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hemingway vs. alcoholics anonymous

pallidamors

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As anyone who I talk to on BL knows, I certainly love to drink and write. Many great writers were constant drinkers, foremost hemingway, but lets not forget bukowski, baudelaire, and villon just to name a few.

Now, any recovering alcoholic will tell you that you don't need alcohol or any drugs to fuel your creative power, but I disagree. I can't think of many alcoholics or junkies who produced great works during their time who got better after they quit their drug of choice. I'm not counting any "million little pieces" kind of present-tense zen-monk kind of quitting bullshit. I'm talking raw and real literature.

Discuss, BL.
 
Yes, which is why I argue that any great artist gets wrecked at least on occasion. I mean how many musically innovative straightedge bands can you think of?
 
Frank Zappa was damn innovative and he didn't do any drugs (except tobacco). Glen Gould was an incredable pianist, probably the best I've ever heard, and as far as I know he didn't do any drugs. He probably drank, but he wasn't a heavy recreational drinking and he certainly didn't drink before playing. Gabriel Garcia Marquez is a great author and he's not a druggie. Andre Gide wasn't a heavy user of any drugs (to my knowledge at least). I don't think drugs are neccesary for great art, but they seem to help quite a bit.
 
Anyone who can't see how incredibly valuable certain substances have the potential to be in helping with the creation of superior art doesn't deserve to enjoy either substances or art.
 
Frank Zappa had a lot of other things that motivated him: the impetus of his art, Ambition, and I think he didn't have that itch.

He did an incredible spot about speed in the late 60s (paraphrasing), it's much better in the original): "Go ahead and do speed, it'll make you just like your parents." Obviously, it's on point when he does it. I think its on a radio show with Captain Beefheart,

But Zappa smoked almost as many cigs as Yul Brynner: 4- 5 packs a day. Leaving cigs smoking in various ashtrays when he was on set. I had a friend like that. He had to have a cig burning in every room. Got another friend like that at my age (40) :( But original 5 cig guy is still alive and active and happy at 67. I have no idea why except he's got a real strong soul and he's active as hell. And he finally cut back to a pack a day.

On to drugs, I'm thinking about Billie Holliday, Dexter Gordon, Coltrane, Bird, Billy Strayhorn, Miles Davis, and Bill Evans in particular.

Oh, and as much as I revere Glenn Gould, he was on a crazy cocktail of pills, and painkillers and amphetamines figured strongly. Dude fought a very difficult fight to do what he did. He had crazy-ass OCD habits that may have been related to his depression/mental state and prescription drug use but he had a lot of unique and particular behaviors that he had to execute before performing. And they kept him off stage until he had performed all of his little OCD actions. But most of the time, he made it to the stage. But Glenn was not what we would nowadays consider clean.

I wish I could draw some conclusions, but I haven't figured it out yet. Wish I could. But I'm sure as hell trying to do so. What abut Billie Holliday, Ella, Sarah Vaughn, Hans Fallada and Bela Lugosi?

If you haven't watched the YouTube clip of Bela giving an interview right after he gets out of rehab, check it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM88vyxN82k I hope that link works. I'm a bit clumsy with links on BL and I bet there's a better version of Bela. The clip's audio is dreadfully shoddy. It's beautiful though. He's the epitome of a compassionate, sensitive, gentleman junkie and his interview is really inspiring. Look at him giving love to all the nurses and doctors as he walks out the door of the clinic. Don't think Vampire Dracula whatever, he just looks like a casually well-dressed anybody like any of us when we get it together. Just throw it back several decades. Very inspiring for me.

tl;dr

But getting back to the OP's post, Ray Carver was a dude who kicked years of DT-level alcohol use and put a lot of energy into getting clean. Then he found a woman who kept him on track and became his muse and the one who kept him on track. She was his Gibralter. He started writing after he got clean, and "Cathedral" is just about the best anyone could write (Warning: triggers). He swears he couldn't have written anything good without being sober.

There's a really good story behind his process of getting clean. He had a rough family life and he cut all ties with everyone from his alcoholic past. His people were pissed, especially after he became successful. But he swears he'd never have written a word without cutting everyone off. He made a lot of enemies getting clean but he did what he had to do. Forget about Wikipedia giving you the full story about any of this, look into it if it resonates with you.

