Have to go back to MMT...or suboxone...what a choice!!

[RaZkaL86]

First off I would like to thank all the BL'ers who responded to my post("feel like a dirtbag"). The situation has ended and I feel I have no choice but to go back to the dreaded MMT which I hate but honestly the last time I was there I was clean for a long time. I want to make the calls and start the process but I am also considering the suboxone treatment. Haven't tried it yet but I have read (here btw) and know some ppl who are on it and all they do is get their scripts and sell them for dope money. It also says on here and other places that it's just as addicting as dope and also hard to get off of. With MMT I have to travel across town every day to get dosed and of course build up cleans to get take-homes(when I was on it last about 2 years ago I had 6 t/h and was in the process of getting 7 more so I only had to report to the clinic two times a month BUT I FUCKED UP and ended up using and of course I got hit with a urine screen so that same day I quit and stopped going. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!! From what I understand I have to find an MD who prescribes suboxone, go to a couple of appts and I should get a 30 day supply. I wouldn't be forced to go to meetings or "group gropes" as I call them, haha like the MMT does. I absolutely abhor groups where you have to share and get all gooey and mushy talking about how your life is a steaming pile of monkey shit and how all of a sudden now you're clean and sober so life is supposed to be all rainbows and singing "kumbaya" while you dance around happy arm in arm... BULLSHIT!!!! I've had clean time the longest around 3 years and all I remember is feeling like shit emotionally, constant drug dreams which made me not want to sleep. Feeling lost and alone cause you had to cut all contact with ppl who use and any places and things which might trigger you to use, which pretty much was everywhere and anyone. Seriously the main trigger for me is without a doubt MONEY!!! So when they tell you to get a job so you can feel like a normal person and start taking on responsibilities, it's like WTF?!??! What do I do when I start getting a regular paycheck? Most likely have to get a trustworthy person to handle your finances, open an account with no ATM privledges and all that.

So I'd like to hear your thoughts, experiences with MMT or suboxone and the pros and cons of each.... It would be sooooooo appreciated!!!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I would try Suboxone out. It isn't as addictive as methadone.

Best of luck!

 

[Swimmingdancer]

It also says on here and other places that it's just as addicting as dope and also hard to get off of.

I would try Suboxone out. It isn't as addictive as methadone.

Best of luck!

When you guys say "addictive" are you talking about mental addiction or physiological dependency? Cause those are 2 different things. Both methadone and buprenorphine will cause a strong physical dependence if you take them daily for a period of time, but some people do report that with buprenophine the withdrawals can be less severe than with methadone, or that if you take bupe for only a relatively short time it tends to be easier to get off than methadone. But then there are other people who say they are almost the same as far as dependence goes.

I would say methadone and buprenorphine both have their own pros and cons. You really have to decide which one is right for you, there is no easy answer about which one is "best". Everyone has different experiences and different preferences.

With MMT I have to travel across town every day to get dosed and of course build up cleans to get take-homes(when I was on it last about 2 years ago I had 6 t/h and was in the process of getting 7 more so I only had to report to the clinic two times a month BUT I FUCKED UP and ended up using and of course I got hit with a urine screen so that same day I quit and stopped going. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!! From what I understand I have to find an MD who prescribes suboxone, go to a couple of appts and I should get a 30 day supply. I wouldn't be forced to go to meetings or "group gropes" as I call them, haha like the MMT does. I absolutely abhor groups where you have to share and get all gooey and mushy talking about how your life is a steaming pile of monkey shit and how all of a sudden now you're clean and sober so life is supposed to be all rainbows and singing "kumbaya" while you dance around happy arm in arm... BULLSHIT!!!!
So I'd like to hear your thoughts, experiences with MMT or suboxone and the pros and cons of each.... It would be sooooooo appreciated!!!

Not all groups are like that. And any decent doctor treating you for addiction, even with Suboxone, will strongly encourage you to do some work on your mental addiction, such as therapy/counseling, groups, NA meetings, etc. If you don't want to do any group meetings or group counseling you still need to be doing something to work on the reasons you use in the first place. Methadone/Suboxone is not a cure for drug addiction, all it really does is alleviate withdrawal symptoms. So many people continue to use heroin or other opioids on top of their methadone/bupe because they haven't dealt with their mental addiction or they still want to get high, and they haven't mades changes in their lives, their mental health and their way of thinking. Methadone/bupe just provides us with some time to work on ourselves and our addiction by giving us stability by keeping us from having to use just to prevent WDs. We still have to do the work.

