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Guards tear down Aboriginal protesters' shelter

you know what's really really ironic about this whole apology debate is that a week ago in the news aboriginal elders in halls creek were asking childcare authorities to TAKE THE MISTREATED AND UNCARED FOR CHILDREN into emergency care 8o
 
*edit* off topic
 
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keej: Semantics, you bastard. ;)

sor·ry
Feeling or expressing sympathy, pity, or regret

You can be sorry without having committed the crimes yourself. None of the original aborigines are alive however their relatives still feel the effects of the actions of the english settlers - to them the link is not tenuous.
 
keej said:
I'm not sorry for what they did, because I didn't fucking do it.
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well I am sorry for what they did, because i think that all people (living or dead) who go or went around murdering people, and in general causing them pain and suffering, are a bunch of heartless fucking morons. therefore i don't see how saying sorry is inappropriate given that i personally do feel pity and sympathy for the aboriginal people of australia, and i do regret what happened to them, even though i may have not directly caused it.

edit: just read the above two posts. was busy checking my own dictionary definition, whilst up_all_night had already posted the definition that i was reading.
 
See, I think sorry is the best word for that exact reason. That way, it can be seen as an apology [which I think it should be] or it can simply be expressing regret at a chain of events.

And I think the definition I used is more in line with common usage. When you hear something bad that has happened to a friend, eg their mother dying, what do you say? Generally, 'I'm sorry' or 'I'm sorry to hear that.' It has nothing to do with your actions, but that's the way you express your regret at the news.
 
How about instead of sorry, we say that we wish it hadn't turned out that way. Sorry is the wrong goddamn word to use, and the points people are making about why we should say sorry could be resolved by expressing that we believe it was a bad thing that happened.

I can't speak on behalf of the people that committed these acts 200 years ago because of the tenuous link that we *may* be distant relatives, or because I've possibly benefited from their actions. I'm not sorry for what they did, because I didn't fucking do it. I can't even speak for my parents, or anyone who isn't myself. What gives us the right to apologise for what they did? All we can do is say we don't agree with it.
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You live here because all that shit happened. Saying you don't agree with it or it is not your fault seems a little rich when you live off the fruits of what happened.
 
keej: The hardass obviously didn't understand the sentiment behind the words then.

We're going in circles, but I'm really surprised that's your view. Are you just bored at work and stirring shit? ;)

I don't see how saying 'it's just the way things go' is productive or helpful. I'm not saying we, as individuals, should be crying ourselves to sleep at night and accepting personal responsiblity, but it's impossible to escape the fact that we were invaders and we took away their land and killed a lot of their people. What about social responsibility? What about caring about humanity? Take blame out of the equation and I still think there's a good case for our country to recognise what happened to them 200 years ago. And really, in the grand scheme of things, 200 years is not very long at all.
 
Well how precious! Are you happy now that you've established that you are not personally responsible for the genocide of Indigenous Australians? I don't recall anyone accusing you personally but is that all out of the way now?

I ask because, you know, this isn't actually about you.
 
um, bare with me on this theory, but here it goes nonetheless...

every action has a reaction, right? so everything in this world is in some way linked to the other. you may not of had any influence on the way that 'these cards' were dealt to you, but you can and you do influence how they will continue to be dealt to others in the future.

people leave legacies behind them, future generations will have to pick up the pieces of what their ancestors before them did. therefore everything is connected and the current generation of people are in fact the result of the people that came before them, thus their past history is also our past history, for it has been inherited onto us, like it or not. and therefore we should, and we are in some obscure way, held responsible too for things that happened before us because we are responsible for what happens in the future, maybe?


i'm going to stop now.
 
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Fair enough keej. I'm just tired of talking about your personal foibles and I'd like to get back to talking about social change - if at all possible.
 
The whole 'sorry' debate is merely symbolic - as dreamtime has been saying, the least the aboriginal people deserve is an apology. I know that actions speak louder than words but simply acknowledging the fact that we did something wrong would lay a great foundation to start helping today's aborigines to lead themselves out of the rut that we essentially placed them in. It may just be a word, and a fairly innocuous word at that, but it's the recognition behind the word that is important.
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This is exactly right up all night. Great post. There has to be a starting point. At the moment we have none. :(



*edit* related to off topic post
 
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keej said:
Who's we? Australia?

I've never had a particularly strong sense of patriotism, and I don't feel the need to inherit the baggage of this counry simply because I was born here. I'm also part German, and in the same light I don't feel guilt for what the Nazis did because a distant relative happened to be born there.

