Help! Few questions about WDs. Trying t kick it for good.

[Etolk92]

Hello all this is my first post, im a long time browser of blue light so i decided to make an account.

Basically im from nyc and have been using opiates for 3 year (roxys for the first 2 and heroin for the last year) i have a very very high tolerance and i get pretty good dope, id say maybe a 8/10. I usually IV 2-2.5 bundles at a time, and have done as many as 15 bundles in one night. This heavy tolerance is from years of doing opiates with only 1 long term break (5 months). Ive ODed twice and lately i dont even enjoy this drug anymore. Ive sold everything i had to maintain my habit and am at rock bottom so im here for help.

Everytime i try to quit i basically do a shot at 11 pm of my "last day" of getting high and the next day is fine. I smoke a lot of pot, take a xanax around 8 pm when the WDs start and i am able to sleep for aprox 8 hours. The next day when i wake up (day 2 or 36 hours clean) i yawn like crazy and sneeze 6 times in a row every 5 minutes. Ive done some research and this is from not enough oxygen going to my brain, i think. I take a suboxone after forcing down some food or drinking an ensure. For some reason after my first dose of suboxone i start going crazy. I start dripping sweat fom my armpits, i get extreme restless legs, my back feels like its toing to jump out through my stomache i get extremely nautious, bla bla extreme WDs. When i was in rehab they gave my suboxone a few times as far as i can remember, and i asked them to switch me over to subutex because you can swallow subutex as a pill.

My 2 biggest questions are, am i taking the suboxone too early because of my high doses (i know im in WDs because of signs i.e. diahria, yawning, resless legs etc.) or is it possible i have a negative reaction to it? Or does the first dose of bupe normally make you nautious and start the process of getting this poison out of your body? And the second question is, is there anything to stop the yawning and sneezing that i can buy in a pharmacy?

Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading, i know it was a little long. - E.

 

[Mehm]

Sounds like you're completely fucked. The good news is there are many people who were just like you that now lead happy, sober lives. I would pray for the help you need. Pray to god you don't die because that is where your life is headed.

 

[Etolk92]

Sounds like you're completely fucked. The good news is there are many people who were just like you that now lead happy, sober lives. I would pray for the help you need. Pray to god you don't die because that is where your life is headed.

So instead of giving ANY helpful advice, you tell me something i already know and came on here to get advice for. Thanks, very helpful!

 

[feralkitten]

I don't know enough about this first hand to say for sure, but if you google "suboxone precipitated withdrawals" there's a lot of stuff to explain what's probably going on.

(I'm not trying to send you off, I just feel like I don't have the knowledge/experience to explain it in my own words). Welcome though, and hope this helps.

 

[Mehm]

My advice is to pray.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I'm going to move this to Other Drugs for you because they deal more with the physical side of things like Suboxone. Maybe you'll get more replies there as there are a lot of people experienced with Suboxone who post there.

Sober Living -> Other Drugs

 

[Morphling]

Christ Jesus, you can do 15 BUNDLES in one day? Hate to have to tell you, but no amount of bupe is going to hold you with that habit, you're going to have to either cold turkey it or do a methadone taper

 

[PantyRaid]

First off, subutex is taken the same way ss suboxone (sublingually). I believe the reasoning behind this is that it is absorbed quickly into the large vein under the very thin skin under your tongue, much faster than by swallowing. There are a couple possibilities for the withdrawal, which sounds to me like its just about identical to my normal withdrawals - the more you use and the longer youve used for the more severe the wds are. The first would be what you mentioned - precipitated wds. The other option (which i actually am inclined to believe is the more likely one) would be that you simply havent taken enough to properly account for your habit. Both times ive been in rehab they dosed everyone the same - a half a pill one to three times a day or as needed for up to five days, however whenever ive had it prescribed ive been instructed to take the most on the first day - up to four 8mg pills or strips (im pretty sure 5 is where the 'ceiling effect' begins) and then one less the next day, and one pill each day after that for a max of 5 (maybe 6) days or until you feel you dont need any more.

