Harm Reduction Vs External Image

[Jabberwocky]

i'm eagerly awaiting your epic reply, p_d i've been logging in and refreshing for a while in anticipation!

 

[phase_dancer]

I've a pile on my plate today, so I haven't time to address everything I'd like to. But here's my general thoughts on this.

Image

Image doesn't just apply to presenting well to non-drug users, police, media or whatever.

As ego shattering as it may sound, unrelated to the persona of posters, it's the overall image of the forum that plays the biggest role in attracting posters and browsers, particularly those who return after passing through here searching for information. We want those people to come back and contribute.

Making information concise, easily locatable and as much as possible free of off topic chatter has been the aim off AusDD mods since I first posted here in 1999. Indeed, for me, it was what distinguished AusDD from many of the other forums around at the time. It should seem apparent that if those three areas are addressed, we're likely to attract a broader readership, more representative of the wider community.

Less important, but arguably more so than a few years ago, is to demonstrate by example to the wider public that not all drug users are fucked up no hopers who use HR as a guise or excuse to rant on about their overindulgences. Sure there can be HR merit in discussing addiction, bad outcomes etc - personal or otherwise - but context is everything.

A balance is required, which I believe is achievable with little to no sacrifice to the HR message.


Fundamental Harm Reduction?

Like it or not, in it's very essence, HR is deterrent in nature. If it wasn't, it would serve no purpose. That's not to say the sole purpose of HR is to prevent drug use, not at all.

People who genuinely inquire about HR do so because they wish to learn how they can lessen or prevent harm to themselves or friends/family. Nothing new in that. But as advisers, and that includes many of our long time posters, responsibly lies in what is emphasised.

Like it or not, one of the roles of the mods is to step in when they consider a poster strays off course, is reckless, or contravenes guidelines, even when well intended. Intervention, whether it be answering a simple question or explaining something in detail, should always strive for improving outcome. CWE is a good example of a double edged word, and such subjects should be approached with that primarily in mind.


Community

I'm not saying there is no need for AusDD to maintain a degree of local community feel to it. However, AusDD is a HR based drug discussion forum which is part of a broader community. Social forums abound; why not use them as intended and conduct the more social fluff there?

Mention is made of how people only come here for the social, and if we lost that we'd lose many of our most knowledgeable and helpful posters. Rubbish! My bet is most of those posters would continue to post here, perhaps less frequently, but something tells me many wouldn't be able resist the urge to regularly pop their head in and offer some worldly advice %)

 

[skatkid]

the moderating is getting pretty pedantic

 

[dextrous]

I've a pile on my plate today, so I haven't time to address everything I'd like to. But here's my general thoughts on this.

Image

Image doesn't just apply to presenting well to non-drug users, police, media or whatever.

As ego shattering as it may sound, unrelated to the persona of posters, it's the overall image of the forum that plays the biggest role in attracting posters and browsers, particularly those who return after passing through here searching for information. We want those people to come back and contribute.

Making information concise, easily locatable and as much as possible free of off topic chatter has been the aim off AusDD mods since I first posted here in 1999. Indeed, for me, it was what distinguished AusDD from many of the other forums around at the time. It should seem apparent that if those three areas are addressed, we're likely to attract a broader readership, more representative of the wider community.

As much as you try to steer away from it, forums ARE a place of social fluff and mindless chatter, along with harm reduction and everything else. It's freedom to communicate. I don't believe BL AusDD was originally made to be solely a harm reduction forum.

Less important, but arguably more so than a few years ago, is to demonstrate by example to the wider public that not all drug users are fucked up no hopers who use HR as a guise or excuse to rant on about their overindulgences. Sure there can be HR merit in discussing addiction, bad outcomes etc - personal or otherwise - but context is everything.

A balance is required, which I believe is achievable with little to no sacrifice to the HR message.

The wider public isn't really going to visit a site like bluelight, unless they were doing drugs. You say balance is required but can't you see there is no balance here? Hence the creation of this thread and others?

Fundamental Harm Reduction?

Like it or not, in it's very essence, HR is deterrent in nature. If it wasn't, it would serve no purpose. That's not to say the sole purpose of HR is to prevent drug use, not at all.

People who genuinely inquire about HR do so because they wish to learn how they can lessen or prevent harm to themselves or friends/family. Nothing new in that. But as advisers, and that includes many of our long time posters, responsibly lies in what is emphasised.

The very first thing I do before I try any drug is to go online and look at the facts - harm reduction. I don't get turned off by it. Right now I just think this forum revolves too much around harm reduction. Besides, this isn't the only place people come to for drug information. You don't have a responsibility to inform people about HR. Erowid is more widely accepted amongst people I know (in real life) as a source for information.

What you're saying is that if there were more social threads here, somehow the harm reduction would sink into the underground.

Like it or not, one of the roles of the mods is to step in when they consider a poster strays off course, is reckless, or contravenes guidelines, even when well intended. Intervention, whether it be answering a simple question or explaining something in detail, should always strive for improving outcome. CWE is a good example of a double edged word, and such subjects should be approached with that primarily in mind.

What would be considered 'on course'?

Community

I'm not saying there is no need for AusDD to maintain a degree of local community feel to it. However, AusDD is a HR based drug discussion forum which is part of a broader community. Social forums abound; why not use them as intended and conduct the more social fluff there?

I think people prefer to stick around in one place, get familiar with the people on one forum, not dart around to five different boards. What degree of community are you even talking about? It seems like all that's on your mind is HR. I come here because there's Australians here. I can relate to you guys more than on any international boards. If this wasn't an Australian drug board I'm sure a large chunk of us wouldn't even bother coming.

