red22
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2009
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A few years ago I mail ordered some Peganum harmala extract and yopo seeds and tried a little experiment: I made tea with the yopo seeds and consumed a low dose after consuming the P. harmala extract. What I expected to be a variant of a low dose of ayahuasca felt like MDMA. Turns out 5-HO-DMT, the only substantial chem in yopo seeds,[1] is a serotonin releaser.[2] Indeed, little did I know how much risk I was taking as people have died from combining harmine and/or harmaline (harmalas) with the related 5-MeO-DMT[2] (5-MeO-DMT is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor[3] and partially metabolizes into 5-HO-DMT[4]). But of course, the dose makes the poison: This is an article about combining stimulants with MAOIs and it says that that quote is most relevant:
As Paracelsus stated, ‘the dose makes the poison’ and that certainly applies to amphetamine.
18. CNS ‘Stimulants’ and MAOIs Part 2. Psychotropical Research. Ken Gillman, MD, 2022, 2023
And Shulgin has specifically commented about the 5-MeO-DMT-harmala combo:
I have heard very mixed reports from trials employing P. harmala and the second of the biotic tryptamines, 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine, or 5-MeO-DMT. Apparently, modest amounts of both components gives a modest experience, but I have had two reports of truly toxic crises with larger quantities.
TiHKAL (part 1). Alexander Shulgin. 1997. 16. Hoasca vs. Ayahuasca, p. 302
Indeed, people have even combined harmalas with MDMA.[5] Combining MAOIs with serotonergic/noradrenergic/dopaminergic stimulants is considered taboo because MAOIs stop the natural cycle of clearing those chems from the brain, enabling them to build up to exponential levels. So with my "bufohuasca" experiment, I harnessed an otherwise weak serotonergic effect. Also, only a hint of psychedelia, like MDMA.
So, it's a legit synergistic combo that will give you a formidable high, unlike a lot of legal highs, but you just have to know your dose and stick to that dose.
Warning: The harmala-MDMA combo is probably one of the riskiest combos and the MDMA doses were probably tiny in all cases.
Also, someone who tried the harmala-5-MeO-DMT combo also reported an MDMA-like effect:
i did it several times with caapi extract at retreats in spain and france.
zll2244, Mar 29, 2024, re: Can i take 5-MeO-DMT orally with a MAOI?
was with “inner mastery”, they operate in different countries but are based out of spain. (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
it was administered by this french guy, was a group of 7 of us that did it. i don’t think it was a regular thing. i ended up doing it again in france at a private retreat with 6 people. be careful about it however. dosage is important so i don’t know how safe it is. (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
we took 1 capsule which was the same capsules that have the bufo we would vaporize at the retreats. i do not know what dosage that was but it was a vaporization dosage ingested with caapi extract.
the actual bufo in the capsule looked like tiny plastic/glass fragments.
it was an “experimental” offer so yes was not normal. i was staying in one of their communes in madrid. later i was in france with a different group of people i met backpacking in kind of a crazy situation i don’t want to go into detail about.
definitely a euphoric mdma type effect feeling with strange organic type stuff over my vision that was not like a visual hallucination but more like something different i cannot describe well. i noticed the girl next to me the first time get pretty overwhelmed and i had to hold her up. (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
Did you experience any ego loss?
no (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
I should also ask you, do you get that MDMA-like effect from vaped/smoked 5-MeO?
maybe a little but 5meo vaped hits so fast it’s kind of hard to tell before you go to that impossible to explain state of being comfortably nothing and everything at once. (Apr 28, 2024, private message)
Speaking of which, I think the reason you didn’t get there from oral is because you took both the 5-MeO and the caapi at the same time, am I wrong? Whether you’re using tea or extracts, DMT is more effectively absorbed if the MAOI is ingested first (u/Sabnock101 recommends waiting a full hour*), amd I suspect that it’s especially wasteful to ingest extracts together.
*“You can even take the Harmalas regularly (been dosing them on a daily/near daily basis for 12 years myself in heavy dosages) and exactly an hour in when gut MAO-A is maximally inhibited (also the best time for consuming the DMT),”
[reddit]
good info thanks (Apr 28, 2024, private message)
1. reddit
2. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28979413#28979413
3. The 5-methoxylated version of DMT (5-MeO-DMT, 7) was a weak 5-HT uptake inhibitor (IC50 value=2,184 nM). This was somewhat surprising since the 5-hydroxy analog, 16, was a potent SERT-mediated releaser with an EC50 value of 30.5 nM. 5-OH-DMT (16), also known as bufotenin,
Interaction of psychoactive tryptamines with biogenic amine transporters and serotonin receptor subtypes. Blough BE, Landavazo A, Decker AM, Partilla JS, Baumann MH, Rothman RB. Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2014 Oct;231(21):4135-44. doi: 10.1007/s00213-014-3557-7 (Discussion)
4. Pharmacokinetic interactions between monoamine oxidase A inhibitor harmaline and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, and the impact of CYP2D6 status. Jiang XL, Shen HW, Mager DE, Yu AM. Drug Metab Dispos. 2013 May;41(5):975-86. doi: 10.1124/dmd.112.050724
5. Combining MDx with harmalas
Keywords: serotonin syndrome, serotonin toxicity, hypertensive crisis, hypertension
As Paracelsus stated, ‘the dose makes the poison’ and that certainly applies to amphetamine.
