Opioids Health benefit from Opiates/Opioids

[JTemperance]

Remember they can't combine bupe with an existing generic drug like cetirizine because then they cannot patent the combination preparation. In order to secure a patent they need to combine bupe with a new drug. That's the one and only reason the samidorphan is there instead of them just doing clinical trials on buprenorphine alone.

I'm pretty sure they can actually, at least in the US, as ridiculous as it sounds. There was a combination of dextromethorphan and quinidine (two very old and generic drugs) that was being advertised on TV in the US not that long ago (only non-generic drugs being advertised, for obvious reasons). I think it had been originally investigated as an antidepressant, but only got licensing for a somewhat obscure condition (pseudobulbar affect). The quinidine is just there to inhibit the metabolism into DXO, like cimetidine or the quinine in tonic water would.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Beautifully described the last part, well yeah IMHO everyone should be able to decide which poison they wanna indulge in. I would like Opium dens to still exist aswell, it would be cool to hang out with other fellow opiate enthusiasts. NZN

There used to be Opium den's over here. In the Chinese part of town.

The crack down on opiod's like Morfine and Heroine also made these den's dissappear. Before my time though.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

In theory, would legalizing all opiates cause less overdoses or more? Just wondering if the forbidden reputation of heroin/oxy bought off the street makes it more attractive for drug users. I wish the US made narcan more easily availble for anyone to purchase. Alot of people would be saved even though I've heard it is quite expensive. People having to hide their opiate addictions from the world appears to do more harm than good. I'm glad that BL exists so users can talk about their use freely without judgement and in the regard of HR instead of having fingers pointed at them.

 

[Hylight]

well, they limit the amount of weed you can purchase soo no difference to me.
but this is just me trying to be reasonable and responsible. the reason i try so much to be on BL to begin with.
Anyway they put limits on rollbacks of icecream at the groceries. No different to me.
Making circumstances difficult to obtain just manifests wasted energy instead of converting more positivity. But othrr than that I f'n give up already. ☹.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I'm pretty sure they can actually, at least in the US, as ridiculous as it sounds. There was a combination of dextromethorphan and quinidine (two very old and generic drugs) that was being advertised on TV in the US not that long ago (only non-generic drugs being advertised, for obvious reasons). I think it had been originally investigated as an antidepressant, but only got licensing for a somewhat obscure condition (pseudobulbar affect). The quinidine is just there to inhibit the metabolism into DXO, like cimetidine or the quinine in tonic water would.

That's nuts if true. Wouldn't surprise me with how powerful the pharma lobby is in the US though.

I'm reminded of the fact Pfizer managed to get two separate patents on pregabalin in the EU, one for neuropathic pain and one for anxiety, with the latter expiring later, but that was on a new drug they developed. We don't have many combination drugs marketed in Europe aside from generic NSAID's + generic codeine and although there's a few different brands of those there's no patent. So I'm assuming it's not so easy to just get a patent granted for combining generic drugs in the EU market.

So maybe they realised that with opioids stigmatised in US medicine right now they'd get more money by selling it worldwide and securing a patent outside the US requires more than combining two generic drugs?

There must be an economic reason they created a new partial antagonist instead of just testing bupe alone or in combination with an existing drug which would have been cheaper and more effective if they'd still obtain a patent in all the markets they were aiming for.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Maybe the new drug was supposed to deter some kind of use in a manner inconsistent with its labelling, like putting naloxone in Talwin, Valoron N, and so forth and atropine in Lomotil, Motofen, back in the old days oral morphine tablets from some companies and hyoscine put into some injectable methadone to keep people from shooting more than one ampoule of it at once . . . Of course, adding a 350 μg dose and 15 mg of ephedrine to injectable oxycodone turns it into something akin to Scophedal, which Merck distributed as SEE from 1928 to 1939 and Scophedal from 1939 to 1987 and which my doctors write for a compounded mixture to be used for intractable breakthrough pain. As the medical and pharmacology journals of the time, Dr Kirschner (they also called it Kirschner's Injection in the 1920s and 1930s) and Merck wrote, it causes "Sehr tiefe Analgesie und tiefe Euphorie mit minimaler Auswirkung auf die Vitalfunktionen" -- yep, that's about the size of I would say.

