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have you experienced ego death?

tortured soul? had some great ideas, maybe an idealist, i'm the same... probably OD one day doesn't really discredit anything i did in my life though. You can coach a hockey team and not be able to play for shit right?
 
RobotRipping said:
tortured soul? had some great ideas, maybe an idealist, i'm the same... probably OD one day doesn't really discredit anything i did in my life though. You can coach a hockey team and not be able to play for shit right?
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I don't think "for shit" is quite right. Some are either coaching little league or a high school team so that disqualifies them from playing, or you are coaching pros and you could be a good player but still come nowhere near that professional level. So they have each got an out.
The rest of 'em, like Watts would have been, could coach from a wheelchair and claim to eat bricks of shit for breakfast and shit out bars of gold standard for lunch, but I don't think you could handle flaunting what you do not have for long, without feeling pretty hurt inside.
The best doctors,.coaches, people generally, are the ones who have been through it before and know from à bit of experience, in whatever subject they are teaching. At least I think so. Could be wrong. With the same uncertainty, I think people who give help down to people are not around people who can give help back up to them. At least in their own head.
 
Ismene said:
Yeah surprised me too - read a biog of him a couple of years ago and he ended up an absolute broken alcoholic in total despair. He was touring giving lectures on reaching peace of mind through buddhism and then going back to his room alone and sinking two bottles of whiskey.

One of his sons said to him "Don't you want to live dad?" and he said "Yes son, but it's not worth the effort".
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For some reason, this doesn't surprise me.

But it also emphasis's the fact that no one is without their own issues; it bring people's own illusions of enlightenment into the spotlight and shatter's them.. which is necessary for any one genuinely seeking to understand themselves, you have to come to the realization on your own, it force's you to look to yourself for advice and trust yourself.
 
Is anyone really enlightened? Or is it just some meaningless bullshit term from a primitive religious people who lived several thousand years ago?
 
I believe in enlightenment. I've gotten a glimpse and am sure other people have too. But that's not hard science. I interpret enlightenment as being free from you ego. My ego is my cognitive framework about how it all *should* be, and the fears an desires that come out of this matrix.

I do believe it's *extremely* difficult lecturing about this and at the same time working on it. Lecturing is an Ego thing, especially in our society. You're standing on a stage, people applaud you, .. Look at Ram Dass's Fierce Grace. He interprets his stroke as a sign because he talked the talked but didn't walk the walk. He was talking about being here now but not being here now himself. Must have been hard when that one hit him..
I know people who consider themselves "highly evolved on the path" but ask 10USD for a yoga lesson while they themselves had not done one asana as of 3months ago.
IMO, real enlightenment has nothing to do with worldy profit. People tell me sometimes I should give lectures or write books about it, because "I could make a living". I am definetly not ready for that.
All I can think of in that respect is song lyrics from "The Knife - Marble House", esp the last 2 lines.

"I raise my hands to heaven out of curiosity
I don't know what to ask for
What has it got for me?
The others say we're hiding
It's as forward as can be
Some things I do for money
Some things I do for free"
 
Achten said:
I interpret enlightenment as being free from your ego, a cognitive framework about how it all *should* be...
Click to expand...
Wouldn't you agree when seeking enlightenment but not knowing what there will be, there is an intuitive sense, when you find it, or not find it, that you *knew* what you were after?
Even if we find it without truly pursuing it in the common sense of the word, we seem to stumble upon it.
It still seems an egotistical a goal as any. After all it, it only promises to help others through you.
You could guide others to it but still, it is a singular experience. It centers on the individual as an experience and make one feel accomplished, even recognized.
 
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it is tied tightly to continuous change
so if things are continuously changing,
enlightenment is also continuously changing
-- therefore you do not find it
-- you do not achieve it
-- at best you keep getting close to what is in tune at the moment
and then begin again
 
"The so called self-realization is the discovery for yourself and by yourself that there is no self to discover"

Enlightenment is just an idea perpetuating the search in order for you to realize that there is nothing to discover; you're already there.. you just had to remember. The price of self-liberation is accepting total responsibility for your existence, whole new set of challenges.. meaning, purpose, value.. everything must be redefined and determined upon the understanding that everything is a reflection of you experiencing itself in an infinite number of ways.

It's hilarious and tragic, im extremely bitter some days, while other days i find joy.. but im lost on a scale i can't even comprehend. Life is fucking bizarre and beautiful.
 
Death of ego as in... death of the soul? or like.. I am no longer a man? I no longer have manly emotions or behaviors "Don't look at my woman". I have never had an ego to be completely honest. I grew up in a dark haze rarely feeling any type of emotion other than laughter, fun, and a host of negative emotion that I can't put a name on. I remember what they did for me though. They opened my mind to reality. I don't think I can be any farther from being manly than I am right now. I AM PROUD

wow i sounded crazy...
 