As for methadone vs buprenorphine, here is a list of some of the factors to consider:
- methadone is generally well tolerated while bupe has a higher incidence of side effects (headaches, insomnia, sweating, etc), although methadone has a higher likelihood of causing constipation than bupe
- with methadone you can go on it right away and you can easily switch to another opioid (aside from bupe) if something happens and you can't get your methadone, whereas with bupe you have to wait and be in WDs for 24 hrs or more before you can start taking it and worry about precipitated WDs
- if you go on one and end up deciding to switch to the other, with bupe you likely wouldn't have to wait as long after before you can start taking methadone, whereas with methadone you'd have to wait a few days before you could switch to bupe (also if you are on a high dose of methadone you can't switch to bupe until you are down to 25mg/day)
- some people say bupe makes them feel more energetic/motivated than methadone does, but that really varies from person to person
- with bupe you can relatively quickly/easily get take-homes for 14-30 days after only being on it for a short period of time, whereas with methadone you have to start off picking it up every day and eventually work your way up to 7-day take-homes (or maybe you can get longer carries for special circumstances such as travel if you're clean from other drugs) *Note: this could be considered both a pro and con, for example having to get your methadone daily prevents you from abusing it, selling it, taking it all at once and then having nothing left, etc so it actually can help if you're serious about getting clean
- bupe sometimes seems easier to taper down from when you decide you want to stop taking it, but it depends on the person, how long you've been taking it, etc.
- with bupe you don't have to go to the methadone clinic, which depending on where you live can suck for a number of reasons
- there is not quite as much of a social stigma with bupe as there is with methadone and it can be easier to travel with etc
- people seem to abuse their bupe more than they do their methadone, for a number of reasons
- bupe has a higher blocking effect of other opioids compared to methadone, which can be a problem if pain relief is needed
- bupe has a ceiling effect while methadone doesn't

 

[Missykins]

Not all groups are like that. And any decent doctor treating you for addiction, even with Suboxone, will strongly encourage you to do some work on your mental addiction, such as therapy/counseling, groups, NA meetings, etc. If you don't want to do any group meetings or group counseling you still need to be doing something to work on the reasons you use in the first place. Methadone/Suboxone is not a cure for drug addiction, all it really does is alleviate withdrawal symptoms. So many people continue to use heroin or other opioids on top of their methadone/bupe because they haven't dealt with their mental addiction or they still want to get high, and they haven't mades changes in their lives, their mental health and their way of thinking. Methadone/bupe just provides us with some time to work on ourselves and our addiction by giving us stability by keeping us from having to use just to prevent WDs. We still have to do the work.

One-hundred percent correct. You can't expect the "Suboxone Fairy" to come down and change your life. I believe that it is that expectation that causes people to continue to use while taking Suboxone. Or they simply find another substance to abuse.

You might consider changing the title to your thread to "Have to go back to MMT or Suboxone or DEATH...what a choice!"

 

[twato]

Personally, I think bupe is a wonder drug for those whose habits weren't too long, it's very easy to taper down from in a relatively short time, and as I can't get high from it (which is still very possible if I take enough done), I can get rid of my H addiction (1-2 grams of decent stuff a day, smoked) in a week, 10 days max.

I haven't read your previous post, but you don't come across as a scumbag. If you're looking to quit, I'd recommend subs, easier to obtain and also easier on your overall life. I mean, there's a reason people call done the "liquid shackles". If you just want to maintain, both bupe and done do the job; however, I'd still recommend the sub, as it's easier to taper off from.

Horses for courses, of course, just giving my 2 cents.

Also, stay strong mate, you seem a decent person. Don't fuck yourself up, you deserve better.

 

[RaZkaL86]

Thanks for all the feedback...still here in a rut using when I can and suffering when I can't....feel like I'm just hanging in mid-air waiting to see if I fly or fall. Really does a number on my will to keep living; I hate when I feel this way so I know I have to pursue these options with more motivation but it's so tough when I don't have the strength to.... I'll write more soon...

 

[doppelganga196]

I totally hear you man. So many i've heard say when they quit drugs it was the best decision they ever made but when i've quit, even for months at a time i only feel worse.

 

[Vaya]

H there RaZkaL

As a general rule, we prefer that discussions relating to the benefits and drawbacks of maintenance therapies, as they are discussions related primarily (if not exclusively) to drug discussion, be conducted in the Drug Discussion forums.

I am going to send this over to Other Drugs, where you ought to receive a wealth more response and where it will find a more appropriate home
Take care of yourself, okay?
TDS >>> OD

~ Vaya

 

[thelastclubkid]

something[/I] to work on the reasons you use in the first place. Methadone/Suboxone is not a cure for drug addiction, all it really does is alleviate withdrawal symptoms. So many people continue to use heroin or other opioids on top of their methadone/bupe because they haven't dealt with their mental addiction or they still want to get high, and they haven't mades changes in their lives, their mental health and their way of thinking. Methadone/bupe just provides us with some time to work on ourselves and our addiction by giving us stability by keeping us from having to use just to prevent WDs. We still have to do the work.

