Help Me Break "The Cycle"

[motherofearth]

Hello to all here at TDS,

Some of you may have some recollection when I first began posting here last March. I'd just resolved to apply myself fully in quitting all my hard drug and intravenous use. I posted the story of my use in the Heroin/Opiate megathread and received help from several bluelighters in how I should go about this endeavor (whether to tell my family, rehab, suboxone etc). I ended up divulging all the ugly details to my family (something I thought I'd never do), and I realized I really could not do it on my own. Along the way, I acknowledged my alcoholism as well, initially planning to at least take 3-6 months away from drinking. At the time I was too overwhelmed to consider never drinking again. Relatively early in my inpatient stay I came to decide to not drink again in my life. What's more, I labored to bend myself to AA/NA, as I felt I was desperate enough to try just about anything, plus I thought myself intelligent enough to rationalize my way around the hang-ups I'd always had w/ the program.

My experience in rehab was very positive. To this day I am still in touch w/ friends I made there, and it helped to have a cataclysmic move as a benchmark for the change I hoped to affect in my life. I spent three weeks in treatment and two weeks after I was discharged I went on a four day long violent drinking binge. In short, I was overwhelmed by the level of immersion I'd implemented concerning recovery. I think I bit off more than I could chew regarding 12 Step, and I was dramatically upset w/ myself for plying myself to contour each tenet of the program. I felt I'd betrayed myself and lashed out accordingly. I then entered treatment at the same facility again for three weeks.

After this rodeo, I agreed against my preferences to enter a sober living. I lasted 3 weeks there before I was evicted for drinking while on leave for a family trip. I could have lied and not been asked to leave, kept my rent and security deposit, and so on, but I felt it would undermine everything I'd worked for. In the end I still had my honesty - at the price of $1300, give or take. I'd do it the same today.

Enough background. I'mma try to get to the point. Each time I drank, afterward, I'd tell myself, my friends, and my group I was disappointed in myself, but glad I'd not done hard drugs, as I'd probably not have another recovery in me, as they say. I was sure for over 100 days I'd not monkey around w/ the stuff ever again. There's so much blinding pain I associate w/ that kind of life, it is emotionally pulverizing. Yet in early September I found myself taking morphine again. I didn't even rationalize it, and if I did I can't remember it. I merely put myself around it and let the biology or mechanisms run their course. After chipping w/ morphine for less than a month the imminent day I shoulda feared came to pass where I'd no access to the shit. History doesn't repeat itself; it does often rhyme, however, and I ended up w/ a bag of gear. I chipped for a month, and then I had a habit for close to two months after it. I even allowed myself speedballs on several occasions, by far the most dangerous thing for me, as my heroin use always reaches a pitch, and my old cocaine addiction is easily revamped w/ nominal use.

By December I got myself off heroin and didn't use it again until early January. Truly though, I was using morphine in lieu of skag mostly. I didn't get a habit again after that use b/c I stopped after a few days. Although my morphine use of 200-300 mgs (extended release) every other day persists. Frighteningly, I don't know if I'm physically dependent on the ms contins b/c of the ER and long half life. And to compound the problem, I've used heroin again today.

I wanted to use morphine once a month at most still. Now I'm telling myself I can go back to trying that in mid-June after I've been sober for six months.

^This. I know this is laughably negligent. I'm embarrassed to even come forward here w/ this absurdity. I've demonstrated I'm in the 10% of people not able to ever be light hearted w/ any substance. I guess MoE needs people here to spell it out for him, ha ha. Plus, I'd like to hear any feedback about people who've been in (or are in) a similar situation. What words can you share about finally letting go? Anything I can tack in my head for inspiration or to usher in some reason and sensibility, b/c I'm of a serious deficit for both.

Thanks, hugs & kisses, and to y'all.

 

[motherofearth]

I've actually really been rationalizing the morphine use to a disturbing extent: telling myself I'm actually making better decisions b/c it's not heroin. I perceive myself to be a logical and rational (no pun intended) human being, so frankly I am stricken w/ fear over how easy it is to pull the wool over my eyes at will. I can't fathom how I am capable of deluding myself over the long term like this.

I mean, I'm, like, really scared. Not just over the self-deception, but also of the consequences: the potential of withdrawal has me very anxious, as it's been a while since I've gone more than 48 hours w/o dosing. I hear ms contin ER WD's can take up to 72 hours to begin. Fuuuuuuuuuuuu.....

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

I got an idea for you buddy. You seem to have access to as much MS-Contins as you want right ? In Austria and in Switzerland, they do not use methadone anymore and barely use bupe for opi detox and they their own name for ms-constin of hydromorph contins orally and drop the usage this way. There is apparently a HUGE success in quick detox using that. I'm too tired to google all that for you but people give it a try.

You don't want to end up on methadone like me. Sure it's a low dosage. But it's gonna take an eternity to get rid of. While if i had access to a lot of high dosage ms-contins on the black market instead of dilaudid I would not be where I am now.

 

[motherofearth]

I've tried that before - the first few times I tried to kick heroin. Ultimately, tapering w/ any opiate has proved to be a losing strategy for me, as I just don't have the discipline. If I'm dosing w/ any opioid, I always end up deviating from my planned dosage and getting high. Ms contins are a component of the problem its self. And as far as I can tell right now, I don't have a physical dependence (yet, as stated, this may not be the case). I'm seeking feedback more in the way of getting behind my justifications for my continued "chipping," I guess you could say. Thank you for the suggestion all the same .