Mention is made of how people only come here for the social, and if we lost that we'd lose many of our most knowledgeable and helpful posters. Rubbish! My bet is most of those posters would continue to post here, perhaps less frequently, but something tells me many wouldn't be able resist the urge to regularly pop their head in and offer some worldly advice %)

Being a part of other drug forums and I can find information about harm reduction just as easily as I can here - and they're fluttered with social threads. In fact it's almost harder to get information here as you need to find it in a megathread. I prefer to make a thread myself and have people address me directly. I get more replies and there's no huge mass of pages I have to sift through (as you said you're strapped for time - so are a lot of us!). If you abolish the social threads you abolish the community all together.

Why so adamant about this? I like this forum and there's a lot of smart people here. I'd just like to see more openness and more of a community feel. We're Australians. We like to have a laugh and joke around.

 

[Jabberwocky]

As much as you try to steer away from it, forums ARE a place of social fluff and mindless chatter, along with harm reduction and everything else. It's freedom to communicate. I don't believe BL AusDD was originally made to be solely a harm reduction forum.

bluelights intention for the focus forums was never to turn them into social forums. i for one would hate to see bluelight becoming a socialiising site first and foremost. there are social forums such as drug culture to talk all about your drug escapades as well as the other regional social forums, plus the L word forum

sure there always room for social banter but it's got to be in context and not dragging threads off topic.

It's freedom to communicate. I don't believe BL AusDD was originally made to be solely a harm reduction forum

it was. and bluelight is not a democracy, there's not such thing as freedom speech on here. sorry to disappoint, but that's the fact of the matter.

Right now I just think this forum revolves too much around harm reduction.

that's because it is a harm reduction focus forum first and foremost

very well constructed post phase_dancer, i agree with the most of it.

 

[dextrous]

bluelights intention for the focus forums was never to turn them into social forums. i for one would hate to see bluelight becoming a socialiising site first and foremost. there are social forums such as drug culture to talk all about your drug escapades as well as the other regional social forums, plus the L word forum

Who said anything about a socialising site first and foremost? I'm not trying to change the way this site is run, that's up to you guys. I'm just giving some user feedback. What's wrong with drawing a few more members by being a bit more social?

sure there always room for social banter but it's got to be in context and not dragging threads off topic.

Doesn't appear so at the moment.

it was. and bluelight is not a democracy, there's not such thing as freedom speech on here. sorry to disappoint, but that's the fact of the matter.

We have polls.. Bluelight is a democracy! No freedom of speech on here? What am I doing right now?

that's because it is a harm reduction focus forum first and foremost

What's this balance p_d is speaking about then? I'm confused. It seems some of you think this forum is derailing and some of you don't.




edit underlined.. forgot to add a word there!

 

[drug_mentor]

I've a pile on my plate today, so I haven't time to address everything I'd like to. But here's my general thoughts on this.

Image

Image doesn't just apply to presenting well to non-drug users, police, media or whatever.

As ego shattering as it may sound, unrelated to the persona of posters, it's the overall image of the forum that plays the biggest role in attracting posters and browsers, particularly those who return after passing through here searching for information. We want those people to come back and contribute.

Making information concise, easily locatable and as much as possible free of off topic chatter has been the aim off AusDD mods since I first posted here in 1999. Indeed, for me, it was what distinguished AusDD from many of the other forums around at the time. It should seem apparent that if those three areas are addressed, we're likely to attract a broader readership, more representative of the wider community.

Less important, but arguably more so than a few years ago, is to demonstrate by example to the wider public that not all drug users are fucked up no hopers who use HR as a guise or excuse to rant on about their overindulgences. Sure there can be HR merit in discussing addiction, bad outcomes etc - personal or otherwise - but context is everything.

A balance is required, which I believe is achievable with little to no sacrifice to the HR message.

I have to disagree with you that it is the image that attracts posters, I think most people happen upon bluelight themselves or get put on by a friend or acquaintance. I know what kept me here was the information and not any sort of image. The site is well structured enough and full of solid information, a bit of chatter doesn't really mask this fact.

Also, whether image was important to the drug users who use the site, you can't tell me that when you talk about the "image" of Bluelight, and you want to discourage talking too positively about drugs or other things that have been censored lately, that this has been done to improve the image in their eyes. That is PURELY for the benefit of the media and law enforcement. I don't think a drug user coming to a drug site is going to expect a neutral attitude from us, so the way I see it you are primarily cleaning it up for non users of this site, or atleast people who aren't using it for a HR benefit to themselves or others but rather to gather intelligence and fish for stories.

I don't think chatting about certain drug experiences or "overindulgences" as you put it should make us appear to all be "fucked up no hopers". Infact, I think the fact that we can still have a bit of fun and a laugh about our drug use while STILL coming across as intelligent and willing to help should be a positive thing for drug users. I don't think our aim should be to appear like every drug user is conservative, I would like to think we can show that while overindulgence isn't reccomended it doesn't automatically make one stupid or a bad person. Our knowledge on the subject and willingness to help others should be enough to show that we are neither.

I also think that no matter how easily locatable information is there are those who fit in the category they will NEVER search and just ask the question regardless how easily they could answer it themselves, and there are those who will find their own answer even if it requires a lot of effort. There is little in between. I am not saying the information shouldn't be relatively organised, but I don't see there being a general difference in posting behaviour even if it was a tad more organised.

I also find it interesting you refer to "the HR message" because on one hand I think you are very right. If we take all the opinions out, especially more positive reviews of drugs, then there would be a more solid and consistent HR message contained within this site. There is however, a difference between having a strong HR message and being effective HR in practise. What I mean by this is that while if you take opinions out and leave everything so it is all in check, it echoes the same message more consistently, the problem with this approach lies in both its clinical feel which is less engaging for less interested parties to read and the detraction from the sense of community which is what causes many new posters to stick around.