Personally i try to take as little as i possibly can without being in total misery (unless you plan on being on maintenance in which case id still try to keep the dosage as low as i could), and i find at least personally it doesnt matter how much i take, im never totally comfortable (which i guess is to be expected).

In short, if i were you id still try to wait a bit longer just in case you are taking it too early (even though it doesnt really sound like you are), maybe wait to take it until the sweating and restless legs etc start on their own, then take one full 8 mg pill and wait a couple hours. If after about 2 or 3 hours its still really bad take another half or full pill and repeat the same process over for up to 4 pills total. Then do the same every day after that, trying to keep to the bare minimum and only for up to 5 days if at all possible (i try to only do 2 or 3 days and stick out the rest in relative misery).

I hope this helps you, i know how shitty it can be, especially with a big habit but i wish you luck!

 

[laCster]

Hello all this is my first post, im a long time browser of blue light so i decided to make an account.

Basically im from nyc and have been using opiates for 3 year (roxys for the first 2 and heroin for the last year) i have a very very high tolerance and i get pretty good dope, id say maybe a 8/10. I usually IV 2-2.5 bundles at a time, and have done as many as 15 bundles in one night. This heavy tolerance is from years of doing opiates with only 1 long term break (5 months). Ive ODed twice and lately i dont even enjoy this drug anymore. Ive sold everything i had to maintain my habit and am at rock bottom so im here for help.

Everytime i try to quit i basically do a shot at 11 pm of my "last day" of getting high and the next day is fine. I smoke a lot of pot, take a xanax around 8 pm when the WDs start and i am able to sleep for aprox 8 hours. The next day when i wake up (day 2 or 36 hours clean) i yawn like crazy and sneeze 6 times in a row every 5 minutes. Ive done some research and this is from not enough oxygen going to my brain, i think. I take a suboxone after forcing down some food or drinking an ensure. For some reason after my first dose of suboxone i start going crazy. I start dripping sweat fom my armpits, i get extreme restless legs, my back feels like its toing to jump out through my stomache i get extremely nautious, bla bla extreme WDs. When i was in rehab they gave my suboxone a few times as far as i can remember, and i asked them to switch me over to subutex because you can swallow subutex as a pill.

My 2 biggest questions are, am i taking the suboxone too early because of my high doses (i know im in WDs because of signs i.e. diahria, yawning, resless legs etc.) or is it possible i have a negative reaction to it? Or does the first dose of bupe normally make you nautious and start the process of getting this poison out of your body? And the second question is, is there anything to stop the yawning and sneezing that i can buy in a pharmacy?

Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading, i know it was a little long. - E.

umm first off, you shoot up 2-3 GRAMS in one shot? you must be getting some shitty dope dude, that is fucking ridiculous. that means even if it was shitty and like 30-50% pure, you would still intake 1-2grams of actual heroin without the cut. that is a fucking lot man.. like seirously, i thik you are lieing or u have a type.

anyways, it sounds like you are taking your suboxone WAYY to early, especially because you sad you are using massive amounts. you do know that it you need to wait 36-48hrs AFTER you cme down on the heroin and it wears off. like if you did a shot at 11pm, you will come down after 6-12hrs and be down completely at baseline, then it is another 6-12hrs for withdrawal kicks in, once WD kicks in then you wait 24-48 hrs of being in WD to dose with suboxone again.

some people are different yah know? i can take a full agonist like oxycodone the night before, and shoot a fat shot of bupre the next day and be high. oxy is very short lived for me though, only lasts 1-3hrs, whereas some good boy lasted 6-8 hrs, and by the 12-14hr mark i started to feel withdrawal. so if i were you i would wait 48hrs from 7am (8hrs after 11), so around 12pm-3pm ( which is about ~60hrs since your last dose of boy)

ALSO, how much suboxone are you taking at once, what type of bupre do you have (suboxone pills, subutex, sub strips, patches, ect...)? how much bupre do you take when you want to get out of withdrwal? and how do you take your subs (snort, swallow, SL, IV, plugg?)