As for methadone, even when I had a monstrous dependence on heroin I still never considered methadone. I've only personally known one person to have success w/ it: my cousin. And he had one foot in the grave. It took him a decade to taper off of it, and he is still very shattered from it mentally and health wise. No, methadone would be beyond a last resort for me. I hope it never comes to that.

 

[Pariahprose]

Glad 2 hear u realize u have a problem,but sounds like ur having a hard time beyond that...As for what advice I can offer 2 u about letting go,is 2 let go of the drugs(I know u already know that part) but dont ever let go of the NEGATIVE MEMORIES, and do not romance the "positive" (cant think of a better word,hence the quotes)...The moment u forget where u came from,ur on the way 2 relapse...and each time u relapse and go back 2 that dark place ur rock bottom is getting deeper and deeper and one step closer to jail or prison...I aint tryin 2 b a dick,I am just speaking truth that has been proven time and time again by many addicts...now that my rant is done...

Have u ever heard of Iboga btw? It is a plant that has been used to treat Opiate addiction.It is a very very potent hallucinogen,so I wud recomend seeking out someone with experience with it, DO NOT USE IBOGA ON UR OWN!Just hit up Erowid for more info on it. And if ur really serious about seeking recovery,u will need more than just a 30,60, or even 90 day program 2 increase ur chances of success...At least a six month program,but a yr program wud definatly b better...I personally went 2 a six wk inpatient program followed by a six month high structure half way house...they helped me immensely! Yes, I still struggle...Recently I found myself slipping back into heavy addiction with synthetic marijuana...honestly,if they hadnt pulled it off the shelves I wuda had a much harder time quiting or might not have quit at all...Also,one more tip that helped me, read one chapter in Bible from the book of Proverbs each day...there is a chapter for each day of the month every month...I aint saying 2 take it religiously(if u do,more power 2 ya) but take it as advice each day...there are a lot of good ones that apply 2 addiction and I guarantee that each time u reread a chapter u will get something different out of it and how it applies 2 ur current struggle...need anythin else just PM me...

Pariahprose

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Glad 2 hear u realize u have a problem,but sounds like ur having a hard time beyond that...As for what advice I can offer 2 u about letting go,is 2 let go of the drugs(I know u already know that part) but dont ever let go of the NEGATIVE MEMORIES, and do not romance the "positive" (cant think of a better word,hence the quotes)...The moment u forget where u came from,ur on the way 2 relapse...and each time u relapse and go back 2 that dark place ur rock bottom is getting deeper and deeper and one step closer to jail or prison...I aint tryin 2 b a dick,I am just speaking truth that has been proven time and time again by many addicts...now that my rant is done...

Have u ever heard of Iboga btw? It is a plant that has been used to treat Opiate addiction.It is a very very potent hallucinogen,so I wud recomend seeking out someone with experience with it, DO NOT USE IBOGA ON UR OWN!Just hit up Erowid for more info on it. And if ur really serious about seeking recovery,u will need more than just a 30,60, or even 90 day program 2 increase ur chances of success...At least a six month program,but a yr program wud definatly b better...I personally went 2 a six wk inpatient program followed by a six month high structure half way house...they helped me immensely! Yes, I still struggle...Recently I found myself slipping back into heavy addiction with synthetic marijuana...honestly,if they hadnt pulled it off the shelves I wuda had a much harder time quiting or might not have quit at all...Also,one more tip that helped me, read one chapter in Bible from the book of Proverbs each day...there is a chapter for each day of the month every month...I aint saying 2 take it religiously(if u do,more power 2 ya) but take it as advice each day...there are a lot of good ones that apply 2 addiction and I guarantee that each time u reread a chapter u will get something different out of it and how it applies 2 ur current struggle...need anythin else just PM me...

Pariahprose

<snip>I just wonder could it really reverse a 60mg methadone / daily use ? I don't want OP or me to lose their money for nothing.

Also this :
http://www.heroinhelper.com/sick/detox_nightmares_part_2.shtml

I don't want to give false hopes but HH is usually right on the money. But he also says ibogaine could work for some and not for others. Why couldn't I or OP do it alone anyway ? I don't need some pseudo shaman and all this, I do have will. It took a lot of will to admit to myself I would need methadone to get rid of my 32 to 56mg dilaudid IV addiction. Now I don't want to shoot up anymore, but it makes all other drugs unpleasant other than weed but these in combo just make me even lazier and without any will than methadone.

 

[Pariahprose]

It wudnt b safe to do alone,it wud b no more reckless than what the OP is already doing.Ibogaine is a hallucinogen yes,but it has an excessively long duration(past or on par with LSD if I remember right), extreme hallucinations 2 the point 2 where a person n there right mind wudnt do it recreationally,and it carries the real threat of death if one still has opiates n their system...yes,the start of that initial detox wud b painful,but Ibogaine(Iboga) is said 2 stop it n its tracks...THIS IS A SERIOUS HARM REDUCTION MSG!DO NOT TRY THIS BY YOURSELF! TRY 2 FIND SOMEONE EXPERIENCED OR AT THE VERY MINIMUM A COMPLETLY SOBER TRIP SITTER WHO IS READ UP ON IBOGA AND POSSIBLE COMPLICATIONS,BUT THAT ISNT EVEN REALLY RECOMENDED!
One more note, Ibogaine is not for those who have not tried other more conventional ways to kick their opiate habit,like the OP has seemed 2...if a person goes into an Ibogaine experience thinking they can do it by themselves they are thinking like an addict and do not understand addiction! Ibogaine is for those who are one shot away from death and have no other treatment options left....
Pariahprose

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

I consider myself that, I don't want to be on methadone forever, i'd rather die that continue being on methadone everyday forever.