Fundamental Harm Reduction?

Like it or not, in it's very essence, HR is deterrent in nature. If it wasn't, it would serve no purpose. That's not to say the sole purpose of HR is to prevent drug use, not at all.

People who genuinely inquire about HR do so because they wish to learn how they can lessen or prevent harm to themselves or friends/family. Nothing new in that. But as advisers, and that includes many of our long time posters, responsibly lies in what is emphasised.

Like it or not, one of the roles of the mods is to step in when they consider a poster strays off course, is reckless, or contravenes guidelines, even when well intended. Intervention, whether it be answering a simple question or explaining something in detail, should always strive for improving outcome. CWE is a good example of a double edged word, and such subjects should be approached with that primarily in mind.

It's funny you put the italics on the word emphasised there, and I don't disagree with you. But I am starting to feel like it isn't really an emphasis on a more neutral attitude towards drugs, rather an attempt being completely neutral which takes the opinion out of it. In my view, you shouldn't be taking the opinions out of a forum, there is a difference between emphasis on certain points and censorship.

Also, I don't think HR is deterrant in nature, since it acknowledges people will do something anyway it educates them how to do so with minimal risk. Obviously abstinence would completely eliminate the risk, but harm elimination or harm prevention would better describe this. Harm reduction implies there is already some harm, so in the context of drug use I don't see it as discouraging whatsoever because you have already acknowledged and accepted the behaviour.

This - "Like it or not, one of the roles of the mods is to step in when they consider a poster strays off course, is reckless, or contravenes guidelines, even when well intended." - stood out to me as well, because it seems like there is a lot of discussion in those codeine threads that couldn't be described as off course or contravening guidelines, yet you are still choosing to censor that and end further discussion on the drug and HR issues surrounding it.

Community

I'm not saying there is no need for AusDD to maintain a degree of local community feel to it. However, AusDD is a HR based drug discussion forum which is part of a broader community. Social forums abound; why not use them as intended and conduct the more social fluff there?

Mention is made of how people only come here for the social, and if we lost that we'd lose many of our most knowledgeable and helpful posters. Rubbish! My bet is most of those posters would continue to post here, perhaps less frequently, but something tells me many wouldn't be able resist the urge to regularly pop their head in and offer some worldly advice %)

You are probably right that the regular posters would still come, I know I will probably be a Bluelighter for a long time regardless of how it changes. I think it is more about getting newer members to stick around and become knowledgable and well respected posters.

I have a question that is something I have wondered for a while. What do you feel is the HR benefit to regional forums if it is not to create a sense of community and allow some banter?

It would seem to me, that drugs are actually universal and while different countries have different drugs commonly available and different social stigma's attached to them, if I got some cocaine or ketamine or whatever there is no reason that it would be any different to the same drugs bought in England or Spain or wherever. Obviously quality and price will be different, but these are not things we are even allowed to discuss on Bluelight so that isn't even really relevant. The HR principles in use of the drug remain pretty much exactly the same regardless of region with few exceptions. Probably the most notable one I could think of with relevance to HR is the difference in preparation of heroin for injecting in different regions depending if it is no.3 or no.4, overall I still think it could be easy to differentiate between the two and inform people how to identify and use either without making regional forums.

The fact is that the majority of questions in AusDD could easily be put in OD, BDD, DiTM, ED or CD. There isn't a whole helluva lot that is in here you would say is totally Australian centric. Keeping this in mind, it seems a given that you are playing on the sense of community and should therefore allow a social community to exist. I am NOT saying scrap AusDD, I love this forum! I am simply asking you to acknowledge that there is regional discussion for reasons that go beyond HR and that lately the moderation style has failed to reflect this.

For the record I would be devastated for Bluelight to go from a HR focused forum to a socially focused one, but I would also be devastated to see it become a place where opinions and experience are frowned upon and only FAQ's and fact sheets are allowed.

 

[phase_dancer]

you can't tell me that when you talk about the "image" of Bluelight, and you want to discourage talking too positively about drugs or other things that have been censored lately, that this has been done to improve the image in their eyes. That is PURELY for the benefit of the media and law enforcement.

No it isn't. Most of all it's for the benefits of those who come here with little to no knowledge, see only a positive spin and go away believing a drug is less harmful than it really is. I've been picking up casualties doing out reach for going on 12 years, so maybe I see it as a priority to properly educate. Also, a major drive for me is feedback from non-bluelighters I speak to about AusDD. I guess, unless you hear from such people, you never really know whether anyone is put off by the dribble, or because the things they're looking for are too hard to find. I get far more of these type of comments today than I did 5 years ago.

The other area where moderators are quick to jump concerns unnecessary admission of serious criminal offenses such as admitting dealing, possession of large amounts, importing, synthesising etc. Aside from the dicksizing, would you say that's to do with site image? To a degree it is - I'm sure a lot of our posters wouldn't be here if such talk filled our pages. But the main reason is because it's potentially very dangerous, and often these people think that they're invulnerable when posting here. In my interpretation of HR, it's also about preserving liberty.

No-one knows if BLer identities are known to authorities. Bluelighters have been busted with phones full of other BLers numbers. Not to mention computers, IM, facebook or info gained from busted Bler's revealing other BLer's identities. While some of us have little to no reason to hide our RL identities here, I've been surprised on more than one occasion when I've been contacted in RL regarding Bluelight related matters. If I had such intentions, I'm sure I could track down most of our more long term members, so I don't think LE, with all their available resources would have any problems.