18. CNS ‘Stimulants’ and MAOIs Part 2. Psychotropical Research. Ken Gillman, MD, 2022, 2023
And Shulgin has specifically commented about the 5-MeO-DMT-harmala combo:
I have heard very mixed reports from trials employing P. harmala and the second of the biotic tryptamines, 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine, or 5-MeO-DMT. Apparently, modest amounts of both components gives a modest experience, but I have had two reports of truly toxic crises with larger quantities.
TiHKAL (part 1). Alexander Shulgin. 1997. 16. Hoasca vs. Ayahuasca, p. 302
Indeed, people have even combined harmalas with MDMA.[5] Combining MAOIs with serotonergic/noradrenergic/dopaminergic stimulants is considered taboo because MAOIs stop the natural cycle of clearing those chems from the brain, enabling them to build up to exponential levels. So with my "bufohuasca" experiment, I harnessed an otherwise weak serotonergic effect. Also, only a hint of psychedelia, like MDMA.
So, it's a legit synergistic combo that will give you a formidable high, unlike a lot of legal highs, but you just have to know your dose and stick to that dose.
Warning: The harmala-MDMA combo is probably one of the riskiest combos and the MDMA doses were probably tiny in all cases.
Also, someone who tried the harmala-5-MeO-DMT combo also reported an MDMA-like effect:
i did it several times with caapi extract at retreats in spain and france.
zll2244, Mar 29, 2024, re: Can i take 5-MeO-DMT orally with a MAOI?
was with “inner mastery”, they operate in different countries but are based out of spain. (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
it was administered by this french guy, was a group of 7 of us that did it. i don’t think it was a regular thing. i ended up doing it again in france at a private retreat with 6 people. be careful about it however. dosage is important so i don’t know how safe it is. (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
we took 1 capsule which was the same capsules that have the bufo we would vaporize at the retreats. i do not know what dosage that was but it was a vaporization dosage ingested with caapi extract.
the actual bufo in the capsule looked like tiny plastic/glass fragments.
it was an “experimental” offer so yes was not normal. i was staying in one of their communes in madrid. later i was in france with a different group of people i met backpacking in kind of a crazy situation i don’t want to go into detail about.
definitely a euphoric mdma type effect feeling with strange organic type stuff over my vision that was not like a visual hallucination but more like something different i cannot describe well. i noticed the girl next to me the first time get pretty overwhelmed and i had to hold her up. (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
Did you experience any ego loss?
no (Apr 26, 2024, private message)
I should also ask you, do you get that MDMA-like effect from vaped/smoked 5-MeO?
maybe a little but 5meo vaped hits so fast it’s kind of hard to tell before you go to that impossible to explain state of being comfortably nothing and everything at once. (Apr 28, 2024, private message)
Speaking of which, I think the reason you didn’t get there from oral is because you took both the 5-MeO and the caapi at the same time, am I wrong? Whether you’re using tea or extracts, DMT is more effectively absorbed if the MAOI is ingested first (u/Sabnock101 recommends waiting a full hour*), amd I suspect that it’s especially wasteful to ingest extracts together.
*“You can even take the Harmalas regularly (been dosing them on a daily/near daily basis for 12 years myself in heavy dosages) and exactly an hour in when gut MAO-A is maximally inhibited (also the best time for consuming the DMT),”
[reddit]
good info thanks (Apr 28, 2024, private message)
1. reddit
2. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28979413#28979413
3. The 5-methoxylated version of DMT (5-MeO-DMT, 7) was a weak 5-HT uptake inhibitor (IC50 value=2,184 nM). This was somewhat surprising since the 5-hydroxy analog, 16, was a potent SERT-mediated releaser with an EC50 value of 30.5 nM. 5-OH-DMT (16), also known as bufotenin,
Interaction of psychoactive tryptamines with biogenic amine transporters and serotonin receptor subtypes. Blough BE, Landavazo A, Decker AM, Partilla JS, Baumann MH, Rothman RB. Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2014 Oct;231(21):4135-44. doi: 10.1007/s00213-014-3557-7 (Discussion)
4. Pharmacokinetic interactions between monoamine oxidase A inhibitor harmaline and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, and the impact of CYP2D6 status. Jiang XL, Shen HW, Mager DE, Yu AM. Drug Metab Dispos. 2013 May;41(5):975-86. doi: 10.1124/dmd.112.050724
5. Combining MDx with harmalas
Keywords: serotonin syndrome, serotonin toxicity, hypertensive crisis, hypertension
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