 

[e_rep]

I'm currently 101 days clean for the first time in over 24 years, and in the last 7 to 8, I was on some form of opiate, whether heroin, or suboxone, going back and forth from high, to detoxing, to high, etc. Being I only have this small amount of time clean, I know I am no expert, but from what I've learned through other people with decades of not using after crazy amounts of abuse, is there is only one way to get and stay clean for the overwhelming majority of people...following a 12 step program to the best of your ability, with all the suggestions. That was the one thing I took from rehab, at the least the biggest thing, and it has proven true for myself. Getting sick from germs is and was always a huge trigger for me to use since I started using. I got sick 2 weeks ago, and had the biggest urge. The ONLY reason I didn't get high, was my involvement in the program, period. I have a service position, I chair a meeting, I have a sponsor, I have a home group in which I met some great people...if I didn't have any of one of them, the likely hood of me using in that time increases 10 fold. If I didn't have any 2 of them, I would have used...I literally yelled "shut up" in my house when I was alone to my brain which was trying so hard to justify getting high, but the thought of losing the clean time I had, and my friends in the program I'd have to face up to, and everything I had worked on since going to treatment....not even to mention I KNOW that I don't want it anymore deep inside, I didn't use. And, I got better. AND, I didn't fuck up going to the gym and have a girl whose 15 years younger then me and damn pretty, flirting with me. And I would have so easily given all that good stuff up, with absolutely no doubt, if I didn't have the program.

Maybe you are one the very, very, very, very few that can do it another way. Maybe you'll find God, maybe you'll just lose the desire for some unknown reason some day, I don't know. But, if all else fails, and you are just sick of your life being the same painful situation day after day, month after month, year after year like mine was, you may want to think about the program.

In rehab, a guy with 20+ years said that for everyone he's seen that followed the program 100%, 100% success rate. For everyone that followed it 50%, 0% success rate, and that really helped me get involved and stay involved and may have saved my life.

Ps: drinking was never my thing, but if the day comes that I feels can handle it, I'm going to go out that night and...find heroin..because I know that will be the next thing I do after the drink hits me and I lose inhibitions, which is why people drink if the first place. If Its difficult for me to make a good desicion to keep my life good while I'm clean, it's impossible that I will under the effects of any mood altering substance...minus caffeine of course.

 

[Pariahprose]

Why couldn't I or OP do it alone anyway ? I DON'T NEED some pseudo shaman and all this, I DO HAVE WILL. It took a lot of will to admit to myself I would need methadone to get rid of my 32 to 56mg dilaudid IV addiction. Now I don't want to shoot up anymore, but it makes all other drugs unpleasant other than weed but these in combo just make me even lazier and without any will than methadone.

Let me preface the start of this by saying I am not being a smart ass,I am just telling the blunt honest truth and am not trying 2 belittle anyone. The things I am about 2 say fall into Addiction 101 and are things that an addict MUST HEAR to advance n their recovery.

First, the words of "I dont need" speaks volumes as to where u are in ur recovery. U didnt need a lot of things(ur habit),but n the end u did end up needing it despite ur efforts and ur "best" decisions. Ur best decisions and ideas are what got u n a place of addiction n the first place,and the thoughts of I dont need are part of that idealogy. When in recovery its important 2 put aside the things and ideas u possesed pre-recovery and listen to new ideas from those who have traveled and are still traveling the road of recovery.

I congratulate u on having the will to admit u need methadone,however,will power will only take u so far...Just as a persons physical strength must eventually give way when being tested,the same can be said about a persons mental will power...AND DONT EVEN SAY THAT UR DIFFERENT THAT YOU WONT BREAK THAT UR WILL POWER IS SOOOO MUCH STRONGER THAN ANYONE ELSES,bc once again,those are toxic thoughts fed 2 u by ur addiction 2 keep u within its chains. Give up ur Will power and admit u are powerless!that is where the real strength lies,not in being able 2 use will power but n being able to use powerlessness,once u admit u have no power over ur drug use and truly mean it,u are already weakening their bonds.

Now that that is done,what have u tried in recovery attempts?Detox? Rehab visits? Excersise? Etc....some ppl have had success with weaning off of methadone with kratom btw,but a rehab is highly recomended 2 increase ur odds of sobriety...

Pariahprose

 

[motherofearth]

Glad 2 hear u realize u have a problem,but sounds like ur having a hard time beyond that...As for what advice I can offer 2 u about letting go,is 2 let go of the drugs(I know u already know that part) but dont ever let go of the NEGATIVE MEMORIES, and do not romance the "positive" (cant think of a better word,hence the quotes)...The moment u forget where u came from,ur on the way 2 relapse...and each time u relapse and go back 2 that dark place ur rock bottom is getting deeper and deeper and one step closer to jail or prison...I aint tryin 2 b a dick,I am just speaking truth that has been proven time and time again by many addicts...now that my rant is done...