Appreciating these things naturally makes one (me at least) want to do whatever possible to prevent our Blers coming unstuck as a result of something they posted here. If you want to label that an image issue, that's up to you, but when a prominent BLer get's busted and announces here that he thinks a Bler squealed, it sends shock waves through the board. If that ended up being true, or we had confirmation that police are targeting individuals here, it would clear the forum quicker than anything else I could think of.

I have a question that is something I have wondered for a while. What do you feel is the HR benefit to regional forums if it is not to create a sense of community and allow some banter?

More than anything else imo, regional forums offer information on local trends and substances, hopefully also along with pertinent HR info, or links to such.

Ideally, we would be posting scientifically validated info on new substances the moment they appeared in Aus. Early Aus members such as the Enlighten crew, and others, fought long and hard to get some form of government sanctioned testing happening. After years and years of disappointments and brick walls, there's not many of us left, as most came to see it as a pipe dream. But determination can pay off eventually, and I'm very pleased to say there is now a very strong likelihood at least one state (to start with) will see this service introduced. Never have things looked so positive. If current planning eventuates, this info will appear on AusDD as soon as the tests are done. Stay tuned.

I never said community and social is unimportant, some social stuff is essential, as are trip reports, anecdotal accounts and observations. It's a mod's decision to decide what's too much. Naturally we don't all think the same, so where possible the issue is discussed first between mods. The codeine issue certainly was. But nothing is set in stone either. If it's felt we need another codeine thread for whatever reason, then we'll have one. Let's just see how things go over the next few days. There has also been discussion on the FAQ concept, so no semi-final decision has been made at this stage.

It would seem to me, that drugs are actually universal and while different countries have different drugs commonly available and different social stigma's attached to them, if I get some cocaine or ketamine or whatever there is no reason that it would be any different to the same drugs bought in England or Spain or wherever. Obviously quality and price will be different, but these are not things we are even allowed to discuss on Bluelight so that isn't even really relevant.

In regards to common illicits of known purity, sure, however I will add that variations on illicit drugs; impurities, cuts etc, can be unique to Australia. Pharmaceutical preparations and formulations may also be specific to Australia, and new and novel recreational compounds are entering the market all the time. Often the "legals" arriving in Australia have different ingredients to the same products sold elsewhere in the world. The chart posted today on NRG ingredients is a good example of how the same product can vary.

It's funny you put the italics on the word emphasised there, and I don't disagree with you. But I am starting to feel like it isn't really an emphasis on a more neutral attitude towards drugs, rather an attempt being completely neutral which takes the opinion out of it. In my view, you shouldn't be taking the opinions out of a forum, there is a difference between emphasis on certain points and censorship.

I think Sykik addressed this by saying we neither condemn nor condone drug use. We also try to foster a policy of non-judgment. Opinion is fine, providing it's stated as such. If you look back to the early days, this was far more strictly enforced than it has been in past few years. It probably comes as no surprise that I'd like to reinstate such a policy. If you want to make a statement that is claimed as fact, particularly if it seems at odds with other opinions, post a reference, simple as that.

Also, I don't think HR is deterrant in nature, since it acknowledges people will do something anyway it educates them how to do so with minimal risk. Obviously abstinence would completely eliminate the risk, but harm elimination or harm prevention would better describe this. Harm reduction implies there is already some harm, so in the context of drug use I don't see it as discouraging whatsoever because you have already acknowledged and accepted the behaviour.

Of course it is deterrent in nature. If you're interested in learning about a drug so as to lessen harm, you are less likely to take more than you know is relatively safe, or less likely to do it often, compared to those who don't inquire or don't care to look. If there was such a thing as a completely safe and legal drug, then the drug info you learn would be nothing of a deterrent. Good HR doesn't attempt to hide or play down the dangers of drug use, so if you're reading about a drug and it's dangers, you are in essence receiving deterrent based advice. I've never heard of HR organisations ever recommending or encouraging drug use and I've been following harm minimisation since the mid 90s.

This - "Like it or not, one of the roles of the mods is to step in when they consider a poster strays off course, is reckless, or contravenes guidelines, even when well intended." - stood out to me as well, because it seems like there is a lot of discussion in those codeine threads that couldn't be described as off course or contravening guidelines, yet you are still choosing to censor that and end further discussion on the drug and HR issues surrounding it.

As I've also said, there will likely be parts of those threads that are merged with a mega thread or whatever is decided. If you are concerned that important info you contributed could be lost, then when the time comes ask a mod to considering including these posts. The threads aren't gone, everything is currently still accessible.

The fact is that the majority of questions in AusDD could easily be put in OD, BDD, DiTM, ED or CD. There isn't a whole helluva lot that is in here you would say is totally Australian centric. Keeping this in mind, it seems a given that you are playing on the sense of community and should therefore allow a social community to exist.

I believe I've already responded to this.

For the record I would be devastated for Bluelight to go from a HR focused forum to a socially focused one, but I would also be devastated to see it become a place where opinions and experience are frowned upon and only FAQ's and fact sheets are allowed.

If you mean Bluelight as in AusDD, then at least we agree on that

When it comes down to it, I guess we have a different view on how the forum should be prioritised. That's fine. If/when you become a mod you can institute any changes your co-mods agree with :D


I'd like to also address another comment made regarding Bluelight being a democratic community. Strictly speaking, that's not the case, for this forum at least. Mods aren't elected by posters, the candidates are short listed by mods. Mods can ask individuals their opinion - I was asked for my opinion on the last mod candidates. But in the end, moderators want to pick those who are most likely to have a similar philosophy. Also, I've yet to see a mod elected who hasn't found the job to be more than they expected. No matter what decision you make on some issues, there will be someone who disagrees - often strongly. It's seldom a walk in the park and the responsibility of the position usually results in a new mod re-evaluating some things. Accordingly, when the forum runs smoothly, there's little need for mods to close or edit much, so mods try to do things as smoothly as possible.

