Helping Wife with fent wd

[cdin]

I wasn't talking about cut drugs. I'm talking about pure opioid substances and not street drugs mixed with rat poison or xylazine that cause systemic infections upon injection and god knows what damage to the nervous system and the brain...


Read the actual studies that OP linked in the reddit post and you'll see that the cell death resulting from the toxic actions of excitatory amino acids is so miniscule that it's negligible and not even worth mentioning. It's in fact comparable to the oxidative stress that caffeine causes. I mean, we don't even need studies to prove that. Just compare the intellectual capacity of your average meth addict with the average opioid addict and you'll see the difference. 15 years of opioid addiction hasn't changed my cognitive abilities at all, which most certainly wouldn't be the case if I had fried my brain with meth or alcohol. Or take a look at all the notable historical individuals who happened to be Opium addicts and yet produced works of marvel (Paracelsus' medical books and discoveries for example, or Winston Churchill who although didn't produce anything notable was mentally sharp as a fox) that a materially degenerating brain wouldn't be able to produce. Thomas De Quincy's verbal intelligence alone is proof of that fact. Show me one meth fiend or heavy alcoholic who after decades of use can still talk in the most sophisticated manner. No matter the study, at the end of the day the practical examples that I'm seeing disprove the very notion that opioids damage the brain and if they do, the damage is so insignificant to not be worthy of entertaining any further thought.

Aside from these things, the actual methods of those studies themselves are problematic (I know, something that nobody actually seems to care about anymore. People just see the word "study" and are immediately convinced without actually looking into the details). The first study that OP linked (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772392522000220) comes to its conclusions by using theoretical models and extrapolates from there on to its conclusions. That method is even worse and less reliable than using rats. The quality of this study would have been much better if the researchers would have actually studied the brain of opioid addicts before addiction, while addiction develops and during glial cell inflammation which occurs during wd. But this study as it stands, is as useful as all those climate studies that work exclusivly with computer models. Well, surprise: the world isn't a computer model and cannot be accurately simulated. Even less so with the human brain of which we understand approximately less than 10%.

The second study by Cross and Linker isn't talking about acute and/or chronic toxicity but (temporary) neuroplastic changes that occur due to the nature of substance addiction itself.
See that'S the problem. The OP of the reddit post probably knew that people these days don't read more than headlines anymore due to their shortened attention spans (dopamine damaged people due to excessive smartphone and app use like TikTok...so much for brain damage) and then used these studies in a manipulative way to suggest something about opioids which objectively isn't true. Or perhaps he didn't have any nefarious intentions and was himself one of those people who didn't read past the headline and thus became the victim of a false conclusion. Whatever the case may be, those studies either have a) used bad methods and therefore result in a bad study quality, or b) are actually saying and concluding something very different than what OP is saying and concluding.

fair enough. and good! i did just read the summary which is kinda unlike me but i was genuinely upset by the direction of the information. so, thank you for the deeper read. :salute:

 

[Hexenstahl]

@cdin
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not mad at you or anything. What bothers me is just that people these days seem to accept far too readily and quickly things they haven't looked properly and deeply enough into, and this can cause misinformation to spread and cause a lot of confusion and damage. But again, not your fault. I blame the redditor who wrote the post...

 

[cdin]

@cdin
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not mad at you or anything. What bothers me is just that people these days seem to accept far too readily and quickly things they haven't looked properly and deeply enough into, and this can cause misinformation to spread and cause a lot of confusion and damage. But again, not your fault. I blame the redditor who wrote the post...

no not at all, as a mod i should hold myself to the highest standards of information and i dropped the ball on that one, I always appreciate another set of eyes, no shade taken at all. I also strongly dislike misleading and incorrect info and last thing i would want is to perpetuate it myself. won't delete this convo thread either so people can see how to graciously handle messin up on a msg board

 

[Jnowhere]

Nicotine kills more people too, but I'm sure you will blame it on the other things in cigarettes. Alcohol in moderation isn't bad. With the fentanyl, there is no moderation for the people who use it to get high. Acetaminophen kills the liver worse than alcohol. Other drugs cause psychosis and benzos destroy minds. I should know, let's leave it at that. You are talking on a controlled level, which is rare.

 

[Jen X]

Nope it isn't. Fentanyl is an opioid and opioids have been shown to have no toxic potential at all (neither neuro-, cyto-, nor genotoxic). The only harm that opioids cause is addiction and that's it. Ofc you can die if you take too much, but that is not toxicity, that is death caused by depressing that part of the CNS which is responsible for breathing.