Have u ever heard of Iboga btw? It is a plant that has been used to treat Opiate addiction.It is a very very potent hallucinogen,so I wud recomend seeking out someone with experience with it, DO NOT USE IBOGA ON UR OWN!Just hit up Erowid for more info on it. And if ur really serious about seeking recovery,u will need more than just a 30,60, or even 90 day program 2 increase ur chances of success...At least a six month program,but a yr program wud definatly b better...I personally went 2 a six wk inpatient program followed by a six month high structure half way house...they helped me immensely! Yes, I still struggle...Recently I found myself slipping back into heavy addiction with synthetic marijuana...honestly,if they hadnt pulled it off the shelves I wuda had a much harder time quiting or might not have quit at all...Also,one more tip that helped me, read one chapter in Bible from the book of Proverbs each day...there is a chapter for each day of the month every month...I aint saying 2 take it religiously(if u do,more power 2 ya) but take it as advice each day...there are a lot of good ones that apply 2 addiction and I guarantee that each time u reread a chapter u will get something different out of it and how it applies 2 ur current struggle...need anythin else just PM me...

Pariahprose

Thank you for the reply and suggestions. I think what you are saying about hosting a healthy fear of the drug is important. Luckily, my neurology already seems wired to mostly associate my IV use w/ pain and suffering, and it is rare for me to recall the euphoria. Euphoric recall usually isn't my problem. However, romanticizing the subculture is something I'm guilty of now and again, which is morbid in a way, considering the level of pain I associate w/ my addictions. I tend not to send my head to the prospect of prison and death as a deterrent, mainly b/c I don't think it is positive, and usually I can conceive of less negative reasoning for not using.

In terms of hallucinogenic therapy, I'm personally leery of treating my addiction w/ anything from that category of drugs. My experience w/ all hallucinogens, aside from LSD, is one wrought w/ anxiety. What's more is I've never experienced an epiphany or sea change in my perspective like many others do. I've always used these drugs for recreation, and I personally like to seek my enlightenment or transformation in spirit w/ as clear a head as possible. However, I'm not arguing that this Iboga may not be helpful for some. And in terms of the Bible, I was raised Catholic and am familiar w/ much of the Bible. I credit it for a certain portion of my values and ethics, yet I don't refer to it often as I'm quite dismissive of Christianity. Yet, I see what you mean about not approaching it religiously. Sadly, as is the case w/ 12 Step programs, I feel the non-believer is excluded from the full benefits of the doctrines and teachings of religiously and spiritually oriented programs. In essence though, I like the advice. Reading is my primary source of self-betterment. I just don't include the Bible often in my scholastic diet (often).

I also need to repeat that I'm not desperately seeking a way out of active dependence; rather I'm looking for a way to circumvent this cycle which keeps bringing me back to morphine and then heroin.

I'm currently 101 days clean for the first time in over 24 years, and in the last 7 to 8, I was on some form of opiate, whether heroin, or suboxone, going back and forth from high, to detoxing, to high, etc. Being I only have this small amount of time clean, I know I am no expert, but from what I've learned through other people with decades of not using after crazy amounts of abuse, is there is only one way to get and stay clean for the overwhelming majority of people...following a 12 step program to the best of your ability, with all the suggestions. That was the one thing I took from rehab, at the least the biggest thing, and it has proven true for myself. Getting sick from germs is and was always a huge trigger for me to use since I started using. I got sick 2 weeks ago, and had the biggest urge. The ONLY reason I didn't get high, was my involvement in the program, period. I have a service position, I chair a meeting, I have a sponsor, I have a home group in which I met some great people...if I didn't have any of one of them, the likely hood of me using in that time increases 10 fold. If I didn't have any 2 of them, I would have used...I literally yelled "shut up" in my house when I was alone to my brain which was trying so hard to justify getting high, but the thought of losing the clean time I had, and my friends in the program I'd have to face up to, and everything I had worked on since going to treatment....not even to mention I KNOW that I don't want it anymore deep inside, I didn't use. And, I got better. AND, I didn't fuck up going to the gym and have a girl whose 15 years younger then me and damn pretty, flirting with me. And I would have so easily given all that good stuff up, with absolutely no doubt, if I didn't have the program.

Maybe you are one the very, very, very, very few that can do it another way. Maybe you'll find God, maybe you'll just lose the desire for some unknown reason some day, I don't know. But, if all else fails, and you are just sick of your life being the same painful situation day after day, month after month, year after year like mine was, you may want to think about the program.

In rehab, a guy with 20+ years said that for everyone he's seen that followed the program 100%, 100% success rate. For everyone that followed it 50%, 0% success rate, and that really helped me get involved and stay involved and may have saved my life.

Ps: drinking was never my thing, but if the day comes that I feels can handle it, I'm going to go out that night and...find heroin..because I know that will be the next thing I do after the drink hits me and I lose inhibitions, which is why people drink if the first place. If Its difficult for me to make a good desicion to keep my life good while I'm clean, it's impossible that I will under the effects of any mood altering substance...minus caffeine of course.