Hope this has addressed some of your points DM.

 

[Busty St Clare]

Lol at democracy. Just because the majority wants something, it doesn't make it right. More than half the population are idiots and I personally would hate to see the day when numbers alone decide an issue.

I don't really see a problem with a more strict image/moderating of ADD. The majority of posts that are censored are usually heading in the dick sizing direction. I see no real benefit in banter between BLers describing what they are on tonight or how they can handle "X" amount better compared to the next or dangerous and misleading information.

Friendly chit chat is fine but believe it or not you don't have to travel that far to find Aus social. I know in the past few posters jump between the two for one reason or another, but perhaps it's time there was more harmony between the two sub forums. Perhaps if Aus social was allowed to become slightly more drug centric compared to now we might be able to have a community feel return to Australia BL. If you want to head over to European DD you might see how having one forum creates a messy and disjointed forum. Modding there is a lot more lenient with everything from pricing to pseudo sourcing mixed into serious and not so serious discussion. It makes it very difficult to use it as a resource.

I would like to see the modding of ADD and Aus social be combined or at least have some sort of common co operation between each group. Aus social 10 years ago (I guess at the height of PLUR) was a fun place to discuss the not so harm reduction topics, it just slowly evolved into a closed shop of chin strokers and decidedly jaded posters who now longer wanted to be seen as a group of drug takers. Not for one moment do I want it to turn into an Ocker Lounge, but I think it should be broadened to take some of the over flow from ADD that still have value but not necessarily from a harm reduction prospective. A thread recently that headed towards politics that was closed was an excellent example of what should be maintained. I for one would love to hear debate on issues that are important to this community that doesn't strictly fall into the harm reduction field. All it would take is a gentle encouragement to take these topics across (or is it down?) a few pages without such a disciplinary approach by the mods. Sure it may put a few of the Aus social regulars noses out of joint but to be honest they might just have to fuck off to Facebook if they don't like it.

 

[drug_mentor]

That was a well thought out post PD and you definately make some strong arguments for your case.

I feel the regional discussion thing is a bit of a cop out though, because I do concede there are other region specific issues in relation to drugs and drug use than I may have previously implied, by and large there still aren't many! Even assuming there were a shitload of things that were truly Australian Centric, the fact is that the bulk of questions/threads in AusDD would have a hard time making a case why they belonged there if anyone actually called it into question. Mainly because a large percentage of questions relate specifically just to general drug dosing, combo's and opinions which basically all belong in BDD or OD. You cite different impurities or cuts as a regional specific thing but I don't know about that, it has more to do with cook experience and access to precursors which means pretty much anyone anywhere could sell you kouta or sell you crud, its not a regional thing. Even if there was more variation that I seem to think, impurities and cuts is seldom something duscussed on here and furthermore there isn't much logic as to why cutters would be drastically different from one place to another.

Other than that, theres shitloads of news articles and while most (and I will take this oppurtunity to say it REALLY burns my ass to see non Australian stories posted here) are Australian centric so could almost be construed as relevant, every other region accepts that DitM is where these belong so why can't we?

Also, there are so many threads that stay open and have ZERO HR value at all. More than anything this makes me think we are out to please the media now. There was a period of time with 3 or 4 MDMA reminicisng threads on the front page, or the "what would happen if drugs were legalised parts 1,2,3,etc. Not having a shot you Mazdan I am sure you have noticed I posted in them. I feel these threads have their place (Maybe not reminicing about the MDMA days, that gets OLD real quick.) The MDMA and codeine are good threads to use as examples, where one thread (the codeine one) contained a lot of HR, a little bit of banter and maybe perhaps was a tad encouraging at times. Comare to the the MDMA threads that offered no HR value, they were just a place for people to vent and go off topic. It seems blatantly obvious to me that the things being censored and edited fit more in line with with looking good. The codeine on one hand should be hidden because it would look bad if the media got hold of it, yet you don't give a shit about codeine which is much more HR relevant than how good pills 5 years ago are. Why? Because if the media ever wrote a story about the "pill drought" it would look like the pigs are doing their job properly.

It is my belief codeine will nevr be banned, the Government is too arrogant. Marijuana and probably atleast MDMA and LSD woud likely be all legal if Governments could admit they were wrong every now and then.

I must reiterate, I love my AusDD and I am certainly not asking for it to be scrapped, but it would be nice of someone to acknowledge that the HR benefit of a regional forum as opposed to drug specific ones is negligible. Infact if you want to talk about keeping the information on here more accessible and easy to find then doing forums by drug would probably uncomplicate things, where currently if a question I wanted answered on say morphine could be answered in N&SADD and not in OD, but being in Australia I will probably search OD first, hence making it harder for me to find. Keeping in mind that as far as your stated goal of keeping information easily accessible it would make more sense to do it by class than by drug than region so there must be another reason. By continuing down that logical path

Just to set the record straight P_D, and this isn't a suck up, but I have known who you are (forum, not r/l so dw )for your immense knowledge and effort you have put into HR, probably for several years before you were ever familiar with my posts.p

You are right to say Bluelight isn't a democracy, and I generally hold my tongue and trust the mods know best when people start making ptoblems. I got mad respect for the mod stick, and at the end of thrday its you guys that are steering the ship do you ought to sail in whatever you see fit. I do think its only fair regular posters get their say, but that is the point of this thread really. I mean if we can't all have some level of say its hard to argue that Bluelight is a real community.

If you are short staffed you could always get more, I would put my hand up. I stod down from DitM a few months ago due to study, I am still studying but not as much as pkanned and probably would have time for the gig. I think with hoptis MIA and lil stepping down there a good chance an extra team member or two would help.