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Ismene said:
Is anyone really enlightened? Or is it just some meaningless bullshit term from a primitive religious people who lived several thousand years ago?
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It's certainly a goal worth striving for, knowing full on that you'll never get there completely, much like many of lifes more invigorating pursuits I'd imagine.

As far as Watts was concerned I've listened to and read quite a bit of his material. If I had to make a guess as to why the end of his life ended up so different than that of his sober beginnings it would be his relentless philosophical practices.

Philosophy without restraint will drive a man to drink I know this from personal experience. If you're familiar with the psychological phenomonen known as 'existential crisis' you should be plainly aware that regardless of how disciplined in the techniques of zen buddhism, one who builds his life's work on the practice of continually questioning the nature of reality will invariably result in a prolific body of work lined with very real sometimes frightening insights, but will likely self-implode in the process.

Ask Lenny Bruce, Bill Hicks, Andy Kaufman, etc. about it if you should ever get the chance. Philosophizing for a living is not something that I woudl ever figure to end well.

I think it's not a matter of practicing what you preach. More a matter of your discoveries eventually overcoming your practice, and since we're dealing with mortal men here the practicioner gets old, worn out, the practice suffers, the drink or something similar becomes necessary, and then it's simply a matter of time.

I'm guessing on intuition that he wasn't a charleton. Just another great mind that burnt itself out for a greater, collective good.
 
Ismene said:
Is anyone really enlightened? Or is it just some meaningless bullshit term from a primitive religious people who lived several thousand years ago?
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Of course there are those who are enlightened, though it is not as Thou explained it. Enlightenment is not an ultimate unattainable goal worth striving for. Enlightenment is the continuous process of knowledge expansion, self improvement and integration of new moral values. No-one becomes enlightened and then says "I'm done" , there is always more to learn.


I think Alan Watts turned to the drink because of how far ahead he was of his peers and there was no-one to relate to. When you know the secrets of Zen and try to explain Zen to the average Joe and they don't understand, the isolation from knowing the ultimate truth is horrific, ime.

pupnik said:
it is tied tightly to continuous change
so if things are continuously changing,
enlightenment is also continuously changing
-- therefore you do not find it
-- you do not achieve it
-- at best you keep getting close to what is in tune at the moment
and then begin again
Click to expand...

Beautifully said, your posts impress me , pupnik. You are a smart individual.

To Robotripping and Ismene,
The correlation between ego death and lack of memory does not ring true with me. I have experienced ego dissolution where I was still completely conscious, though I could not recall anything to do with my personality prototype that my environment has built over the years. With my ego less experiences I usually don't remember it till 2 or 3 days later.
I have a feeling that some of these white out experiences some are mentioning are overdoses imo, as I have has far more luck with low dose trips, in detaching from ego.
 
pupnik said:
it is tied tightly to continuous change
so if things are continuously changing,
enlightenment is also continuously changing
-- therefore you do not find it
-- you do not achieve it
-- at best you keep getting close to what is in tune at the moment
and then begin again
Click to expand...

pmoseman said:
I would agree, which is why it bothers me that I did not understand it...
Click to expand...

Let me enlighten you (pun unintended). :) Due to the extremely individual and subjective nature of personal improvement, the moment that enlightenment is achieved, the next level is attainable, thus creating the infinite nature of learning and such. Always having the next level to strive for, does not make it unattainable, it makes it a continuous process.
 
Ismene said:
Can you name anyone alive today who is enlightened?
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Anyone who has knowledge that applies to their own reality, and could possibly share that information with others to improve their reality. Basically, the majority of intelligent people.
I have a feeling you are confusing enlightenment with the concept of transcendence.
 
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pmoseman said:
Wouldn't you agree when seeking enlightenment but not knowing what there will be, there is an intuitive sense, when you find it, or not find it, that you *knew* what you were after?
Even if we find it without truly pursuing it in the common sense of the word, we seem to stumble upon it.
It still seems an egotistical a goal as any. After all it, it only promises to help others through you.
You could guide others to it but still, it is a singular experience. It centers on the individual as an experience and make one feel accomplished, even recognized.
Click to expand...

Exactly. For me, it's being here in this moment, always. Because our ego focuses on change we (egos) interpret each moment as "new", therefore it is continuously changing.
It is an extremely personal experience, yes. In the past I though one could guide others to this insight, but now I don't believe this anymore. It's just *too* personal to even talk about.
Enlightenment is also realizing every moment is the same, IMO.

Ismene said:
Can you name anyone alive today who is enlightened?
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be standard answers like "the pope" or "the dalai lama". The cashier at your local supermarket might be enlightened, while your spiritual friends might not.
Most people who have achieved this state won't talk about it, IMO.
 
elucidator said:
Anyone who has knowledge that applies to their own reality, and could possibly share that information with others to improve their reality. Basically, the majority of intelligent people.
Click to expand...

Oh right, most religious people talk about it as some distant goal that you need to spend 60 years sweeping the ashram to try and attain. They always say "Taking drugs isn't enlightenment because you can't become enlightened in one day, you have to spend 60 years at the ashram".
 
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