In my post I tried to have it come through that I did give AA/NA more than a passing consideration. In fact, I would say I gave it 100%. Of course others who look at my subsequent failures can always justify the effectiveness of the program by guessing I only gave it 75%, or something. But I know I gave it my full capacity for almost 6 months. I attended regularly, got a sponsor, worked the steps, took a commitment, volunteered.... I did all the actions, for certain. In term of my will, and surrendering, and so on, I gave my full effort to making it work for me. But I am an individual human being who can't just turn off my values and will as I would a light switch. Time and time again I was left ostensibly depressed over how I as a person accorded to the 12 Step program. I'm a big fan of compromise, but in the end I couldn't carry out the full measures the program asked of me and continue to be a happy person. Furthermore, counting days and having my clean time hover over my head like a guillotine made me very unhappy.

I know 12 Step programs tout their efficacy frequently, but I'm not so sure. I've seen successes, and I've seen failures. The people who succeed outside the program don't have a voice in the program so those attending don't usually hear about different, or more personally tailored ways of triumphing over addiction, b/c, in effect, 12 Step meetings are a bubble of sorts. I don't mean this as a condemnation; but really, it seems natural that people in the program wouldn't venture outside of it to find out people do it in other ways (and they do). If the 12 Steps worked for me, I probably wouldn't be looking to the outside to see how people quite sans the 12 Steps - I'd be satisfied w/ my solution.

12 Step programs ultimately came off as too cocksure of a universal solution for a very personal and particular problem. I say this as I'm making plans to attend a meeting tonight, ha ha. But I go to stay in touch w/ friends, and to keep a sense of community. However, after my experiences, I buy no further into it as of now.

Let me preface the start of this by saying I am not being a smart ass,I am just telling the blunt honest truth and am not trying 2 belittle anyone. The things I am about 2 say fall into Addiction 101 and are things that an addict MUST HEAR to advance n their recovery.

First, the words of "I dont need" speaks volumes as to where u are in ur recovery. U didnt need a lot of things(ur habit),but n the end u did end up needing it despite ur efforts and ur "best" decisions. Ur best decisions and ideas are what got u n a place of addiction n the first place,and the thoughts of I dont need are part of that idealogy. When in recovery its important 2 put aside the things and ideas u possesed pre-recovery and listen to new ideas from those who have traveled and are still traveling the road of recovery.

I congratulate u on having the will to admit u need methadone,however,will power will only take u so far...Just as a persons physical strength must eventually give way when being tested,the same can be said about a persons mental will power...AND DONT EVEN SAY THAT UR DIFFERENT THAT YOU WONT BREAK THAT UR WILL POWER IS SOOOO MUCH STRONGER THAN ANYONE ELSES,bc once again,those are toxic thoughts fed 2 u by ur addiction 2 keep u within its chains. Give up ur Will power and admit u are powerless!that is where the real strength lies,not in being able 2 use will power but n being able to use powerlessness,once u admit u have no power over ur drug use and truly mean it,u are already weakening their bonds.

Now that that is done,what have u tried in recovery attempts?Detox? Rehab visits? Excersise? Etc....some ppl have had success with weaning off of methadone with kratom btw,but a rehab is highly recomended 2 increase ur odds of sobriety...

Pariahprose

And I must address this, b/c I think labeling this Addiction 101 is a bit of a misnomer. A more fitting title would be 12 Step 101. I take serious umbrage w/ the "best thinking" dictum. I've always felt that is there to tear a person down, simply a tool to dismiss the individual will, which seems to be a persona non grata in 12 Step meetings. My worst thinking, fueled by trauma, anxiety, and depression, got me here. To say that was my "best thinking" is to completely dismiss my capabilities and aptitude to ever make better decisions of my own will. I can't think of any statement which is more of a condemnation of the self. This is how I read that piece of AA/NA rhetoric.

What I've said extends to what you've said about will power. This is not classic addiction counseling by a stretch, but another tenet of 12 Step recovery. I know you are addressing THE_REAL_OBLIVION directly, but I want to make sure this isn't being put out here as the universal procedure.

The above are two more facets of what made the 12 Step programs so difficult for me to even chance: the apparent certainty that this is the only way. Again, I understand AA/NA is an echo chamber of sorts, so I get why people demonstrate the program in this way, but it doesn't make it anymore palatable.

I know I've entertained the subject at some length, and this is the last I'll say on it, b/c I'm not currently open to 12 Step recovery as a solution (a point perhaps I should have been clearer on in my original post). Debating its worth is not productive for me or this thread. Having now expanded upon why, I hope we can move all further discussion of the 12 Steps to a pertinent thread or PM's.

Thanks

 

[herbavore]

MoE, you know I lack experience so I won't even attempt to speak to the addiction cycle per se, but I have learned one thing in my life to be true at any age, in any predicament, in any mental rut or repeated self-sabotage: there is something you are not confronting in yourself. There is some pool of fear that is so deep and makes you so vulnerable that you can literally construct your whole life around denying its existence. Maybe it is something as broad as general feelings of inadequacy or failure. Maybe it is something that stems from the abuse you have suffered, maybe it preceded that but was transformed into something even more terrifying as a result of the abuse. And then again, maybe it is not that simple. Maybe it is that plus the fact that you need more than what ordinary life, sober life, gives you.

When I have to admit my own psychological vulnerability to myself it is terrifying. First, it scares me because I am forced to see myself as the root of the problem rather than being able to blame it on any external force. Second, it means I either have to act or embarrass myself to myself by not acting. Acting is terrifying because of the fear of failure and the fear of the unknown. Not acting makes me feel weak and shameful. Easier to live in denial it might seem until you can no longer deny the actual cost and consequences of that thinking (addiction, failed or unhealthy relationships, depression, etc).