This thread kind of rocked the boat a bit, but its good to shake things up every now and then. Seriously though, I made this thread hopegul there might be a few changes but I am not holding my breath. Just to get various members input would be good, also I am curious if Bluelight and/or AusDD have any non generic goals and if so why are they the goals and how do we reach them. I know have in the past pondered about the future of Bluelight and where we are headed. I think a clear definition of how/why and where we are going would go a long way to ending blatant disregard and questioning if the rules.

Sorry, this ended up epid. Fucking charged on 4MAR typing away, before I know it there chunks of text. Haha.

 

[drug_mentor]

Lol at democracy. Just because the majority wants something, it doesn't make it right. More than half the population are idiots and I personally would hate to see the day when numbers alone decide an issue.

I don't really see a problem with a more strict image/moderating of ADD. The majority of posts that are censored are usually heading in the dick sizing direction. I see no real benefit in banter between BLers describing what they are on tonight or how they can handle "X" amount better compared to the next or dangerous and misleading information.

Friendly chit chat is fine but believe it or not you don't have to travel that far to find Aus social. I know in the past few posters jump between the two for one reason or another, but perhaps it's time there was more harmony between the two sub forums. Perhaps if Aus social was allowed to become slightly more drug centric compared to now we might be able to have a community feel return to Australia BL.

A few things Busty, first I am not a big people person and tend to think many are idiots. At the same time democracy is fair, what are you going to do rate people on intelligence and smart peoples vote counts for more? Thats elitist fucking bullshit!

The dicksizing thing I agree with, but I think there is a very damn conservative approach to whats considered dick sizing. There are plenty of reasons to mention a dose, habit, just slipped out, or just trying to convey the level you were on. Just because you give a figure doesn't make it a competition that must be won.

I like your idea about drug discussion allowed in Aus Social, the current situation has sort of made it no mans land for those of use who like to banter about illicit substances. I definately think either AusDD needs to get more lax or Aus Social does, we should be able to have a friendy chat with wasted felliw BLers when it tickles our fancy!

 

[Busty St Clare]

Democracy might seem fair but it doesn't make it correct. In days gone by if you wanted to be part of the ruling elite you had to marry into it. In other words you proved yourself and were asked. If the people felt the time was right for change everyone was expelled and it started over. Nothing bullshit about wanting the best in charge not just a show of numbers.

 

[drug_mentor]

In theory you may be correct, the problems arise when figuring out exactly who gets to determine who is "best" in the first place.

 

[phase_dancer]

I feel the regional discussion thing is a bit of a cop out though, because I do concede there are other region specific issues in relation to drugs and drug use than I may have previously implied, by and large there still aren't many! Even assuming there were a shitload of things that were truly Australian Centric, the fact is that the bulk of questions/threads in AusDD would have a hard time making a case why they belonged there if anyone actually called it into question.

I think it depends on what you regard as area specific criteria. To me, it includes any drug reference to locally available products, any technique (manufacture, use etc) or global comparison discussion. Just looking at the front page, most threads in some way or another cover one or more of these areas.

But even if the number of threads discussing regional specific topics is less today, that by itself wouldn't make the forum useless, so I do it find it hard to see the point of your argument. Some forums on BL, for the most part are hardly active, but they still serve a useful purpose.

With your chosen pseudonym I'm sure you also appreciate the value of peer education. Having newbees raise basic questions here not only helps with stimulating that sense of community so often referred to, but it also further promotes the HR concept off the board. Among their peers, Aus Blers are often seen as the better informed of their groups, and as with most common interests, meeting like minded people online fosters a community feel and a sense of belonging.

In reaffirming or otherwise the value of regional forums such as Aus DD, I suggest thinking about what would change if the forum was merged with the focus forums. Trying to find anything specific about the Aus scene would be more difficult as relevant stuff would be fragmented, possibly scattered between several threads. Another benefit of separating forums is that when the time comes around for mods to trim threads -- deleting the old -- local mods are able to decide what's most important-relevant to their area, and archive it.

You cite different impurities or cuts as a regional specific thing but I don't know about that, it has more to do with cook experience and access to precursors which means pretty much anyone anywhere could sell you kouta or sell you crud, its not a regional thing.

Variation can certainly be regional specific. You've essentially said that. To give a few examples; Western Australia has more of an industry that employs a reactant chemical (technically, not a precursor) used in birch reduction, so naturally, this method is more commonly used in WA than in other parts of Australia. Regional specificity within Australia!! . I know I'm taking you somewhat out of context... but since we're picking at straws

Most of us who know a bit about meth will know it's often made from pseudoephedrine, but a lot of people don't realise that until early 00s the method used here was essentially unique to Australia. For years after the web was first abuzz with synthesis talk on meth and MDMA, this method was no where to be found. Yet cooks throughout Australia were firmly entrenched in producing meth via this technique. The basic procedure first popped up online when an edition of the Journal of Clandestine Laboratory (a restricted publication) was posted. A small entry at the end of the paper described the method. Now, some 10+ years later, many have associated that article with the meth wave, that over the following years swept parts of the US.

Then there's the home bake heroin techniques that were rumoured to have first emerged in NZ. It was one of the only backyard synths going on in NZ when I grew up. We hardly ever heard of a speed lab bust during the 70's, but there were plenty of home bake labs.

There's also another subject you mention which I'll briefly comment on. 4-MAR. Firstly, if 4-MAR is available in Australia, and if it's fairly widespread, then that in itself makes Aus very unique. If you search for evidence of 4-MAR being currently available in other parts of the world, you won't find any (of course I might be looking in the wrong places

While I can't say 100% the stuff being sold as 4-MAR isn't that drug, I'm highly skeptical of such claims. I'll explain why in the appropriate thread.