If you read my posts you'll note that I'm not against the social responsibility / humanitarian aspect of it, and my statements haven't been against recognition of what happened to them. However, I don't believe in personally feeling accountable, responsible, or faulty for it though as some have charged I should feel.
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Yes, Australians; anyone who lives in this country and is not aboriginal. You can't compare being 1/50 german to this situation - you live in australia and the reason you are living in australia is, in part, due to the fact a culture was decimated to make way for us. If that hadn't happened, you wouldn't be here which is, as many people have said, the reason that we are really all involved in this. I'm sure there are a million other incidents which have caused you to be living here too - but this is a pretty big one.

Eh, this is such a stupid argument. Noone said we should accept personal responsiblity, but it's just such a copout to think that means we shouldn't accept any responsibility. beatlebot was right, this isn't about you and this isn't about who is 'more right'. The aborigines would like an apology, I believe they deserve one, does it really matter we weren't directly involved if we get to live the way we do thanks to those actions?

Anyway, that was a great waste of an afternoon. =D

dreamtime: good post.
 
fuck you all, posting before i got in

beatlebot: correct me if im wrong, but you don't really seem to have been 'talking' very much in this thread. it looks like a singular post about fascist whites, and the other two complaining about keej?
 
The point is as well is that it didn't just happen 200 years ago, these things have been happening to them FOR the last 200 years.

Preacha- You seem to have little to no understanding of the broader issue, you're arguments are blatantly racist, hateful and pathetically simplistic.

shouzenpuff and keej- As above. Just thought I’d ask, who do you suppose wins at demonstrating who's more fucking stupid, the person who uses a quote from "Buffy the vampire slayer" in hopes of strengthening their argument or the person who backs them up for doing so, claiming it as the "best post evAR!" ??

I find it disgusting that none of you even seem willing to even consider their argument...
 
Sorry, but this ‘protest’ is an absolute disgrace.

Had this group stuck to their deal then their message would have been made loud and clear, and it would have been respected. As it stands whatever good that might have come from the action has been washed away as the stereotype once again lives up to is pathetic nature.

For what its worth here’s a bit of background on the Black GST spokesman Robbie Thorpe...

- In 1991 he helped the Melbourne Rainforest Action Group to resist imports of tropical timber, saying then that he was an elder of the Barbuwooloong clan of central Gippsland.

- In 2000, the Communist Party's newsletter reported he was helping protesters at the Goolengook anti-logging camp, this time as an elder of the Krauatungalung clan, from around the Snowy.

- 3 years ago he was "saving" the Strzelecki forest, giving a speech alongside Greens leader Bob Brown as an elder of all western Victoria's "Gurnai Nation" clans.

Which clan is it??


"The white man," rasped Thorpe, part-white himself, "he's a liar, he's a thief."

"So evil was he that he'd "exterminated 99 per cent of the (black) population here".

"Weapons of mass destruction were used on innocent people in a pre-emptive strike, namely smallpox . . . (using) a cargo of disease".

"And this "pariah state" was still committing a "premeditated criminal genocide of the indigenous people ongoing for 237 years".
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Um, as far as I'm aware Smallpox was never used as a "weapon" again Aboriginals. I think he's getting confused with American Indians??


Sorry, but this lot of protestors are nothing more than a bunch of dickheads hiding behind an extremely valid cause, and that's what’s pissing me off. FFS you've got respected and recognised leaders and traditional owners of the land calling it a farce and a disgrace!

As I said at the start, they could have done a lot of good had they stuck to their original plan, but they ruined it but this continued farce. (And for what its worth, I was actually involved in a Black GST fundraiser before the Games...)

EDIT...one other thing, if you're going to have a story or a "belief" how about sticking to it. In one breathe they say they're on their land, and don't recognise our laws...the next one they're going to the Court they don't believe in or recognise to get a judgement (which surely then they wouldn't recognise) in their favour. Then yesterday they try and use "our" laws to prosecute protesters who venture onto their land...FFS make your mind up!
 
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MoeBro said:
fuck you all, posting before i got in

beatlebot: correct me if im wrong, but you don't really seem to have been 'talking' very much in this thread. it looks like a singular post about fascist whites, and the other two complaining about keej?
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1. I said that taking down the gunyah was a fascist thing to do. I am not aware of the skin colour of the people who did it.

2. I read alot of threads that I don't actually participate in, especially political threads in Aus Social. Generally I find that somebody else pinpoints my sentiments before I can and I don't generally post just to repeat what someone else has already said, unless I think the situation calls for it. I posted this time because I felt the thread was getting off-topic and after that I felt that keej was hijacking the thread a little bit.

I'd prefer to talk about this one incident, here in the present, so I'm trying to direct the discussion back that way.

Well, I can try :)
 
Zero the hero said:
Preacha- You seem to have little to no understanding of the broader issue, you're arguments are blatantly racist, hateful and pathetically simplistic.
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i just thought people were having Keystroke withdrawl, so i had to step up to the plate :D
 
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