i hav ebeen on suoxone for 12 monrhs, started at 16mgs and now i am now at 1>mg a day (less than 1mg a day), but that is IV use. if i were you, i would try to snort the pills or pug the strips as they are much better ROAs, better BA and hit on quicker, ect.. you only need avery tiny bit dude, buprenorphine is very strong!!! i think you should be held by 0.75-1.00mg (nasal) three tmes a day.... you could be taking too much sub dude. i got soo sick whn i took 16mg even with a pretty hefty toleranceand it makesme feel like shit on high doses. low doses are the way to g

i seirously take about 4 IV bupre shots a day of 0.05-0.20mg of bupr, that int even a total of a 1mg, and somestmes i feel better when i dont take large doses above 4-6mg

 

[Deadhead420]

I hope when you say "bundle" you mean a little bag with ~100mg of powder or less in it... but I fear you mean the more commonly accepted use that a bundle = 10 bags.

If the latter is true, you're in for a ride. First off, Suboxone = Subutex in terms of affects. They're both taken sublignualy. Only difference is Suboxone has a little bit of Nalaxone in it BUT it's a small dose, naloxone is barely active unless IV'd, and above all buprenorphine has a higher affinity than naloxone essentially "canceling it out" even if you were to IV.

The issue you're having is that buprenorphine itself will cause precipitated withdrawals by itself. If all you're still getting a full night's sleep and your main complaint is yawning, you're taking it way too early. Coming off that high amount, you need to wait until you're feeling full blown withdrawals, nausea, vomiting, restless legs, insomnia, the whole nine yards. Even then, there's no gaurentee Suboxone will hold you since after a certain point more Suboxone doesn't do anything more for you.

I always recommend Suboxone over methadone. Suboxone helped get me clean but I had a much smaller habit. In your case though, maybe try Suboxone first but if that doesn't work look into a methadone program or a professional detox program. Usually, you can cold turkey opiates at home but with large habits like yours, medical supervision may be necessary. I knew a guy in rehab for example that had opiate withdrawals so bad he had to be taken by ambulance from the rehab to the hospital and be given IV fluids because he was so dehydrated because he couldn't keep anything down.

 

[Etolk92]

No im not lieing, i switched over from 30 roxycodone at a time to 10 bags of china white, althought the whole bundle put on a scale comes out to .7G so every bag has ~.07G but its the best dope ive tried in brooklyn and from what i hear NJ/NY has he best dope in our country. I feel withdrawels aprox 18 hours from my last dose and give in to suboxone at aprox double that time (36h) i guess ill hold out to 60 hours this time and if it throws me into percip wd again im going cold turkey. Since the last 3 times i relapsed, ive relapsed 2 hours after taking subs because of the percip wds then i think it might be doing me more harm then good.

 

[Etolk92]

Im not saying i do 15 buns daily, im saying ive had binges like that where i put a .1 of coke and 2 buns in a cap mix it u and speedball that shit, and once i speedball theres no holding me back ill keep going until i dont have a dollar in my wallet, and the atm wont let me withdraw more money.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

If your habit really is that big, suboxone is not going to help you. It only works up to the point where 30-50mg's of methadone would keep you well. So if you would need more methadone (which you definitely would with your habit) then suboxone will not help you. It has a ceiling effect. So in cases like this, people either ween down their H usage (very hard) or get on the proper high dose of methadone, taper down to below 30mg's, and then hop over to the suboxone.

 

[Deadhead420]

ive relapsed 2 hours after taking subs because of the percip wds then i think it might be doing me more harm then good.

How much Suboxone are you taking? The amount you would need to hold over a habit as large as yours should block other opiates. Although you probably want to start with a smaller dose at first just as a test to make sure it won't throw you into precipitated withdrawals.

If your habit really is that big, suboxone is not going to help you. It only works up to the point where 30-50mg's of methadone would keep you well. So if you would need more methadone (which you definitely would with your habit) then suboxone will not help you. It has a ceiling effect. So in cases like this, people either ween down their H usage (very hard) or get on the proper high dose of methadone, taper down to below 30mg's, and then hop over to the suboxone.