Even if there was more variation that I seem to think, impurities and cuts is seldom something duscussed on here and furthermore there isn't much logic as to why cutters would be drastically different from one place to another.

Well I dunno, I've done what I can on this - mentioned impurities. A year or so ago I prepared something quite lengthy on levels of mercury in amalgam produced MDMA, but for various reasons I haven't posted it. Still might though. I would like to see more discussion on this topic, but until we have some analytical data on these impurities, threads on the subject become increasingly speculative, and invariably go off course.

As for cutters. That can definitely be regionally specific, particularly when they first emerge. The fact is that speed and coke in Australia could be cut with anything. Some years ago I was told about a guy who spent months perfecting his "coke". Veterans couldn't tell the difference initially; same "glug" and just the right numbness and consistency with that sudden alertness typical of coke. Yet the product contained no coke at all, just his "magic" combination which I believe was probably a mixture of a local anaesthetic, caffeine, meth, possibly other pharmaceuticals, and some secret bulking agents. Anyway, the point is, geographically, while world trends are certainly useful in predicting Australian patterns of use, local variations can and do occur.

Other than that, theres shitloads of news articles and while most (and I will take this oppurtunity to say it REALLY burns my ass to see non Australian stories posted here) are Australian centric so could almost be construed as relevant, every other region accepts that DitM is where these belong so why can't we?

There's probably no-one who's campaigned more for changes to the way AusDD handles media than me. However, I also see the importance in presenting articles with HR value, and I'm sure all Aus staff agree these have a place here. I'd like to think we mods will address the media issue in the near future (it's one of those issues -- if we all had long beards, we'd be stroking 'em . Anyway, with the awareness generated in recent forum discussions I think things have improved a lot lately. Personally, I also like to see media articles used more often as an in-text or quoted reference to a broader topic, but I agree much drug related media doesn't have a place here. We've taken pill info requests to a sub forum, which has been a great improvement imo and we're looking at how best to manage other common topics. Perhaps something similar could occur with general media articles...?

There was a period of time with 3 or 4 MDMA reminicisng threads on the front page, or the "what would happen if drugs were legalised parts 1,2,3,etc. Not having a shot you Mazdan I am sure you have noticed I posted in them. I feel these threads have their place (Maybe not reminicing about the MDMA days, that gets OLD real quick.)

A lot of people responded positively to the recent reminiscing thread, and in a way it does have some HR value, if only to illustrate that when MDMA was plentiful, there was more chance a pill was what it was expected to be. Reflected in that is the increased risks associated with taking an unknown today. I don't think it did anything to quell the curiosity of our MDMA inexperienced readers , but neither did the incredibly valuable piperazine thread/s (ref: kingpin007).

It seems blatantly obvious to me that the things being censored and edited fit more in line with with looking good. The codeine on one hand should be hidden because it would look bad if the media got hold of it, yet you don't give a shit about codeine which is much more HR relevant than how good pills 5 years ago are. Why? Because if the media ever wrote a story about the "pill drought" it would look like the pigs are doing their job properly.

I don't know whether codeine is your DOC, but I really feel you are taking things out of proportion. I wouldn't care if media picked up something on BL and ran with it, unless it directly affects the future of the board or the safety of it's members. And both are unlikely imo. Media look at this place for similar reasons that academics and LE do; for a local perspective, new trends often appear here first. Media are usually behind the eightball anyway. Your statement is confusing in a way because on one hand you're suggesting that we mods are trying to hide the codeine issue -- that's not the case, I assure you -- yet you worry media may grab something from here relating to 5 years ago and run with a story about police effectiveness. If exposure equates to attention, then sooner or later, having the board full of fragmented codeine threads will attract the media. And don't forget there are pharma industry advocates for tighter restrictions on codeine.

You say you don't think codeine will ever go to prescription only, but a lot of people said that about pseudoephedrine. Back when homebake heroin was common, codeine products were in some ways less available than today. Pharmacists knew about homebake, and in general, where I lived at least, products weren't sold in supermarkets. I've no doubt that if the problem of codeine abuse became widespread enough, tougher measures would be introduced. I'd also wager that therapists will soon start to see significant increases in clients having problems with codeine, or who may have started their opiate/opioid journey with codeine. Likewise, I'd also be surprised if this trend isn't more closely monitored in times to come.

I must reiterate, I love my AusDD and I am certainly not asking for it to be scrapped, but it would be nice of someone to acknowledge that the HR benefit of a regional forum as opposed to drug specific ones is negligible. Infact if you want to talk about keeping the information on here more accessible and easy to find then doing forums by drug would probably uncomplicate things, where currently if a question I wanted answered on say morphine could be answered in N&SADD and not in OD, but being in Australia I will probably search OD first, hence making it harder for me to find. Keeping in mind that as far as your stated goal of keeping information easily accessible it would make more sense to do it by class than by drug than region so there must be another reason. By continuing down that logical path

I think I've covered this already, but just to add something. Many of the comments received from first time browsers are about issues to do with AusDD, as many feel they will more easily find what they're looking for here, indicating many of their questions are regional related. Quite logical really

Just to set the record straight P_D, and this isn't a suck up, but I have known who you are (forum, not r/l so dw )for your immense knowledge and effort you have put into HR, probably for several years before you were ever familiar with my posts.p

Thanks, and even though I might seem to be on the front foot in these replies, don't think I don't appreciate the efforts behind your posts drug_mentor. I seldom get over to DiTM,, but I've always enjoyed your posts here. Passion and drive are wonderful things, and you've plenty of both :D

You are right to say Bluelight isn't a democracy, and I generally hold my tongue and trust the mods know best when people start making ptoblems. I got mad respect for the mod stick, and at the end of thrday its you guys that are steering the ship do you ought to sail in whatever you see fit. I do think its only fair regular posters get their say, but that is the point of this thread really. I mean if we can't all have some level of say its hard to argue that Bluelight is a real community.