As for methadone vs buprenorphine, here is a list of some of the factors to consider:
- methadone is generally well tolerated while bupe has a higher incidence of side effects (headaches, insomnia, sweating, etc), although methadone has a higher likelihood of causing constipation than bupe
- with methadone you can go on it right away and you can easily switch to another opioid (aside from bupe) if something happens and you can't get your methadone, whereas with bupe you have to wait and be in WDs for 24 hrs or more before you can start taking it and worry about precipitated WDs
- if you go on one and end up deciding to switch to the other, with bupe you likely wouldn't have to wait as long after before you can start taking methadone, whereas with methadone you'd have to wait a few days before you could switch to bupe (also if you are on a high dose of methadone you can't switch to bupe until you are down to 25mg/day)
- some people say bupe makes them feel more energetic/motivated than methadone does, but that really varies from person to person
- with bupe you can relatively quickly/easily get take-homes for 14-30 days after only being on it for a short period of time, whereas with methadone you have to start off picking it up every day and eventually work your way up to 7-day take-homes (or maybe you can get longer carries for special circumstances such as travel if you're clean from other drugs) *Note: this could be considered both a pro and con, for example having to get your methadone daily prevents you from abusing it, selling it, taking it all at once and then having nothing left, etc so it actually can help if you're serious about getting clean
- bupe sometimes seems easier to taper down from when you decide you want to stop taking it, but it depends on the person, how long you've been taking it, etc.
- with bupe you don't have to go to the methadone clinic, which depending on where you live can suck for a number of reasons
- there is not quite as much of a social stigma with bupe as there is with methadone and it can be easier to travel with etc
- people seem to abuse their bupe more than they do their methadone, for a number of reasons
- bupe has a higher blocking effect of other opioids compared to methadone, which can be a problem if pain relief is needed
- bupe has a ceiling effect while methadone doesn't

^ basically everything swimmingdancer posted...

i want to add one thing that i really dont see discussed though... that is that MMT vs Bupe really is not the issue here aside from the above posted differences here.. e.g. if you worry about travel then bupe is a better choice but otherwise both are HR treatments that are meant to stabilize you so that you can get your life back on track...

everyone thinks that going on maintainance is about getting off of opiates but thats really *not* what the treatments are designed to do... they are actually designed to teach you about responsibiity; everything from the rules to the group meetings to the carry privelege requirements to the drug testing is desigined to get you used to the idea that you have to learn to take care of your own self and take charge of your life.. this takes *years* to happen and this is ultimately the reason why the relapse rate is so high for addicts that go into short term MMT or detox (where they get weaned off of opiates in 2-4 weeks). because of this i personally dont think that there is much reason to go into any maintainance program at all unless you plan to stay in for at least a year... that would be about the minimum time that your brain can rewire itself to stop *wanting* opiates as a solution to life problems.. (keep in mind that for me this actually took like 4 years to happen...)

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^ basically everything swimmingdancer posted...

i want to add one thing that i really dont see discussed though... that is that MMT vs Bupe really is not the issue here aside from the above posted differences here.. e.g. if you worry about travel then bupe is a better choice but otherwise both are HR treatments that are meant to stabilize you so that you can get your life back on track...

everyone thinks that going on maintainance is about getting off of opiates but thats really *not* what the treatments are designed to do... they are actually designed to teach you about responsibiity; everything from the rules to the group meetings to the carry privelege requirements to the drug testing is desigined to get you used to the idea that you have to learn to take care of your own self and take charge of your life.. this takes *years* to happen and this is ultimately the reason why the relapse rate is so high for addicts that go into short term MMT or detox (where they get weaned off of opiates in 2-4 weeks). because of this i personally dont think that there is much reason to go into any maintainance program at all unless you plan to stay in for at least a year... that would be about the minimum time that your brain can rewire itself to stop *wanting* opiates as a solution to life problems.. (keep in mind that for me this actually took like 4 years to happen...)

Very well put. I thought I touched on that issue though, so it's not exactly something that went unmentioned, you just explained it better and in more detail. I do think that Suboxone or methadone could possibly be effectively used short-term in a very small number of people, if they still did all the other stuff to make major changes in their life - for example, if someone is really truly ready to quit and has lots of support, they do a rapid taper on Subs, then go to rehab, then move to a different town where there are few triggers and they can't get heroin even if they want to and go to therapy and do a lot of work on their mental health and mental addiction, then maybe it could work as a short-term taper. But you're right that for the vast majority of people a short-term taper is not enough and relapse soon after is very likely. The hardest part of addiction is the mental addiction, even if we deal with the physical dependence that mental addiction is still there, and it takes a lot of time and effort to get to a point where we can choose not to act on the mental addiction/cravings.