HARM REDUCTION AND RC's

[hamhurricane]

^^^
Even though thats true i cant think of a single UK based RC vendor that touts its chems as pychoactive drugs, a huge lesson was learned after web trypt if not by users most def by vendors. These bk-mdma sources likely make large profit from international sales, they wouldent want to jeopardize those sales with some pesky words of caution that allude to consumption.

Its like sex education in catholic school, you cant teach people to be safe with the sex they're forbidden to have.

 

[delta_9]

^oh of course, but that's not what I meant. I hear ya though

 

[Tchort]

Why don't we go back to the lessons learned from the first generation of mail order RC's? The late '50s-late '60s was a time when the Schedule I PiHKAL/TiHKAL substances were making the rounds and becoming more popular and available, most notably LSD. H.S. Thompson writes in Hells Angels about members of the group consuming exceptionally large doses of LSD without regard, along with other drugs, legal and otherwise (including IV DMT). When everything except Marijuana, Cocaine and Heroin and prescription drugs (despite ease to acquire) were legal, DOB, STP/DOM, MDA, PCP, etc were making the rounds as RC's ordered from pharmaceutical companies and wholesalers out of catalogues and magazines.
Today we're making the same mistakes. But it can't be helped. This is another topic brought up (concerning then legal LSD) in Hells Angels- should only serious 'researchers' holding controlled studies be the only people allowed to consume LSD legally? Alcohol is an example of what happens with every and any drug. When any mind altering substance is made available to humanity, there will be those who act without regard for consequences or their own well being, or that of anyone else. Salvia Divinorum has very limited appeal, most people would not find it enjoyable in the least- but being legal has led plenty of people to try it and use it regularly. So we either have to have blanket legalization with harm reduction or blanket illegalization with harm reduction.

Either way, there will always be people who OD, cause accidents or tragedies, lose their mind, become hopelessly addicted, etc. No substance is safe from these consequences, legal, illegal, obscure.

 

[phase_dancer]

good point, but the analog act only applies to people in the US.

Don't forget Australia. With the recent introduction of the act, which includes a "pharmacologically similar" clause, Queensland probably has the toughest analogue legislation in the world.

 

[Jamshyd]

I must say though... it seems that people here think it is the Analogue act (or similar legal nitpicks) that is their biggest of problems.

Do you have a licensed lab, or otherwise work with powdered chemicals on a day-to-day basis? I know a few reading this do, but most do not.

A baggy of white powder in a private citizen's mailbox is enough reason for arrest, and the simple fact that googling the name of said (usually conveniently labeled) white powder provides ample info on its psychedelic activity (or whatever high) is enough evidence that jane doe ordered DRUGS over the NET. Do you think, at this point, the jury or judge will even care about chemical technicalities?

 

[dtugg]

Why don't we go back to the lessons learned from the first generation of mail order RC's? The late '50s-late '60s was a time when the Schedule I PiHKAL/TiHKAL substances were making the rounds and becoming more popular and available, most notably LSD.

Didn't Shulgin invent the large majority of the drugs in PiKHAL and TiHKAL (in the '80s)?

 

[tobala]

He did, but it was more like the 60's and 70's. Maybe in the early 80's he and his research group (friends) were nibbling on these molecules.

 

[fastandbulbous]

I really hope we don't see opioid research chemicals, that would be far too dangerous and is the reason things like the analogue act were created (the alpha-methyl-fentanyl scandal).

Thing is, a demand for designer opiates (however deranged that might be) combined with an obsession with getting the most potent drug possible means that it's only a question of time before somebody pops their clogs if things like benzimidazole, diphenylheptane etc compounds appear on the RC market. If you consider that even something like pyrrolidylthiambutene, which has an active dose of 10mg, is going to lead to deaths, then opioids active in the microgram range like the fentanyls, etonitazene etc are going to have users dropping like somebody was selling ebola. You only have to read about people using RCs by eyeballing them because they wont shell out for a set of scales to realize that opioids with doses of 50ug etc are a disaster waiting to happen. Look at how mant people have fucked up with an extrodinarily potent stimulant like desoxypipradrol; luckily (or actually by design), the pipradrol/desoxypipradrol series are very benign physically which makes them very forgiving (well phyisically, psychologically some people paid the price for incautious use when they couldn't sleep for several days from a single dose). Transfer that attitude to an etonitazene derivative and the bodies will start pilling up

With any luck, vendors will look at the dose, toxicity etc of RC opiates and think,"fuck that for a game of soldiers" as it's possible to ingest a fatal dose just putting the stuff into packaging, never mind actually intentionally ingesting it. Handling stuff that potent requires specialist eqipment and some experience.