No argument there. Change can often upset, particularly when it comes with little warning. Hopefully the emotion stirred by the codeine issue and the ensuing discussions will produce a good outcome for all

If you are short staffed you could always get more, I would put my hand up. I stod down from DitM a few months ago due to study, I am still studying but not as much as pkanned and probably would have time for the gig. I think with hoptis MIA and lil stepping down there a good chance an extra team member or two would help.

Hoptis MIA? Nah, he's omnipresent isn't he? - well, he is to some of us Hopefully he'll be back in full force in the not too distant future. As for an upcoming position? Well, I won't be around for much longer, so there will certainly be a need for a new mod or 2 soon. atm we 3 seem to be holding the fort ok (although I must say, these types of threads demand a bit more input).

also I am curious if Bluelight and/or AusDD have any non generic goals and if so why are they the goals and how do we reach them. I know have in the past pondered about the future of Bluelight and where we are headed. I think a clear definition of how/why and where we are going would go a long way to ending blatant disregard and questioning if the rules.

I think the common goal of Bluelight is to stay at the forefront of drug discussion. There will definitely be more discussion on this subject...

Sorry, this ended up epid. Fucking charged on 4MAR typing away, before I know it there chunks of text. Haha.

 

[drug_mentor]

You know Ibis warned me that you would tear me to shreds and I have to say most of your post is hard to rebutt.

I think that you raise some good points about certain things that are relevant to this particular region but being honest they do not make up the bulk of threads posted here.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=512520
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=512317
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=509425
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=511944
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=511907
As I write this post with a few seond glance there are that many threads on the front page unrelated to region. BTW not taking a shot at the posters, because I have made technically OT threads in AusDD before, my point is that this ofrum obviously has space for things that aren't solely region specific.

I guess what I am illustrating with those links is that although you do make a strong case for the regional forums presence, you would have a hard time arguing that it often sticks to that criteria. Given the recent crusade against OT posts in threads perhaps it is time the same philosophy was applied to OT threads which could be moved to appropriate forums. In my opinion this shouldn't happen, but what I am saying is if you think of whats relative HR specific to our region compared to on a whole there isn't a great deal. Obviously we are here for other reasons too and maybe we ought to start caring a bit less how we look.

BTW P_D glad you side with me on the media because I have been saying that was ridiculous for months! I think in a lot of ways we want to see Bluelight headed in the same direction, perhaps our ideas of how to get there differ slightly.

It is a shame to hear you wont be around much longer, because peeved as I am about my precious codeine discussion , you have certainly been a great assett to this site over the years ad this forum probably wouldn't be where it is today without your contribution.

Perhaps the forum should take more of a focus on issues that are truly Australian related. I would be interested in reading some stuff on different impurities in different rgions for various reasons among other things you mentioned.

I think when I started this I was a little angry because I felt like I deserved a heads up before a thread I worked hard on and was allowed to stay open for so long got closed. Looking at it more objectively now, I have perhaps blown some issues out of proportion, at the same time I do think it is definately time to outline a common goal.

 

[berocca]

Hi,

Thought I'd throw in some feedback as I'm mainly a lurker, no idea how many of us are out there...

I would imagine that most of the reasons people read/post in AusDD are because they have a couple of things in common - they're interested in drugs and are Australian or coming to visit.

From a HR (Harm reduction) point of view, I think making HR the most important thing is a noble goal and fully understand the intent of the mod's. However people are more likely to read posts if they can relate in some way and/or it's enjoyable and hopefully at the same time become more informed. If reading AusDD becomes more like a chore than a hobby due to excessive moderation the result is that less people read the forum and (key point) less harm _overall_ is reduced despite the intention.

Cases where posters who are new to bluelight have their threads closed are likely to get scared off or feel bad thinking they've done something wrong, thus potentially missing out on information that would have been extremely beneficial health-wise. My general feeling is that the 'tone' of these sorts of instances on the whole isn't as welcoming as they used to be.

Relating to the above, this comment by drug_mentor stood out to me:

Many regulars in that thread, including myself, felt we earned the right to a bit of fun if we are willing to answer the same god damn question 3 times a week and I feel that way to this day. Theres the HR aspect to it, the fact is half the knowledgable posters in the thread probably wouldn't of been checking in if it weren't for the social aspect of it too, but it seems that moderators often forget this easily.

- which strikes me as the right sort of balance.

Of course some threads are going to be more focused (e.g. the 2 main LSD ones) and it makes sense to moderate these more strictly whereas others are more general and be left moderated less strictly.

Threads where people are talking about dosages and what not after they have tolerances make me worry about first timers taking way too much based on the information they've read. If they've made it this far then one hopes they do enough online research to make sensible decision. I don't know if there's a solution here though - at some point you can't protect people from themselves.

One of the other things that we lose by the excessive moderation / closing / joining of threads is that it's gives us a loose indicator about what drugs people are currently using or interested in.

All that being said, the above is just my opinion and I appreciate the time and effort the various mod's put in. Thanks people.

Interesting note: Ironically I started reading this thread just after a CWE and Bluelight AusDD was responsible for triggering my interest / curiousity.

 

[Verybuffed]

Well, I won't be around for much longer

Please tell us that this is not a permanent thing phase but rather that your going into "hibernation" again?

 

[phase_dancer]

Please tell us that this is not a permanent thing phase but rather that your going into "hibernation" again?

I have a couple of other HR projects I need to put some energy into but I'll still be poking my head in from time to time.

Thanks for your comments berocca.