod so it's his obligation to make sure everything is discussed in a proper way, and frankly it's in everyones best interest. It isn't anything personal at all but you should maybe try to read what you type before posting it. and then re-read it two more times and try to put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself if this is how you would want someone to respond to you. I always find myself editing my posts in an attempt to convey my message better. Compassion and passion are two things i am working on myself, but I think that this could help towards a solution to all the bickering. cheers.
 
It's not harmless. Even regular doses of heroin can dangerously slow down breathing, leading to hypoxia. Heroin is actually a pretty dangerous drug.

Secondly, I will quote another poster saying

Physical Changes are certainly taking place in the brain and whether you wish to call them harm or not they are certainly detrimental to your ability to deal with life.

Exactly. It seems the OP is choosing to define "harm" according to his own whims. A LOT of drugs are actually "harmless" when used occasionally in safe amounts. For example, drinking a glass or two of wine once in a while will not harm most people at all. Smoking a little weed is pretty safe also, as are most natural psychoactives like kava, magic mushrooms, tobacco, etc. I don't think you can really argue that the changes in the brain due to alcohol are "harm" while those due to heroin are not, because in both cases the brain will return to normal unless the usage is excessive/prolonged.

Heroin is a dangerous drugs with it's own unique set of risks, just like every drug has a unique set of risks.
 
I must admit I did not took that in consideration, you have given me a new perspective to think about, Somnilicious...
 
We never do unless something bad happens or in your case when we are still capable to hear, even though we feel magnetized to what keeps us 'safe', só to speak.
 
I must admit I did not took that in consideration, you have given me a new perspective to think about, Somnilicious...

No problem man... I would do anything to keep anyone from being in the position I am in. Most of the time it falls on deaf ears though. By the way.. I would love to visit Amsterdam and not for the usual reasons drugies visit but because it is a beautiful looking city. My ancestry is British, Dutch, Irish and Puerto Rican... I am quite the Anglophile and romanticize the old world...
 
It's a great city. Indeed, quite beautiful. However, in regards to drugs it's amazing how dangerous it can be with all the fake drugs all around. I loved it but stayed the f**k away from the drug scenes.
 
I specified that I was talking about not-addicted users.

Me, I'm not actually addicted, I just started using and from the first time didn't quit anymore because I can't handle (my) life (in general) and sober I am just a pile of useless flesh and bones laying around accomplishing less than zero fucking shit...
 
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