Help methodone question xtremly high TOLERENCE

[pasha]

I was going to PM you but since you've posted it here I might as well just respond in this thread.

Technically we're not required to merge threads so long as each thread is asking a separate question. If the OP decides he wants them merged then it's a different story since they're his/her threads. I understand that you want to have things neat and have all the questions and answers in one thread, if the OP doesn't see it that way however, there's not much that can be done about it. For him/her, everything merged into one thread maybe messy and confusing while for you it maybe the exact opposite. Different strokes.

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There's really no telling how the loperamide will respond IMO. Personally I think it's a lot more potent a drug than people give it credit for. I think but I'm not sure if you scan through some of the loperamide threads in OD, there's a handful of people that used it for methadone withdrawals with limited success.

 

[rhun]

Whatever works for you guys, ff it doesn't bother you then it definitely doesn't bother me I mentioned it was because in my experience it's always been frowned upon to post multiple threads on the same/similar topics. I've even gotten my own posts merged way back when and was told regardless if it was a different question to just ask it on the old thread. Thanks for the clarification.

But Venrak did go ahead and close one of the other threads so my main concern has been addressed.. Which was that of course while the OP doesn't have to listen to our suggestions/advice and we can't stop him from his determination to continue abusing methadone at extremely high doses, he shouldn't be allowed to continue to ask the same questions in hopes of getting a response that is against the rules or does not promote harm reduction.

Anyways, regarding the lope it may help with some minor WD symptoms at lower doses... but if he goes into WD from a 500mg methadone habit it will be like taking an advil for a broken back. Since I cannot condone buying other patients' medication my only suggestions are to go to the hospital or see if the methadone clinic will help. Can't be the first time this has happened.

 

[Youshady2]

^ I mentioned this to chromophobia, but the OP has three threads in BDD on methadone at this point.
Could we condense them for simplicity? I've also PMed them in an attempt to help, but they seem more interested in finding out how to get through WD and continuing to buy other patients' methadone doses than getting back on track with their treatment so I don't know how much help we can be of here. They've received excellent information in all three threads. 8)

Also wanted to add that lope is going to be pretty much useless for a 500mg methadone habit.
And the OP is going to need to taper down to at least 40mg but probably 20mg to make any kind of switch to bupe successful.

Your being pretty harsh there buddy ,how do you know what I'm doing with the methadone I bought and how well my treatment is or even why im in treatment ,I have zero meth and 2 weeks to get my bottles i was not gona sit here cold turkeying a high tolerence I bought 5 bottles to get me through 2 weeks and I've been good for 4 days on 2 bottles..so no need to jump to conclusion on me abusing...

 

[Jktm]

I didn't read through the whole thread, but I saw the bit about the buprenorphine, and I pretty sure you're supposed to taper to 30mg before switching to it and that's even at a massive dose of buprenorphine IIRC (and I used to take 16mg/day).

I truly feel for you OP; not that I have any idea what you are going through as I got off of bupe before physical dependence set it (I had a fucked up situation in which I was put on buprenorphine - not to say that opioid addiction isn't a fucked up situation in and of itself. I just went inpatient for psych reasons and they stuck me in the "Behavioral Pain Management" sect instead of a psych sect, telling me it was a psych sect as opposed to a CD for pain patients sect and they took me from 150mg of tramadol a day and worked me up to the dose they give everyone...2 subs/day in 3 divided doses (8mg in morning, 4 at 2pm, 4 at 8pm) which fucked my tolerance hardcore in the 3 weeks I took it after I went home).

As others have said, I don't know if lope will do anything for you, and what massive, massive dose you would have to take. Since you've found out that 80mg will hold you (keep you in partial w/ds) I'd try to stick with your dose of 120 which might help you somewhat now after this ordeal and try to work down from there since you no longer experience cancer pain. Wish I could help you more, but I have no clue how to wrestle a tolerance that massive and I'm not gonna pretend I do. I only speak when I'm fairly certain of what I'm saying. And even still I try to verify this information in some form or fashion.

Don't try to go buy oxy or morphine or anything like that as any conversion from that high of a dose of methadone won't be very accurate without the help of a methadone specialist, and even if the conversion did help, no telling if it would help you. Hell, everything I've found only covers 1000-1200mg morphine/day (20:1; so about 50mg-60mg of methadone/day) and beyond that it says to consult a palliative care/pain specialist. Methadone's potency in comparison to morphine steadily rises as the equivalent dose of morphine rises.

I wish I could help more, but I have to drive to class now. I wish you the best of luck and hope you pull through this. Like rhun said earlier, methadone detox can kill you with doses like these just like alcohol/barbiturate/ghb/benzo detox can. Take care.

 

[rhun]

Your being pretty harsh there buddy ,how do you know what I'm doing with the methadone I bought and how well my treatment is or even why im in treatment ,I have zero meth and 2 weeks to get my bottles i was not gona sit here cold turkeying a high tolerence I bought 5 bottles to get me through 2 weeks and I've been good for 4 days on 2 bottles..so no need to jump to conclusion on me abusing...

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, I am genuinely concerned about your well being. I was the one who said previously not to cold turkey off your medication. However, you ARE abusing your methadone treatment.. you're taking 500mg and buying other patients' doses to support your habit.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^Like I suspected, it is about 10mg. source

I'm trying to find another source.

Also, the 2-4mg thing comes from the fact that suboxone says the ceiling dose for increase in opiate effects is around there.