From my experience from being prescribed Suboxone, it'll work for heavier users than 30-50mg methadone. I was an IV user of Dilaudid, morphine, oxycodone, whatever I could get my hands on... 3 shots a day minimum to keep me well. Averaged probably 24mg of IV Dialudid or maybe 100mg oxycodone a day. Now, that's not shit compared to OPs tolerance and there's a good chance Suboxone won't work for him but I only needed 4mg a day of Suboxone max and was able to taper that down to 2mg fairly quickly (after that the taper got a little more difficult so I took it slow and eventually got off all together.) My doctor prescribed up to 24mg a day of Suboxone to heavier users though.

Another important thing to note is that it's extremely difficult to switch from methadone to Suboxone because methadone has such a long half life. You'd have to wait a week or more in some cases before you could take your first dose of Suboxone because of that. It's a lot easier to get on Suboxone when you're coming straight from dope if you can.

 

[PantyRaid]

No im not lieing, i switched over from 30 roxycodone at a time to 10 bags of china white, althought the whole bundle put on a scale comes out to .7G so every bag has ~.07G but its the best dope ive tried in brooklyn and from what i hear NJ/NY has he best dope in our country. I feel withdrawels aprox 18 hours from my last dose and give in to suboxone at aprox double that time (36h) i guess ill hold out to 60 hours this time and if it throws me into percip wd again im going cold turkey. Since the last 3 times i relapsed, ive relapsed 2 hours after taking subs because of the percip wds then i think it might be doing me more harm then good.

yeah so it sounds like youre not taking enough? as deadhead said, buprenorphine is in itself a blocker (forget about the naloxone part, thats just to discourage injection and it doesnt even do a very good job of that), i have had a similar problem myself - took some subs hoping to take the sick off, didnt do anything at all for me, then my connect finally came through and id do a shot and nothing would happen. really frustrating anyway, even though 36 hours should be plenty of time (which is why in my first post i assumed the problem was the amount of buprenorphine and not precipitated wds) the more i think about it the more i think you should definitely wait longer, as someone else mentioned if yawning and sneezing are the worst of your problems then you need to wait. try to wait as long as you possibly can, you want to already have the restless legs, cold sweats, back and muscle pain, nausea, etc to have kicked in before you take it. if its been longer than 36 hours dont even pay attention to how long its been, focus solely on how youre feeling (and do this honestly - sometimes when im sick i tend to get nervous and start looking for symptoms, and they show right up, but if i just try to relax as much as possible and distract myself with anything i can then i can hold out a great deal longer before its just total misery). then when you do take it, take it like i described earlier - take a full 8 mgs (one 8mg pill or four 2mg pills) and then wait for a few hours to see how you feel. then somewhere between 2 and 4 hours later if you still feel horrible take another one (dont bother trying to feel great, at least in my experience its not going to happen) and then repeat for up to 4 pills total. then the next day drop it down by one pill and then the next couple days after that only take 1 or 2 pills (again whatever the least you can manage with is).

if this method is not working for you for whatever reason then id have to agree with everybody else - methadone is worth a shot. however i have seen some VERY intense habits successfully detoxed with buprenorphine, one who was doing between 1 and 3 gs of raw daily (dealer's habit). it all depends on how motivated you are and your personal metabolism or what have you. it works for some, it doesnt work for others. how it is with anything, really.

again, good luck, and if i may add - go into this whole thing with as much optimism as you can, i can not say enough for how much your outlook will effect all of this. there are even medical studies done on this very subject. i can personally tell you that whenever i have gone into this with a negative attitude thinking it wouldnt help me at all, it didnt. however when i resigned myself to the fact that i was going to be sick either way and this way i could at least have some relief, it went so much more smoothly. so your attitude really is a huge part of it. i know its hard, but try to think about it in those terms - youre either going to be horribly violently miserably sick, or you can take the subs and have that pain significantly blunted. i hope for the best for you

 

[Etolk92]

Thank you for your answers and intention to help. Dont get me wrong yawning and sneezing were just the beggining of the WDs, i had diahria, rls, sweats, and after i threw up green stomache acids is when i took the sub so i would say i was in light to moderate WDs. This time im going to wait until im shaking violently and am unable to sit/ stand for more then a minute at a time. Im doing my last 2 bundles at midnight tonight, so wish me luck in the next 48-72 hours, im really hoping the bupe will work since i refuse to take methadone due to some of the horror stories i have heard. I will post the results in 2-3 days if anyone is interested.