It's this very reason that makes me disinclined to discuss the highly potent mu agonists, despite having a shit load of pharmacological data, because somebody will inadvisedly think it a good idea to distribute one of them - never underestimate greed & stupidity of some people when they think they've found a potential gold mine...

 

[swilow]

I have noticed some opiate RC's as such...not sure if they were theoretical or real, but the idea scared me. Research chemical users are bound to be cracked down upon if they get synthed I reckon. The deaths will ony occurr within a matter of time, not if.

 

[swilow]

Didn't Shulgin invent the large majority of the drugs in PiKHAL and TiHKAL (in the '80s)?

I don't know about PiHKAL, but I know that a lot of the tryptamines were not specifically of his own invention....

 

[fastandbulbous]

Actually, it's only really some of the ring substituted higher N,N-dialkyltryptamines from TIHKAL that are Shulgin's creations. All of the N,N-dimethyl compounds other than the methylenedioxys are naturally occuring, the N,N-diethyls were known about in the 60's. Add to that the fact that the alpha-alkyltryptamines were used as clinical antidepressants in the 60's, the beta carbolines are natural and LSD is Albert Hoffman's and that leaves about half that are Shulgins. That's in contrast to PIHKAL, where a good 80-90 percent are credited to Shulgin

 

[ex-amine]

^^^^
And Correct me if i'm wrong but the 6 position sustituted LSd-analogs are Nichols inventions. (al-lad , pro-lad , eth-lad , Lasba ect...)

-----

On the other hand , RC-opiods have been around for ages ,
definetly since the early nineties , luckly there hasn't been drawn much attention to it and usually it was made in small batches for some small circles of users.

And yes , people have died on these.

 

[mad_scientist]

3-methylfentanyl and etonitazene have both been sold on the illicit market, mainly in Russia and other east european countries, and many deaths did result.

Difference is that when drugs are sold on the black market they are at least cut to whatever the dealers feel is an appropriate dilution, and generally will be sold to people who already have high opioid tolerance and are likely to know what to do if someone overdoses.

Killing your customers is bad for business no matter how unscrupulous you are, and no dealer will deliberately set out to sell lethal doses. Even in cases like that fentanyl-laced heroin I would imagine they were simply trying to boost the potency of heroin that had been cut too much and were just careless about how much fentanyl they added and how well mixed it was, rather than having actual homicidal intent.

On the other hand when opioids of this potency are sold as RCs over the internet they will be highly pure, most reputable RC suppliers ensure at least 90% purity and normally higher, and could be ordered by any curious teenager with daddy's credit card. This would be even more likely to cause widespread deaths than when they are sold on the black market by gangsters.

 

[mcwally]

ya the line between mass chemical weapon and a rec drug gets blurred with RC opiates lol, the russians used something like 3-methylfent in that theatre hostage thing a while back and pwnd everyone I think

I mean these things are for putting out elephants and rhinos also, I guess stims and trippy rcs are far more popular/practical because there is only so much respiratory depression you can endure b4 you kick the bucket. Also commercially downers would have been far more extensively researched and tested legitimately the way I see it because they have applications like hypnotic, sedative, anxiolytic, anaesthetic, immobilising, tranquilising and even as chem weapons. (benzos, barbs, opiates etc)

But hallucinogens/stims I imagine have more room for experimentation in the RC circles yeh? Im no expert just using logic correct me if im wrong

 

[MattPsy]

The psychedelics, while being terrifying in overdose, are rarely physically dangerous - this is the difference. If you're selling GABAergics or opiods as RCs this is where the trouble starts - people take too much, drink alcohol with them, mix othert drugs with them etc. If you do this with psychedelics you shit yourself you're so scared and then probably don't do it again... GABAergics or opioids, you may die. And if you don't you might have even had a good time and will do it again.