If anything getting older finds me even more skilled at denial but, on the plus side, I am also far more courageous and willing to confront myself. I do it through writing a lot; I don't start with a plan or even a subject--I just put the pen on the page and start writing. I had a great writing teacher a couple of years ago that taught us to focus our writing on what we were most terrified to say out loud. We didn't have to share it. In fact, some people wrote and then destroyed the writing right then and there. I learned so much about tapping into my subconscious and about the power of facing fears fearlessly. It has yielded great benefits in my life. You are a very articulate and perceptive writer. Do you use writing as a tool at all?

Big hugs and love to you. You are smart and brave and compassionate. I know it isn't always enough but those three things together give you some pretty solid ground to stand on. I have faith in you.

 

[nervousone]

MoE, you know I lack experience so I won't even attempt to speak to the addiction cycle per se, but I have learned one thing in my life to be true at any age, in any predicament, in any mental rut or repeated self-sabotage: there is something you are not confronting in yourself. There is some pool of fear that is so deep and makes you so vulnerable that you can literally construct your whole life around denying its existence. Maybe it is something as broad as general feelings of inadequacy or failure. Maybe it is something that stems from the abuse you have suffered, maybe it preceded that but was transformed into something even more terrifying as a result of the abuse. And then again, maybe it is not that simple. Maybe it is that plus the fact that you need more than what ordinary life, sober life, gives you.

this hit the nail on the head. try to sit back and thing about this for awhile.

 

[motherofearth]

MoE, you know I lack experience so I won't even attempt to speak to the addiction cycle per se, but I have learned one thing in my life to be true at any age, in any predicament, in any mental rut or repeated self-sabotage: there is something you are not confronting in yourself. There is some pool of fear that is so deep and makes you so vulnerable that you can literally construct your whole life around denying its existence. Maybe it is something as broad as general feelings of inadequacy or failure. Maybe it is something that stems from the abuse you have suffered, maybe it preceded that but was transformed into something even more terrifying as a result of the abuse. And then again, maybe it is not that simple. Maybe it is that plus the fact that you need more than what ordinary life, sober life, gives you.

When I have to admit my own psychological vulnerability to myself it is terrifying. First, it scares me because I am forced to see myself as the root of the problem rather than being able to blame it on any external force. Second, it means I either have to act or embarrass myself to myself by not acting. Acting is terrifying because of the fear of failure and the fear of the unknown. Not acting makes me feel weak and shameful. Easier to live in denial it might seem until you can no longer deny the actual cost and consequences of that thinking (addiction, failed or unhealthy relationships, depression, etc).

If anything getting older finds me even more skilled at denial but, on the plus side, I am also far more courageous and willing to confront myself. I do it through writing a lot; I don't start with a plan or even a subject--I just put the pen on the page and start writing. I had a great writing teacher a couple of years ago that taught us to focus our writing on what we were most terrified to say out loud. We didn't have to share it. In fact, some people wrote and then destroyed the writing right then and there. I learned so much about tapping into my subconscious and about the power of facing fears fearlessly. It has yielded great benefits in my life. You are a very articulate and perceptive writer. Do you use writing as a tool at all?

Big hugs and love to you. You are smart and brave and compassionate. I know it isn't always enough but those three things together give you some pretty solid ground to stand on. I have faith in you.

Herbavore , thank you for taking some time to give me your always phenomenal feedback. Ha ha, I apologize b/c I'm going to stifle the urge I frequently have to praise after reading one of your posts . In this case, I think your self-identified disadvantage (lacking [personal?] experience w/ addiction) is in fact to my benefit: usually when those w/ experience read a thread of this nature a bulk of the responses apply to the physiological side of addiction as opposed to the sorting the psychological aspects at play. This is often true of myself when I'm on the feedback side of the thread. I'm happy you addressed my primary issue: the emotionally-sustained cycle mentioned in the title. I believe you are correct to a degree about me needing to confront something within myself. Ha ha, I was going to say: the problem now is (and quite a problem at that!) identifying this something.... although, instead I believe I just recalled it (or a big part of it) - I don't love myself. I lack respect for who I am, and it causes me to put a lower value on my health and life. It also puts me to chase and results in escapism via drug and alcohol abuse (among other activities carrying societal stigmatization). I think the most important things are for me to 1) start being more honest w/ myself, and 2) under no circumstances break my code of ethic/morality (ambitious, yes, but I need to aim high). I'll add: reclaim my professional life as a third - inertia is exacting an unprecedented toll upon me.

For me, taking the most simplest of actions (job applications, meeting w/ my department at the university, quitting cigarettes) to better my life always seems so daunting. I share your fear of failure and it effectively and all too often stymies progress for me. This is why it has taken so long for me to actually say the words "I'm going to quit smoking." Furthermore, if part of me knows I don't want to do something, I'll avoid declarations, as they make it all more real.

The last paragraph touches on how I feel about writing. I've always considered myself a proficient writer, yet I've always skulked around the edge of making anything out of it. I can't even deliver a poem I wrote some months ago to a friend for her birthday b/c no matter what her reaction I will doubt myself. Also, I dedicate so much time to reading, a source of growth, escape, inspiration, and sheer elation for me.... but not catharsis, as you seemed to describe in your post. I vow each year to write more, even if it is just a journal every other day, every three days eve; as usual, I fall short in the execution . At my worst, I tell myself I'm a naive and ignorant brat who will only expose himself w/ any kind of actual undertaking.

