Has science ever found the ACTUAL reason MDMA causes memory problems?

[Speculosity]

In my research, there's been many theories thrown around:

1. MDMA burns out Serotonin Axons, and when they regenerate (which they do on their own), they regenerate in a different way, messing up your memory, which serotonin contributes to.

2. Excitotoxicity happens where cells are burned out by too much glutamate being released, and your NMDA receptors (and the cells they're on die). NMDA receptors have a significant role in memory.

3. I didn't get too far into this, but MDMA messes up your hormonal system, which does play a factor in your memory.


Has science ever reached a clear reason?

 

[neurotic]

i think scientists haven't even reached a consensus on whether MDMA does or does not cause memory problems

why are you worried?

many people feel messed up after a bit too much MDMA (and hard drugs in general, but MDMA seems to do that a lot) but staying cool, healthy coupled with giving your brain a rest from drugs is usually enough to return to normal

 

[mb-909]

"The findings reviewed in this paper allow a number of conclusions to be drawn with regard to MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. First, there is little doubt that MDMA targets monoamine transporters, and transporter-mediated release of 5-HT, DA, and NE underlies pharmacological effects of the drug. While MDMA has been considered a predominately serotonergic agent, certain adverse effects including cardiovascular stimulation and hyperthermia likely involve NE and DA mechanisms, respectively. There seems to be no scientific rationale for using allometric scaling to adjust doses of MDMA between rats and humans because the pharmacologically relevant doses are similar in both species (e.g., 1–2 mg/kg). Nonetheless, the complex metabolism of MDMA needs to be examined in various animal species to permit comparison with clinical literature and to validate appropriate preclinical models. With regard to MDMA-induced neurotoxicity, it seems that 5-HT deficits are not always synonymous with axonal death because doses of MDMA which cause marked depletions of brain tissue 5-HT in rats (e.g., 10–20 mg/kg) are not associated with silver-positive staining, reactive gliosis, or loss of SERT protein. Like many other psychotropic drugs, MDMA is capable of producing bona fide neurotoxicity at sufficient doses (e.g., >25 mg/kg), and damage is not confined to 5-HT neurons. Many aspects of 5-HT function appear to be normal in MDMA-pretreated rats despite significant loss of brain 5-HT, perhaps illustrating the profound adaptive capability of the CNS. On the other hand, MDMA-induced 5-HT depletions are accompanied by impairments in evoked 5-HT release and neuroendocrine secretion that suggest tolerance development. The clinical relevance of preclinical findings is often uncertain, but the fact that MDMA can produce persistent increases in anxiety-like behaviors without measurable 5-HT deficits suggests that even moderate doses may pose risks."

- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1705495/

 

[St3ve]

I doubt there is one single cause of MDMA's memory impairing effects. Serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline all have modulatory roles in controlling plasticity in the hippocampus and MDMA causes massive increases of all three. I'd suggest that the overflow of neuromodulators during an MDMA experience temporarily changes the way cells normally encode memory...

 

[FuckWithRaw]

To mb909... just wanted to add that the doses I'm that study far exceed recreational human doses. 25 mg/kg is 10x the recommended dose.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

"The findings reviewed in this paper allow a number of conclusions to be drawn with regard to MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. First, there is little doubt that MDMA targets monoamine transporters, and transporter-mediated release of 5-HT, DA, and NE underlies pharmacological effects of the drug. While MDMA has been considered a predominately serotonergic agent, certain adverse effects including cardiovascular stimulation and hyperthermia likely involve NE and DA mechanisms, respectively. There seems to be no scientific rationale for using allometric scaling to adjust doses of MDMA between rats and humans because the pharmacologically relevant doses are similar in both species (e.g., 1–2 mg/kg). Nonetheless, the complex metabolism of MDMA needs to be examined in various animal species to permit comparison with clinical literature and to validate appropriate preclinical models. With regard to MDMA-induced neurotoxicity, it seems that 5-HT deficits are not always synonymous with axonal death because doses of MDMA which cause marked depletions of brain tissue 5-HT in rats (e.g., 10–20 mg/kg) are not associated with silver-positive staining, reactive gliosis, or loss of SERT protein. Like many other psychotropic drugs, MDMA is capable of producing bona fide neurotoxicity at sufficient doses (e.g., >25 mg/kg), and damage is not confined to 5-HT neurons. Many aspects of 5-HT function appear to be normal in MDMA-pretreated rats despite significant loss of brain 5-HT, perhaps illustrating the profound adaptive capability of the CNS. On the other hand, MDMA-induced 5-HT depletions are accompanied by impairments in evoked 5-HT release and neuroendocrine secretion that suggest tolerance development. The clinical relevance of preclinical findings is often uncertain, but the fact that MDMA can produce persistent increases in anxiety-like behaviors without measurable 5-HT deficits suggests that even moderate doses may pose risks."

- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1705495/

Excellent study, though I imagine that soon you'll hear from the MDMA apologists who will insist MDMA has no harmful side effects or consequences and that it can be used with impunity by everyone and that nobody will have any problems, ever.

 

[Black]

MDMA apologists

good luck finding those among us MED regulars. the only reason why most of us sound like mdma apologists from time to time is that we're using exactly the same paper cited above to shut up those people, who are hysterically asserting that mdma is the most dangerous drug of all because it puts holes in your brain (while citing the convicted liar ricaurte and his flawed experiments).

 

[Kl519]

That's pretty much it. That "study" didn't even use mdma either, but meth. The stupid part is that the gov still leaves it up there and touts it as the truth. Concerning mdma, that source just instantly loses all credibility, and interestingly enough every other countries' scientists feel the same way.

This isn't to say mdma is harmless. It's not. There's a reason why it's suggested that users should wait 1-3 months between rolls. But that Ricuarte quack paper? That man was funded a huge amount of $$ by the government to churn out that bs, and for someone that famous to say, "oops, the vialz were mislabeled" says a lot about how that study went.

I've seen BL's history. This same study has been brought up and blasted into oblivion already, only for it to reassemble and show up again several years later.

millions of kids use this substance, and have been for decades. Yet we have not seen a single epidemic anywhere. That's saying something, at the very least on the short term scale.

i honestly don't want to see that study referenced again. If anything, at least get the damn independent variable correct and start over then. 8)

 

[mb-909]

In my opinion many people tend to either overreact or simply ignore the dangers of MDMA... Most of us only focus on certain organs suchs as the brain and therefor forget that there are other important organs as well. Aphetamine's are not good for your heart by overstimulating 5-HT2B receptors for long periods of time. For this reason alone we should take as less stimulants working on said receptors as possible.

Personally I believe that MDMA leads to long lasting changes in your brain chemistry resulting in said memory problems, which could result from the more increased anxienity-like behaviors. Alone that it changes so many things in your whole body like reduced blood flow in the forebrain, higly reduced CYP2D6 metabolismn, changes in your hormone system and long lasting tolerance screams danger ahead! But this is just my point of view and also the reason why I quit taking MDMA in general. I rather take well researched psychedlics, because they are more useful for me right now with less physical risk associated. Maybe some time later on in life I am going to try MDMA again, but right now I don't need it.

 

[Kl519]

That is a fair point, and one that is undoubtedly positive for yourself if that is what you choose.

I'm mostly bothered about how that specific study made such a huge error and then gets quoted as a fact. The drug wasn't even the right one...-_-

But I don't blame this on the posters as much as the source still standing upright while talking out of its ass. Still, the Ricuarte study is the worst example by far concerning "mdma" damage. This is why I don't value "sources" as much as the main point; anyone can interpret data to back up a claim and still be completely wrong. It's not just here; I've seen it many times everywhere because a lot of the information out there isn't perfect. Aka misinformation. Anyone can say anything, and then google it to back up what they said. That's a testament to how hard it is to prove something definitively. Especially on the subject of illicit drugs where actually conducting human trials are about as likely as alcohol getting banned.

I have been doing a lot of reading just now and undeniably, as I said, mdma is not harmless. A simple BL search with "Ricuarte" brings up the same argument, largely with the same results which I discovered quite a while ago. There have been other studies too, but by and large they amount to flawed data. There is evidence on both sides. Even so, I would say that in large doses for long periods of time, it will do at least some kind of negative damage, but I am not too sure. Without proper care and lifestyle habits, it can wreck people, however ,that isn't harm exclusively from mdma then. But much of the damage is reversible, especially with abstinence and there is lots of evidence pointing towards people living successful lives and careers despite their abuse. In other words, ultimately the damage being done is very small and when put into perspective, many non-illicit drugs and lifestyle habits (nutrition, exercising, proper sleep, stress, lack of critical thinking activities, trans fats, sugar intake, pollution, aspirin, etc) can do more harm. When you think of all the damage that can be done by just about anything, the argument for mdma damage becomes quite small.

If one were to really go all out, one could make a case that simply waking up and living is neurotoxic and damages the brain. But really, I don't think anyone wants to go there, lol. That pretty much voids any argument.

