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Hallucinogen(-Induced) Persistent Perception Disorder caused by cholinergics

M

MurphyClox

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
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1,416
I frequently heard/read about HPPD caused by strong anticholinergics. I know, the 'evidence' is only anectodal, but I'd like to inquire a bit more. The stories I heard of included some quite potent compounds resp. mixtures, including JB-318, QNB and preparations from Solanaceae-species (like Datura, Belladonna, Hyoscyamusm which contain a mix of scopolamine, hyoscyamine and others).

My major questions in this respect:

1. Can anyone come up with more case reports. I'm not much interested in the (certainly fascinating) symptomatical details of the disorder, but rather in some more objective facts, including:
- What was the causing agent (kind, dosage, frequency of usage)?
- What is the current frequency of the occuring disorders, e.g. hallucinations, and how long ago is the causing incident by now?

2. Can anyone come up with a mechanism, by which this phenomenon is caused? I clearly make a difference between HPPD caused by psychedelics (e.g. LSD) vs. the ones caused by delirants (i.e. the focus of this thread).

Thanks for any constructive contributions.

Peace! Murphy
 
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Don't you mean anticholinergenics? Or is it possible to obtain HPPD from high doses of cholinergenics like nicotine?
 
Although I have no doubt that there is some chemical/neurological mechanism for HPPD, the more common psychedelic induced one isn't even understood so I don't think anyone can really comment on this one, it could be plasticity in the same sense as some feel HPPD is caused or it could be burned out serotonin receptors or anything, really. I feel HPPD is somewhat a learned obsession over visual disturbances more than just actual visual disturbances.
 
I've had severe, non-stop visual snow/aeropsia for at least five years now. The onset of this came shortly after I took 10 25mg tablets of diphenhydramine, unable to bear the thought of being awake even one second longer. (Unfortunately, I didn't really fall asleep; I just became extremely delirious, almost paralyzed, and somehow even more depressed.)
 
vortex30 said:
I feel HPPD is somewhat a learned obsession over visual disturbances more than just actual visual disturbances.
Click to expand...

This doesn't appear to be true in my case - although it may be true for others. Frequently, I will sit in a dark room and just watch the visual snow. The intensity appears to change now and again: Some days the points of light are so bright and move so frenetically that it's impossible to ignore them and other times they are so dim and move so languorously that it's almost as if I had normal vision. And I tend to see halos only when I'm sleep-deprived or have been suddenly awoken before getting an adequate amount of sleep. In the latter case, staring at a street light (or whatever), I can actually perceive the halos shrinking until they reach normal size - at which point I feel fully alert, the grogginess having dissipated entirely.
 
MurphyClox said:
1. Can anyone come up with more case reports. I'm not much interested in the (certainly fascinating) symptomatical details of the disorder, but rather in some more objective facts, including:
- What was the causing agent (kind, dosage, frequency of usage)?
- What is the current frequency of the occuring disorders, e.g. hallucinations, and how long ago is the causing incident by now?
Click to expand...

I'll bet it will be difficult to find academic/clinical case reports (especially at public disposal). NODID (www.nodid.org) appears to be doing research. Maybe you could contact them?

But however you go about finding answers to your above two questions, they will probably be answered exactly how medical staff came about them: surveys. You could just as easily set up a survey, and find a large population of drug users to answer it.
 
Damn - i wish i read this before.

My vision has definately been altered since a week ago when i took quite alot of diphenhydramine :(
 
Chip Hitler said:
You could just as easily set up a survey, and find a large population of drug users to answer it.
Click to expand...

Yep, it was one purpose of this thread to collect personal experience from Bluelighters.

rickolasnice said:
Damn - i wish i read this before.

My vision has definately been altered since a week ago when i took quite alot of diphenhydramine :(
Click to expand...

In this context I remind all readers of ADD to check THIS THREAD! The so-called 'spring cleaning' is supposed to clear out all threads (meaningful ones, useless ones...ALL!) if they hadn't been marked before. Personally, I prefer a "delete nothing"-approach for ADD in particular and I would be pleased to see others join my opinion. Please check the thread and post!

- Murphy
 
shibireru said:
This doesn't appear to be true in my case - although it may be true for others. Frequently, I will sit in a dark room and just watch the visual snow. The intensity appears to change now and again: Some days the points of light are so bright and move so frenetically that it's impossible to ignore them and other times they are so dim and move so languorously that it's almost as if I had normal vision. And I tend to see halos only when I'm sleep-deprived or have been suddenly awoken before getting an adequate amount of sleep. In the latter case, staring at a street light (or whatever), I can actually perceive the halos shrinking until they reach normal size - at which point I feel fully alert, the grogginess having dissipated entirely.
Click to expand...

Shibi, whenever I read your posts I feel so sorry for you. You often write with such passion and it cuts straight to my heart. I hope you get better someday soon :).
 
Last year i've had an accidently trip on diphyndramine and since then i have some sort of HPPD. I was coming down of MDPV and when to get "sleeping pills" i ended up taking 10 and out of nowhere started tripping...
Ever since then i see ghost like "waves" when i look in the dark. Its not the normal kind of HPPD but way differend.
 
Interesting! Is there any way to influence (i.e. augment or attenuate) those "waves"? Just as an example: Do you recognize any alteration when smoking cannabis? Or when being under stress?

- Murphy
 
MurphyClox said:
Interesting! Is there any way to influence (i.e. augment or attenuate) those "waves"? Just as an example: Do you recognize any alteration when smoking cannabis? Or when being under stress?

- Murphy
Click to expand...
No i've never noticed a difference. I try not to look in the dark when i'm going asleep tough, when i keep looking i start to feel a "presence" and i seem to see ghost- wave like hands, faces and stuff, i dont really like it.
 
Oh that was one quick answer, thx! :)
Another question in this respect: Do you observe the same patterns when simply closing your eyes? I mean, it should theoretically be the same as when looking into the dark. Or not?

- Murphy
 
MurphyClox said:
Oh that was one quick answer, thx! :)
Another question in this respect: Do you observe the same patterns when simply closing your eyes? I mean, it should theoretically be the same as when looking into the dark. Or not?

- Murphy
Click to expand...

No, i only notice it when actually looking in the dark strange enough.
 
One of my best friends from when I was younger is now schizophrenic, so I don't know how much that affects his ability to perceive shit about himself...but...he loved doing shit like Datura, and diphenhydramine. I don't know anyone else who ever enjoyed those drugs to the extent that he did. Anyhow, he now gets "followed" by shadow creatures. I used to have some of the side effects he talked about after my several years of hardcore drug abuse (of all kinds), but it's been 6 or 7 years now and he's only getting worse, little by little. I really, truly think that the anticholinergics he ingested knowingly and willingly in large doses are responsible for some of his "off" thought processes. Although I believe that marijuana probably brought out his latent schizophrenia. He was already quite crazy.
 
^Without disrespecting the fate of your friend, I have to emphasize that the whole issue of persistent disorders caused by any drug is complicated by the cases, in which latent mental diseases 'just' broke out. You already suggested such a case happened with your friend. I'm hesitant to consider all cases of HPPD to be latent diseases that just broke out, but in fact, this is an option to be considered.

On the other hand sounds the pathology of MeDieViL not like such a case. But well, I'm not a psychologist or anything related, it was just a guess.

- Murphy
 
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