---
* Switching in oxymorphone or hydromorphinol does work, but there is also some je ne sais quoi missing which may be the elusive thing that make oxycodone similar to C-Jam in some ways . . . there is a little bit more sedation with changing the narcotic to hydromorphone and a bit more than that if dihydromorphine, morphine, or nicomorphine is used. There was apparently some need opened up when they monked around with extended-release oxycodone because oral oxymorphone came back to the United States after 35 years and tapentadol was introduced de novo at around the same time. If hyoscine (scopolamine) makes one feel like shit after about 10 hours like it does for a lot of people, both orphenadrine and trihexyphenidyl are good possible replacements for that, and ephedrine can be replaced with C-Jam, Crank, or 4-methylaminorex too. Caffeine would have a different and potentiating effect on any stimulant used and would help with any headache caused by any of the three ingredients, and there used to be prescription medications which combined morphine and/or codeine with caffeine and Bolivian Marching Powder . . .

 

[emkee_reinvented]

In theory, would legalizing all opiates cause less overdoses or more? Just wondering if the forbidden reputation of heroin/oxy bought off the street makes it more attractive for drug users. I wish the US made narcan more easily availble for anyone to purchase. Alot of people would be saved even though I've heard it is quite expensive. People having to hide their opiate addictions from the world appears to do more harm than good. I'm glad that BL exists so users can talk about their use freely without judgement and in the regard of HR instead of having fingers pointed at them.

Were there OD in Opium den's I wonder.

They had to turn to Heroin eventually. As the ban created a market in which Opium obviously lost.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

well, they limit the amount of weed you can purchase soo no difference to me.
but this is just me trying to be reasonable and responsible. the reason i try so much to be on BL to begin with.
Anyway they put limits on rollbacks of icecream at the groceries. No different to me.
Making circumstances difficult to obtain just manifests wasted energy instead of converting more positivity. But othrr than that I f'n give up already. ☹.

They raised taxes on vegetable's and fruit over here.

Sorry OP bit offtrack here but legal Opiate's would at least be taxeable. Pure and consistent. Prescribed Heroin in UK to addict's showed a decrease in usage.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

and there used to be prescription medications which combined morphine and/or codeine with caffeine and Bolivian Marching Powder . . .

Who wouldn't like some of those

 

[CfZrx]

I admit it isn't scientific evidence or a physical health benefit, but when I do codeine it improves my mental health a lot. I have severe depression/anxiety, and I don't do it often, once every few months or so, but every time the experience really clears my head, reduces stress, makes me less anxious, etc. for a good while afterwards. No idea if there are any studies on this but it really does seem to be therapeutic even after it's fully left my system.

I too noticed that in the early days of snorting some black tar cooked with H2O once a week, that for days after my mental state was calmed. Of course it led to daily use. Now on Sub. No idea if it is healthy in any way. Hope it makes me younger! I do seem a lot more youthful than my peers, but I credit daily exercise.
Current Sub dose-10mg. Pain review- works great for my arthritic-type issues. downside-constipation, libido loss, eyes looking buzzed.
side note helps with sleep if you take a piece buccally in the middle of the night and return to bed.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Who wouldn't like some of those

In the same period - and up to quite recently, and perhaps in some locales even now -- codeine, morphine, and dihydrocodeine-based barbiturates were used too and the book Phantastica discusses them briefely as well as Trivalin, morphine valerate + caffeine valerate + cocaine valerate, in the section "Euphorica -- Mental Sedatives"

I guess they can be called mental sedatives, but I actually want to do more than usual after a dose of hydromorphone or oxycodone in particular, something that tweekers also report. Methylprednisolone, dexamethasone and other catabolic steroids do that too.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

In the same period - and up to quite recently, and perhaps in some locales even now -- codeine, morphine, and dihydrocodeine-based barbiturates were used too and the book Phantastica discusses them briefely as well as Trivalin, morphine valerate + caffeine valerate + cocaine valerate, in the section "Euphorica -- Mental Sedatives"

I guess they can be called mental sedatives, but I actually want to do more than usual after a dose of hydromorphone or oxycodone in particular, something that tweekers also report. Methylprednisolone, dexamethasone and other catabolic steroids do that too.

Reminded of an old medication tube my mother once got when a unkle died. She collects nostalgic tin like things and this was certainly a antique.

What interested me what was in this 'Nourytien', which was the brand or product name

ingredients:
o-oxy-benzomidum
acetyl-p-phanethtidiaum
1.3.7 trimethylxanthinum
1.phenyl 2.methylaminopropanoli
bromoisovalerianylureum

to be taken 1 or 2 tablets. The tabs left were even bigger as Paracetamol and crumbling and oxidizing due to old age.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

So the O-oxy-benzomidum what is it and it's purpose?

Acetyl-p-phanethtidiaum, is that the toxic predisessor of Paracetamol/ Acetominophen? Just guessing a bit on my earlier search for the ingredient's.