I hope you know how much perspective your post granted me. I almost feel like I can start compiling ideas to put into action. And thank you for the lovely compliments included at the bottom (While I'm no coward, and I've been accused of many things in my life, brave has never been one of them).

 

[DrinksWithEvil]

Moe I'm in your shoes but I'm 4 months into that relapse and it's scary I really think methadone is my only chance I've been to 8 rehabs and just can't seem to kick the habit. I I'm at a point if I don't get clean in like two weeks I' ll be homeless again for sure. Shits depressing. I hate it

 

[motherofearth]

Moe I'm in your shoes but I'm 4 months into that relapse and it's scary I really think methadone is my only chance I've been to 8 rehabs and just can't seem to kick the habit. I I'm at a point if I don't get clean in like two weeks I' ll be homeless again for sure. Shits depressing. I hate it

DWE, this is one instance where I wish people had less in common w/ me I know you've tried a lot of ways to quit, and nothing's took. Plus, you have external circumstances (a living situation) bearing down on you. Would your roommates still give you the boot if you tested positive for methadone? If I were in their situation it would be dicey, and if they know anything about the 'done I could see them tripping on you. Isn't it your uncle's place, or something like that?

In any case, I'm sorry to hear your situation's brought you to the point of considering methadone. You'll need to go to the clinic everyday for your dose. What's more (and you may not mind this one), methadone is really sedating. It nods me out absolutely more frequently than heroin does. It's kinda like doing a shot when you've been up for a few days. I've never taken it long term, however, and I'm sure as they taper you down the high won't last. Hard as a motherfucker to kick, it is. Anyone I know who's experienced the kick says hands down they'd rather a heroin kick any day. I don't know about all that talk about it getting in your bone marrow, sounds like junkie gossip, but for me, someone who is reticent over taking suboxone for more than 5 days, it is just too frightening of a gamble.

I can't remember from your thread if you're at the point of getting sick or not, but if not, you may end up regretting MMT. You may regret it either way. Or it may be your saving grace. As I've said, I've known far too many people who've gone this route and only one who's had success.

I wish you luck, man, and I hope you can clinch your habit so you aren't up in Skid Row once more

 

[mindsnare]

Hey motherofearth
Firstly I just hope that you are aware of how far you have come. Just acknowledging your problem and seeking help is huge and I really trust that you are proud of the steps you have taken.
I have to admit I am not as qualified to give the advice you need but I have had some experience with the cycle.
One thing that has always helped is to 'never give up giving up'. It's so cliche, but if you take it for what it is then you can always hold out hope.
Alsoyou mentioned how to know you are going to make the complete break, well I think only you vcan know in your heart if hearts that you are at that place.if you can say to yourself, I'm so fed up with the cycle, the bullshit and the pain, I'm ready to face the world without the drugs, this is it. I will never again drink or touch this stuff.
I'm sorry to say (i hope its not too harsh) but I believe as long as you are entertaining thoughts of using once a month, you probably aren't quite there. You have to be able to be honestly at that point where you you are so over it that the thought of using just is not an option. If you just do not even give yourself the option then it does not exis you do day to de bangs on about hobbies, exercise, etc but if youyou are unemployed or bored then you have so muchme to entertain the cravings.
AAnd most importantly as herbavore said the emotional side. I guess its all so entwined that you need a multi faceted approach. But I believe if you start introducing postivity to your life, through( exercise, socialising, tudying, going to gigs, walking on the beach, watching clouds, gardening, reading, playing cards, making love, picking your nose, whatever your deal is) then it starts to push the negativety out.
Good luck,
I'm so sorry if this old shit rehashed, I hppe you can get something from it, I ramble too much sometimes!

Please never give up.
Stay strong, much love to you.

 

[motherofearth]

exercise, socialising, tudying, going to gigs, walking on the beach, watching clouds, gardening, reading, playing cards, making love, picking your nose, whatever your deal is

I loves picking my nose!

 

[e_rep]

....

Ok man, I am not going to or try to talk to you about using a program, but I am going to call you on what I perceive as bullshit and there are a few things I need to clear up, mostly because of my fear that someone may come into this thread, read your post, and dismiss NA when it may help them. And you know, I don't feel like pussy footing it; this isn't a meeting, and you're not even a member, so I don't have to be nice. You made some generalizations about NA in a way like is doesn't work for anyone, or your odds are just as good on your own. First, I did say twice how you may be one of the very, very few who finds another way, and, how the overwhelming majority of people can not stop without the 12 steps, meaning there still are some that do. And, I kept the post entirely from my perspective, just saying what has been working for me, and only said you may want to give it a shot. You decided to respond talking it down, so I'm gonna let you know.