It's just that mdma is most likely not as harmful as it is being made out to be from certain views/sectors. The extremists come from both sides, but if one acknowledges both arguments, it makes it a lot harder to argue against. When one looks at the raw data, this is rarely done even though that is what makes a study just and compelling; the acknowledgement of errors and variables, especially if they are loaded with them.

Personally, even I know I made a mistake taking mdma so much during a certain period of time...which is exactly why I corrected it but didn't really plaster that part. My period of abuse had a lot more to do with me being self destructive more than enjoying mdma itself; I just wanted to drop and I didn't care about the consequences. I wasn't depressed or trying to escape from anything, I was just caught up in the drug culture; too busy raving, socializing and what not, as well as getting the most I could out of other substances as well.

I became really close with a friend (who later became my gf) during this particular time too, so I can't say I regret it. I also learned a lot from my experiences. And another important thing it did was get out all of the fun I wanted to have; lately most weekends I stay at home with my gf, enjoy some coffee/tea and read or go on my iPad. I rarely party and I don't go all out anymore. It's not because I can't; I just don't want to after what I've done already. It's because deep inside of me, which isn't wholly based on reason, I feel like I have to let go of substance use entirely for myself to live a proper life in the future. You know, the works: career, wife/kids, things like that. I would definitely never have kids and still be a user. I couldn't do that even if every single drug was as harmless as water.

Ah, damn it, I digressed again. But anyway, this study and that one, or whatever, fuck it. Moderation is the key.

Edit: Some fixing.

 

[mb-909]

The human mind is fascinating. It collects so much data and analyses it so quick that for us everything looks fluid like a flowing river. The things we actually see is the light waves reflected and absorbed by our soroundings translated in colour, all made up by your human mind. Sames goes for all other senses, our movement, calculatin/ analyzing and our thinking. This system is so well balanced that even small changes can have a great impact on our own perception. At least it is not a static system with 0's and 1's, but a changing system. Neuroplasticity is a beautiful thing and everybody noticed it to some degree while being walking their paths on this sometimes rocky planet.

MDMA is like any other drug a gateway to a new perception of the world and how we interact with it. For me it was discovery of my long forgotten humanity, which I transformed in a system of prediction analyzing the habits of the flesh and meat sorounding me. Emotions had been lost during a teenage breakdown lasting 5 years. Searching for answers and thereby misinterprating emotional reactions I started to follow the only path I could: The path of logic. With this I was at least partly able to switch out information with my race. Whereby living became the same as non living. Static and made out of atoms forming new connections and disconecting the old. My depression and my psychotic phase robbed me my thinking in the end and I lost all hope. The human being seems to be free. Thinking seems to be free or maybe not? But isn't it so that all our actions are to some degree predictable? All the "information" we experienced and our own biological program leads our thinking. Why can't do you behave like you do and would you behave differently if the circumstances would had been different? Being a puppet controlled by the strings of emotion I felt useless. More and more I became one with the blank wall behind me...

MDMA changed my life to a great degree. Being numbed by my emotions I have developed interest in humanity again. I was able to talk freely, to look at people again and to feel again. It has to be said that I feared death by the people around me, because of my halluzinations, unknown voices and the other typical psychotic symptoms. This is also the reason why I forgot how to speak my own native language resulting in not speaking more than 10 sentences a week.

Fascinating how a single experience can turn around somebody in no time. Till today it freaks me out that I had stayed sober for 6 year before my enlightening experience, but in the end I learned how to endure my mental defficits in this state of soberness. 2 years have passed by now and I am getting better and better with my thinking, writing and all over aspects of my life. I am still suffering from my mental condition but at least I function to a certain degree. There is hope that I socialise during the next few years again and then be able to live a life without regret. Learning how to live again... For others it is such an easy task, for me it takes its toll everytime.

This is also the reason why I am often annoyed by those, who massivly abuse this wonderful substance resulting in their down fall. On the other hand I know how hard it is to resist those illicit substances and how beneficial they can be. Also I understand all the negative psychological factors such as anxiety very well, which is also the reason why I want to help those needing help at the moment. For me the chances are pretty high that I get adicted to any substance which I am going to take, which is why I switched to psychedlics to reduce the physial after effects.

Nothing is ever brocken. Look at me, the guy who was said to be a life long patient for medication treatment... Well I showed those naysayers that you can change. Neuroplasticity works till we die. An endless process, which can help anybody even though it mights take its time and mental toll.