Caffeine and Ephedrine and a Valerian anologue which is very hard to find any info on. Bromeval
This link mention's it, it's about nomenclatura in the pharmacy from 1929.

https://pdfslide.net/documents/repo...nternational-pharmaceutical-nomenclature.html

The most interesting one in the combo pill, only info on the 'maybe ' dosage 300mg came from this site KAMPUS FARMACEUTYCZNY, they call it Bromewalum.

https://kampusfarmasi.blogspot.com/2015/08/bromevalum.html

 

[emkee_reinvented]

In the same period - and up to quite recently, and perhaps in some locales even now -- codeine, morphine, and dihydrocodeine-based barbiturates were used too and the book Phantastica discusses them briefely as well as Trivalin, morphine valerate + caffeine valerate + cocaine valerate, in the section "Euphorica -- Mental Sedatives"

If Valerate is Valeric acid. Why didn't they use Valerenic acid? Seems like that one effect's GABA-a, harder. Heard some anecdotal info about it over here too. But Valeric acid seem's weak on Wiki, and if it is the active principal of Valerian root, which I am no expert on, I find it weak or useless.

Btw this is de-railing off topic sorry for that. Maybe this part should have it's own thread ... call a mod. Maybe get this topic a place to recide.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Maybe the new drug was supposed to deter some kind of use in a manner inconsistent with its labelling

But then if they could secure the patent with a generic they could have just combined it with naloxone as is already done with Suboxone, no? Both buprenorphine and naloxone are generic drugs after all. Or would that not be allowed since the company making Suboxone has a patent on that combo of generics? I admit I'm hardly an expert on the US drug patent system, I know more about how it works in Europe.

 

[JTemperance]

But then if they could secure the patent with a generic they could have just combined it with naloxone as is already done with Suboxone, no? Both buprenorphine and naloxone are generic drugs after all. Or would that not be allowed since the company making Suboxone has a patent on that combo of generics? I admit I'm hardly an expert on the US drug patent system, I know more about how it works in Europe.

I believe the same drug or combination of drug can be patented for a new use. For instance, Obetrol (after 1973) was chemically identical to Adderall IR, but the approval for ADHD in 1996 put it back under patent. Of course, so many drugs are prescribed off-label in the US, this doesn't necessarily ensure great profits (though it did for Adderall, since nobody was making the old Obetrol anymore) -- doctors could prescribe generic buprenoprhine-naloxone for depression today if they wanted to (though the dosages would probably be too high given there's no 0.4mg in the US), and would conceivably do so in greater numbers if a brand-name version got FDA approval for that indication. Sort of like how generic sildenafil 20mg tablets are prescribed in place of brand-name Viagra 100mg pills, even though the generics are for a lung disease and not ED.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Is there something about the Suboxone tablet itself which allowed them to patent it, or was chicanery involved like with other FDA and DEA politricks?

 

[Ganjcat]

Opiates have no longterm positives short term yes long term no take a good look at the toothless woman at the methadone clinic with a pint of extra strength larger I used to believe that to op but well I was wrong very wrong

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Little bit off topic but I've always found it ironic how subs are so effective in treating many with heroin addiction (tablets). I've always gotten unbelievably high off the tablets. They seem to produce no euphoria within many patients, but for me it's an unparalleled amount of euphoria for 8 hours straight. I found them to be incredibly addicting, and I've taken them well within the time frame that would cause most people to go into precipitated withdrawal and I've never encountered that experience. They're stronger than any opioid I have ever tried in my life.

I'm not sure if it matters that it was subutex and not suboxone. Naive in the difference between the two. I don't think I should ever go on sub treatment due to this, lol. Even 1 milligram of subutex is too powerful.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I believe the same drug or combination of drug can be patented for a new use. For instance, Obetrol (after 1973) was chemically identical to Adderall IR, but the approval for ADHD in 1996 put it back under patent. Of course, so many drugs are prescribed off-label in the US, this doesn't necessarily ensure great profits (though it did for Adderall, since nobody was making the old Obetrol anymore) -- doctors could prescribe generic buprenoprhine-naloxone for depression today if they wanted to (though the dosages would probably be too high given there's no 0.4mg in the US), and would conceivably do so in greater numbers if a brand-name version got FDA approval for that indication. Sort of like how generic sildenafil 20mg tablets are prescribed in place of brand-name Viagra 100mg pills, even though the generics are for a lung disease and not ED.

Thanks for the info. So for the US market there's no reason they couldn't have just used buprenorphine and naloxone which has a proven history of clinical use from years of Suboxone scripts. I imagine the hesitation in this could have been that you can't just patent combining generics in the global market, which I reckon could have been a bigger target for an opioid based anti-depressant considering the stigma against opioid scripts in the USA.