You mention that you gave it your full capacity, which I would take as you think 100%, then you say that someone in the program would say 75%. That "someone" does not exist. It was the voice in your head that told you that you gave it 75% by NA standards, so lets be honest, you even feel you gave it 75%. And probably less then that, I'm gathering. I have no idea what you mean that working the program would mean you would "turn off your values?" You're shooting dope, but working a program that may enable you to stop it, may compromise your values? "Will" I understand, but values? Personally, clean time means nothing to me, and is not going to stop me from using. That is the last thing in the program I'm worried about fucking up, which I've shared at meetings, so I can't help but wonder why it felt like a guillotine to you, but I can make an assumption by what I read in your first post. You want to use again successfully and knew you were going to use again, but I'll get back to that. So who are these people that have stopped shooting heroin successfully after abusing it that you claim are "out there"? Do you know any? Because I don't. I know there are a few because there are exceptions to every rule, but it's not like there's a "Didn't work the 12 steps but quit anyway" group to go to, to find out. 12 steps meetings are a bubble of sorts? Again, I have no idea what you mean. NA or AA are in place by addicts/alcoholics for addicts/alcoholics. There is no perfect system, but through years of effort and work by the members, they are doing the best they can. It says in the literature that not every one who follows the program, even 100%, is a guarantee, but they try to make it for the majority of people who come to have the best shot. Maybe there were some aspects, like giving up all intoxicants which I can't help but feel you never wanted to do in the first place, which turned you off, but that is on you, not the program. They just give suggestions, not demands.

You mention you were going to a meeting that night to meet up with some friends...are they clean? Are they using the program to stay clean? Why not bring up this topic to them?

All that aside, if you honestly think you're going to come here and someone is going to post some magic words that are going to flip a switch in your brain that is going to let you resist the urges your brain is going to feel after abusing one of the most addictive drugs known to mankind, after administering it though injection no less, I think it's safe to say with certainty you're going to be disappointed. And if at 6 months clean you were unhappy, but not as unhappy as you are repeating this cycle you claim you want to break, you may just simply not be ready yet. For me, the pain was so great, I would have done ANYTHING to stop it, and I'm giving it the best shot I can.

So, you want to be able to use opiates after 6 months clean. Here is something I learned way before NA..once you quit a substance for a period of time, the second you put it in your body again, it feels like you never left. And I'm talking about weed, which is not one of the most addictive substances known to mankind. But do not take my word for it, in the unlikely chance you're going to get 6 months clean doing....whatever it is you plan on doing, go out and use and find out for yourself. I mean, you start a thread "help me break the cycle", in which the cycle always starts with you using, and every time it leads you somewhere you don't want to go, but, you want to be able to eventually be able to start the cycle again, but not let it runs it's course. How many times has that worked out so far? Do you really need advice on this one?

If there is anything I'm trying to convey, it truly, and I really, really mean this; it's not to stop using. I'm saying stop kidding yourself. If you are not ready to stop using yet, stop worrying about it and use to the best of your ability. Just be honest with yourself about it. Breaking the cycle means not starting the cycle! That's it. How ever you choose to stop that first part of the cycle, either chose it, or accept you're not ready to break the cycle. Complicate it all you want, but it's pretty simple. I do wish you the best, and if you don't mind, during the next moment of silence for the still sick and suffering addict, I will keep you in my thoughts.

 

[fifleman]

I will be pulling e_rep's soapbox down later this morning Good experience points everyone. Herbavore, will be trying the subconscious writing activity. I do enjoy writing.

For me MoE, I had to make a conscious decision to turn my life and my will back over to the care of, well, me. Today, I have enough wisdom through my "unconscious" years that I know what I am doing and where I will be headed when I drink or use. There are no alternative using or drinking patterns that have allowed me a successful, content, or balanced life. And believe me, I have tried.

I didn't get "sober" last time. I changed my life and sobriety came with it. I consciously made a decision to correct my path so that it would be sustainable for me. And for me, sustenance begins with sobriety. From there, sustenance seeps into all other areas of my life: my overall health, my body and mind, my relationships, my job, my hobbies. It allows a clear-minded me to see those little areas that make up my entire life with clarity. A clear mind is absolutely essential for me to exist and I consider it synonymous with my sobriety. Drugs and alcohol do nothing but muddle my mind and my ability to sustain life.

I used to over-analyze AA and any "treatment" or "sobriety" centered activity/group. It would be an absolute job to convince myself that someone said something I could use. I knew everything; I just hadn't taught them yet I nit-picked at what I didn't like instead of finding what did. This latter statement was bigger than I thought; "taking what I can use".

That's what is most important to me today. I made that decision to become abstinent and then I decided I was going to find what works for me. I read a lot into Buddhism and it emphasizes the Middle Way. This means not one extreme or the other, but rather a middle path that works for me and is in balance. This is imperative in my recovery.

I attend AA meetings, SMART Recovery meetings, have a counselor I see once a week (on my free will), and have another counselor that's developed over the years as a friend. I have numerous other sober friends who I am engaged in a real relationship with, not just bonded by sobriety. When I made that decision, I had this absolute wealth of knowledge and resources I have been gathering over the years. I knew exactly who and what I wanted to be in contact with because they fit me. All of these years I kept having people's suggestions for sobriety thrown my way and would haphazardly walk into them, only to come out saying "I still ain't happy, I'm going to grab a beer and we'll pick up after I get bad again." I didn't take my life by the reins yet alone my recovery. I have going what I want to have going right now (recovery-wise) and the best thing is that I am in control of my actions and am sober. Life is another subject.

Bottoming out is not an event. It's a decision. I had a lot of really shitty events in six years of heavy drinking/using. The only decision made was to use more to cover up my shame. However, when I decided to change my life, I knew exactly what I was doing. I was mentally bottoming out because I'd had enough. I told myself, if not now, when? There is no better time than now to make a decision and build a life of sustenance. I won't be happy every day, but along with sustenance comes contentment for me. This is where I am. Decide & sustain. The theme for me today