You can't use an opioid converter or conversion chart to convert methadone to Suboxone because of the ceiling effect of bupe. In addition that converter is for injectable buprenorphine (but either way you can't convert them, conversions for bupe to/from any opioid are only semi-reliable in very low doses, not Suboxone/Subutex-type doses, and conversions to/from methadone and other opioids are also usually unreliable because the effects of methadone vary so much from person to person and greatly depend on how long you've been taking it).

500mg of methadone a day simply cannot be switched to Suboxone. The maximum dose of methadone that can be successfully switched to Suboxone is generally considered somewhere between 20-45mg depending on the person. Most doctors that I know say a person should be down to 25-30mg of methadone before switching to Suboxone. The ceiling dose of sublingual buprenorphine is not 2-4mg. Where does in say that on the Suboxone website?? I've always been told the ceiling is generally considered to be around 30-32mg. The ceiling effect means that above that dose it is not considered to have additional effects. It also means that the effects are nonlinear: 8mg is not twice as strong as 4mg, and 16mg is not twice as strong as 8mg. Unlike methadone, which theoretically has no ceiling effect.

Suboxone is apparently considered to be as effective in the treatment of heroin addiction as moderate doses of methadone (50–70 mg), but that doesn't mean if you're on MMT at 50-70mg you can switch to Suboxone without major discomfort.

 

[Youshady2]

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, I am genuinely concerned about your well being. I was the one who said previously not to cold turkey off your medication. However, you ARE abusing your methadone treatment.. you're taking 500mg and buying other patients' doses to support your habit.

Yea I am guilty, but the reason I posted is for help, I've been on a steady dose of 90 mg every other day since I posted and the only issue I have now Is sleep problems.

 

[Venrak]

You can't use an opioid converter or conversion chart to convert methadone to Suboxone because of the ceiling effect of bupe. In addition that converter is for injectable buprenorphine (but either way you can't convert them, conversions for bupe to/from any opioid are only semi-reliable in very low doses, not Suboxone/Subutex-type doses, and conversions to/from methadone and other opioids are also usually unreliable because the effects of methadone vary so much from person to person and greatly depend on how long you've been taking it).

500mg of methadone a day simply cannot be switched to Suboxone. The maximum dose of methadone that can be successfully switched to Suboxone is generally considered somewhere between 20-45mg depending on the person. Most doctors that I know say a person should be down to 25-30mg of methadone before switching to Suboxone. The ceiling dose of sublingual buprenorphine is not 2-4mg. Where does in say that on the Suboxone website?? I've always been told the ceiling is generally considered to be around 30-32mg. The ceiling effect means that above that dose it is not considered to have additional effects. It also means that the effects are nonlinear: 8mg is not twice as strong as 4mg, and 16mg is not twice as strong as 8mg. Unlike methadone, which theoretically has no ceiling effect.

Suboxone is apparently considered to be as effective in the treatment of heroin addiction as moderate doses of methadone (50–70 mg), but that doesn't mean if you're on MMT at 50-70mg you can switch to Suboxone without major discomfort.

No, I know that the converter isn't reliable for equivalent doses, was just illustrating the high dose that would theoretically be needed if the ceiling wasn't a factor.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

No, I know that the converter isn't reliable for equivalent doses, was just illustrating the high dose that would theoretically be needed if the ceiling wasn't a factor.

I'm really confused about what you even meant in your earlier post

I estimate that equivalency at around 9-10mg. Thought the ceiling was lower...They claim it at 2-4mg on the suboxone website

And then the OP asked if you meant 500mg of methadone would equal just 2-4mg of Suboxone. Which is what I was assuming you meant too, that you estimated a needed dose of 10mg but the Suboxone website said 2-4mg. So maybe that's not what you meant because no way could someone switch from 500mg of methadone to any dose of bupe

Yea I am guilty, but the reason I posted is for help, I've been on a steady dose of 90 mg every other day since I posted and the only issue I have now Is sleep problems.

Wow, that's great, good work getting it down to 90mg.

 

[TAR3]

When I switched - about a decade ago - was from 100 MG methadone to 32 MG subutex - but that was under the direction of a Dr. who was new to Bupe (I was his alpha patient) and didn't know any better...neither did I. He kept me on 32 MG daily for years...it took me a long time to figure what an insanely high dose that was...also made my rapid taper a real bitch.

 

[Blind Melon]

I used to take 195mgs of Methadone a day. I loved it, never, ever wanted to get off of it. Recently I was forced to get off. I cold-turkeyed for a least 4-5 days before starting on Suboxone which was a nightmare. Took at least 2.5 months before the Subs started covering at least half of my WDs.

You need to be careful. Cold Turkeying, what.. 500mg a day? You need to go to a hospital. The state of CA (no clue where you are) will only go up to 195mg a day. If you need more you need to undergo blood tests and other such tests to ensure that your metabolism is that of an alien. There was some one at my clinic taking 300mg a day... That just seems like you'd have King Kong on your back 24/7.

If you come clean to the Methadone clinic you will 100% lose your take homes, possilby even get kicked out because they might find you a liability. I honeslty don't know what to do for the next 2 weeks. You may just have to cop dope. Although at your dose don't even hope to get high, you'll get well at best. I'm sorry to hear about your situation man.

You just can't handle a months worth at a time, you've proven that to yourself. I used to do the same thing. The best thing for you to do is ween down and then only pick up a week at a time.

 

[Youshady2]

Blind melon thanks your def right I gona tell them I can't afford to pay for a month of take homes and only take a week home and try to only drink every other day that way a few times a month ill have a lil treat for myself..