I'v got no conclusions. just a lot of stuff I think about regularly.
 
Gabriel Garcia Marquez is a great author and he's not a druggie. .

I think G-squared-M was probably an exception to the rule though. Personally I think he's really uneven, I mean 100 Years of Solitude was kinda like the bible, only good and an enjoyable read, but Autumn of the Patriarch was a meandering river of dependent clauses that would send Hemingway into DTs if he tried to read a sentence without taking a drink in the middle.

As far as Ray Carver, I havent read him, would you say Cathedral is his best? For some reason I thought he wrote crime novels but I probably have him mixed up with somebody else.

It just occurred to me that Dante probably didn't have any drug or alcohol problems, and he was one of the greatest poets ever. Of course, he also had an unhealthy obsession with a babe he barely knew and who died years before he wrote the Divine Comedy. Interestingly, Dante's own wife and kids arent mentioned in the trilogy, either. So I guess Dante was probably just as pathological as the rest of us, and didn't need the help of substance abuse 8)
 
what about Irvine Welsh? Trainspotting iirc was written while he was sober, but he continously has flare ups with his "mistress" as he calls heroin.
 
also, i think most great writers tend to be insane, or suffer from something society deems unseemly (being gay). Virginia Woolf in the former, Proust, Wilde in the latter.
 
I'm a writer, getting my MA right now... I can't write for shit when I've been drinking. Even one beer. First thing that goes for me is my vocabulary.

Mescaline, however, stimulates my writing greatly.
 
Anyone who can't see how incredibly valuable certain substances have the potential to be in helping with the creation of superior art doesn't deserve to enjoy either substances or art.

to true
yes zappa was amaizing, but im sure he new that most of his work was injoyed under the influince. i personaly have never listined to his work sober.
lock at hunter S tompson, a majoer influince in my life, was costenly intoxicaded, and in my imoho, the raw deal.in fackt he was a junalist who allways used an aliest.
and my self, i come up whit my greates works so gone, that i have to read it sober to rember that i wrote it. this is not my opnion, but others!
 
what about Irvine Welsh? Trainspotting iirc was written while he was sober, but he continously has flare ups with his "mistress" as he calls heroin.

irvine is in his own class. the way he writes from everyones perspectiv, is allmost like spilt personality. or maby it was the differint perspecives he saw in life and addiction,or roles he played in his addiction????????????
 
The ability to see things from a different perspective is absolutely, irrefutably necessary for a novelist. The only authentic ways to gain new perspectives is through life experience or drugs, so obviously when those two meet in just the right circumstances the result is incredible. Personally, I believe that's what made Hunter S. Thompson such a vibrant and engaging writer; he successfully bound drugs to experience and documented the result.

In the instance of Raymond Carver, he was able to take his memories of runamock alcoholism and combine it with his subsequent experiences to produce his finest works during sobriety. So ultimately, while he wrote great literature sober, it doesn't change the fact that his creativity was still heavily influenced by the memories of alcohol.
 
I would say Denis Johnson is a perfect example. He was some no-name unread poet, then quit drugs, and a couple yrs ago he one the national book award among many other things
 
I'm an alcoholic and a writer but I don't really think drinking helps me write.

Maybe drinking a little bit,

Far less than I do

Would help me.

I don't know.

I think I can write with or without the booze.

So I chose to write with.

:)

Interesting. I've been trying to quit drinking, and I've noticed that since being sober, I can't write anything that isn't directly related to work. I seemingly have no creativity left.

Now, I'm sure booze doesn't magically make one creative, but maybe, being a depressant, it lowers inhibitory activity that might normally (but inadvertently, mind you) prevent some metaphors or free association from reaching the conscious mind. So I guess in essence it'd be a matter of somehow retraining myself to come up with ideas while sober.
 
L O V E L I F E said:
Anyone who can't see how incredibly valuable certain substances have the potential to be in helping with the creation of superior art doesn't deserve to enjoy either substances or art.

Amen.
 
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