99% of fentanyl people are using is not medical grade so ya what the op is referring to is more then likely street fent and very toxic

 

[cdin]

Nicotine kills more people too, but I'm sure you will blame it on the other things in cigarettes. Alcohol in moderation isn't bad. With the fentanyl, there is no moderation for the people who use it to get high. Acetaminophen kills the liver worse than alcohol. Other drugs cause psychosis and benzos destroy minds. I should know, let's leave it at that. You are talking on a controlled level, which is rare.

i am still so effed up atm from a recent bzd wd. never fucking again. don't think i have another one in me frankly.

 

[Hexenstahl]

99% of fentanyl people are using is not medical grade so ya what the op is referring to is more then likely street fent and very toxic

Yes, street fent is toxic, but not due to the fentanyl, but rather due to the cuts and impurities in it and THAT is what is toxic. Therefore it is incorrect to state that fentanyl is a toxic drug, because fentanyl, being an opioid, is verifiably NOT toxic.

Perhaps it becomes easier to understand what I mean when I use Heroin as an analogy:
The Heroin you score off the streets here in Germany and Switzerland is usually cut to shit with caffeine, talcum, rat poison, acetaminophen and other nasty stuff. Now imagine you inject this substance. What do you think is it that causes the damage: the opioid, or the cuts? The cuts obviously. The patients here in our clinic who receive clean heroin don't get any damage from it and the same would be the case if you guys would receive clean fentanyl. The question here was initially about the toxicity of fentanyl and that is simply, just as with heroin and any other opioid, non existent. Cuts and impurities are a different story. Me adding poison to your pizza doesn't mean the pizza is itself something that is toxic by nature. It is the POISON that I have added which is toxic and damaging you. I hope it is clear enough now what I am trying to convey here. Fentanyl itself is never toxic.

Nicotine kills more people too, but I'm sure you will blame it on the other things in cigarettes. Alcohol in moderation isn't bad. With the fentanyl, there is no moderation for the people who use it to get high. Acetaminophen kills the liver worse than alcohol. Other drugs cause psychosis and benzos destroy minds. I should know, let's leave it at that. You are talking on a controlled level, which is rare.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Nicotine kills because it is toxic. What you said about alcohol not being bad in moderation is false. Alcohol, even in small amounts, has been shown to be cytotoxic. This means, even in very small traces it actively damages every single cell in your body that it comes into contact with. To make matters even worse, the molecules that make up alcohol are so small that they can cross the blood brain barrier. In other words: alcohol circumvents the firewall of your body and gets directly into your brain where it starts to kill off grey matter. This explains why so many alcoholics suffer from neurodegenerative disease (diseases which literally degenerate your brain) and why so many formerly intelligent people turn into complete idiots after years of heavy drinking.

Yes, acetaminophen destroys the liver, other drugs like amphetamine are neurotoxic by causing oxidative stress and benzos turn your brain into mush. Not sure why you're telling me all this because I never said that these drugs aren't toxic.

Opioids are a different animal though. No toxicity has ever been shown to exist with this substance class and the only "adverse" health effect it causes is a completely reversible hormonal imbalance which cessates upon discontinuation of the opioid. That's it.

 

[Jnowhere]

I made a comment about alcohol not being a hard drug, then you talked about alcohol being most toxic

Errrm...alcohol IS the hardest drug in terms of toxicity.

 

[Hexenstahl]

I made a comment about alcohol not being a hard drug, then you talked about alcohol being most toxic

Yes, that's right. I'm arguing from the very beginning how in terms of toxicity it is the hardest drug. Then somehow the argument was made (I can't remember if it was you or Jennn) that fentanyl is toxic too, after which I tried elaborating how that is very clearly not the case. That's when our discussion started.

 

[Jnowhere]

It wasn't me

 

[Hexenstahl]

no not at all, as a mod i should hold myself to the highest standards of information and i dropped the ball on that one, I always appreciate another set of eyes, no shade taken at all. I also strongly dislike misleading and incorrect info and last thing i would want is to perpetuate it myself. won't delete this convo thread either so people can see how to graciously handle messin up on a msg board

You sir are a paragon of a moderator. The exact opposite of the oversensitive, tyrannical, know-it-all moderators of the swiss/german eve&rave forum who take everything personal and don't allow criticism.

 

[Jen X]

Ya it was me. The fentanyl being used is RC fentanyl and it is toxic without any additives.
Not fair to tell people it's not because pharmaceutical fentanyl isn't.
2 different beast

 

[Hexenstahl]

Ya it was me. The fentanyl being used is RC fentanyl and it is toxic without any additives.
Not fair to tell people it's not because pharmaceutical fentanyl isn't.
2 different beast

The reason your RC fentanyl might be toxic is because the chinese mf who cooked it was bad and you ended up with a batch that has toxic byproducts. It ain't the fault of the fent.

 

[Jen X]

Yes but again people on this site are using rc fentanyl not pharmaceutical

 

[Hexenstahl]

I give up...