 

[XThexXTank]

Yo man I believe ya cuz its very possible if ya got the $ to fund that sorta habit an addiction. Ima tell ya that I dnt think anythin over a sub strip is gonna help ya with withdraws after yer withdrawin if I don't do nothin than ya gotta switch over to methadone (I've never done it an won't so I can't give ya any advice on that) go back to pills an work a taper on them (yah bad advice but the cost of em has always helped me to stay in check from use).

Back when I was shootn a few buns a day just to stay high all day long I can tell ya that an 8mg sub worked for me. Idk bout you though cuz yer diffrnt. I have. Never gotten that high in my use an I can say withdrawin from 450mg oxy a strip should be enough to help. If not that check into methadone or detox an rehab or gtfo of nyc move down south where there ain't nothin an go cold turkey. I'm on my second attempt now at cold turkey currently day 2 almost into day 3 an gettn a bit better. Last time I only lasted a fuckkin day. I feel ya man stay strong an fuck that shit ya don't need it controllin ya life.

 

[adrienne32]

Oh i know, the sneezing and the yawning and the watering of the eyes are soooo annoying!!! I really do believe that the suboxone was taken wrong cuz what i've heard if you take too early it can send you into the most terrible withdrawals you could ever experience. I was going to recommend getting ahold of like 7 suboxone and wean yourself down like 2 the first day, 1 and half the second day, 1 and 1 quarter the next day and so on and so forth until you're completely out. But I have a few other suggestions too, If you've absolutely have hit rock bottom and are defintely ready to quit there are a few things that can help the most common withdrawals. I don't know about you but when I withdrawal I absolutely cannot sleep and get horrible anxiety at night, and it seems like when i'm withdrawling a lot of built up liquids are released outta the body. When I quit opiates I lose about 15 pounds in water weight. So what i was saying i would be literally getting up to pee every 10 mins, something that is strong enough to get you through the 'not being able to sleep' when you're use to just nodding out and going to sleep is to get ahold of some seroquel. But be careful with this stuff, this is some strong strong shit! Start out with taking 50mgs and if that doesn't put you to sleep then take another and etc, but give it time to kick it b/c if you take too much, i'm not kidding you, you will absolutely be stuck to the bed and not be able to walk. I dont know your work situation but you will need at least a week to get to feeling well enough to even function halfway decent. You could use those seroquel to sleep for like 3 to 4 days straight, also taking neurontin helps a lot too, you'll probably need a decent amount with your tolerance so probably at least 2000mg throughout the day, starting with about 1000 and slowly take a couple more then a couple more throughout the day. Also weed does help on top of these things, esp the neurontin. As far as the diahrea (sp?) i can't think of anything over the counter that will be strong enough to take care of that part, which coming in a close 1st to not being able to sleep, is definately one of the most annoying and uncomfortable experiences to w/drawal. But I hear immodium pills are the best and they also help with sleep. If you can't get ahold of seroquel to sleep, the absolutely only thing i have found to help with sleep that you can get over the counter is benedryl and it can be generic. Just make sure you're not buying the non drowsy kind, and you'll have to take literally like 6 of them, to even touch people like us with high high tolerances. And if you can get ahold of it, and even a hospital will prescrible it for withdrawals there's something called clonidine that's mainly precribed for blood pressure but that helps a lot and also helps with sleeping. But you literally need to have 3 to 4 days of where you will be doing absolutely nothing but sleeping through the bad part of the withdrawals. I hope this helps .

 

[Etolk92]

What does neurontin do ?^^

 

[Morphling]

Well, that's the question, isn't it. The theory is that neurontin increases levels of extra-synaptic GABA but...method of action is unexplained and undocumented, if I am recalling things correctly.