green tea (well, L-theanine): the dopamine connection

[mitogen]

Effect of theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, on brain monoamines and striatal dopamine release in conscious rats.

"Theanine administration caused significant increases in serotonin and/or DA concentrations in the brain, especially in striatum, hypothalamus and hippocampus. Direct administration of theanine into brain striatum by microinjection caused a significant increase of DA release in a dose-dependent manner."

what do you people make of this?

I'm really fond of green tea's mood enhancing effects. its subtle but really quite relaxing.

any care to bounce some ideas as to how this DA release could be related to the subjective effects?

some discriminative stimulus papers would be nice, actually, but i haven't really got much time for research right now - i know i'd get bogged down and stuck at my computer for hours if i started right now

 

[VelocideX]

Do you have a reference for that quote?

 

[GFunk02]

I have some supplement of L-theanine from douglas labs. I remember it made me tense, and I thought, what the hell? Its supposed to increase GABA?

It makes sense now, cause dopamine can cause anxiousness (probably cause of its link to norepinephrine)

 

[Irate_Scotsman]

This is VERY interesting.... once before smoking DMT I drank a cup of green tea - which intensified the DMT, increased my meditative focus in the DMT state, intensified the visual phenomena, and somewhat circumvented the 'internal censor.' Further experiments with things like coffee and pharmaceutical caffeine failed to replicate this effect, the only real effect being increased anxiety... which the green tea seemed to _decrease_!

Another thing to keep in mind about green tea is that it contains acetylcholinesterase inhibitors which seem to keep their pharmacological activity for about a week.... suggesting that green tea is an all-round power-pack herbal nootropic...

 

[BilZ0r]

Yeah, that came from here.

As always, theres the question of whether the dose is significant...

It's dodgy as hell, they give oral dose of theanine, and figure out the brain concentration in moles per gram of tissue... then they microinject the theanine which of course can only be done in moles per letre... so we've no idea if they these doses are equivalanet.

It's even worse because they when they give theanine orally, and measure dopamine release, they don't actaully tell you what dose they use, its either 1000, 2000 or 4000mg/kg... which only gives a dopamine level of 200%. While the lowest concentration they microinject produces a 450% percent of base line. I'd geuss they use the highest dose... so that 4g/kg... which means a FUCKING massive dose in humans... So I don't think this article has much to do with humans at all...

... and even ignoring that, the fact that the release is only found seems to indicate that its not going to explain any purported psychoactive effects.

Interestingly I always find green tea puts me in a really shitty mood, which is a bitch, because it's so fucking good for you.

 

[mitogen]

i love green tea

Puts you in a shitty mood BilZ0r??
It always puts me in a really relaxed mood. I can notice the difference about 5-10 minutes after the first cup. Definitely superplacebo.
So what you were saying about the experimental method was that while they DID show some effects, their efforts to quantify them have largely been in vain?

 

[BilZ0r]

Just that in my opinion, one should always get doses figured out... if you give something orally, then then switch to microinjection... and you're microinjection is supposed to have something to do with your oral dose, then you need to make sure the two doses are close together...

That "direct aplication of MDMA neurotoxicity" paper I comented on, that's what I'm talking about. They gave a known neurotoxic IP injection, then they measure brain dialysate MDMA concentrations, then they microinjected MDMA, AND made sure it reached that concetration. That shit is tight.

They were the first people out there to comment on the brain concentrations reached after a neurotoxic MDMA dose. I mean, thats just rediculous.

 

[atti]

i drank a few pots a while back before a pill.
dunno if it was the tea, ( i thought it was at the time), but my pill was heaps fucking strong. First time i ever threw up from pills, off one.

throwing up green tea is actually fun.

 

[smartshop]

l-theanine makes me very drowsy. I also get shitty mood when drinking grean tea, but i get it with any significant amount of caffeine lately (used to be able to drink lots of coffee), adding some l-theanine makes it bearable, but so fuzzy that nothing productive comes out of me, wich is what most poeple drink coffee and tea for. Too bad.
If your in to the weight loss thing theanine might be usefull. Here : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15011752
they show theanine does not decrease the weight loss effect of caffeine and catechins. So it might be a good addition to an caffeine/ ephedrine stack to reduce jitteryness. Just a thought

 

[johnjoshuavillamor]

Well, I like drinking green tea. There are so many benefits that can give you by drinking a cup of green tea every day. They can fight some viruses, prevent some certain cancer and get stronger the immune system.

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[Gormur]

l-theanine makes me very drowsy. I also get shitty mood when drinking grean tea, but i get it with any significant amount of caffeine lately (used to be able to drink lots of coffee), adding some l-theanine makes it bearable, but so fuzzy that nothing productive comes out of me, wich is what most poeple drink coffee and tea for. Too bad.

Exactly the same for me. Maybe because i used to drink a lot of coffee and tea growing up (from age 11 to about 17). Since then (i'm 26 now), i can't touch either one. Even the amounts in decaf versions make me really anxious, restless, and my heart does weird things.. muscles tighten, stomach tightens, and my extremities get very cold and sweaty as well

strangely, i can handle heavy stims like meth and mdma which have the opposite effect on me (sense of well-being, calmness, good concentration, etc)

maybe this has something to do with metabolism and thyroid. after some recent testing (which isn't completed yet) i was told i may have hyperthyroidism
.. so i'm waiting to see what the results will be

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

It's already widely known that theanine increases dopamine through the GABA receptors which are the main targets of alcohol/barbiturates/benzodiazepines/glutethidamide/methaqualone. So yes their is pharmalogical confirmation of theanine's anti-anxiety effects.

 

[jamesmartin]

Does theanine increase or decrease serotonin?

Anyone know ?
I've been trying to find a straight answer . Every source says something different .

 

[Phener]

there is definately a need to differentiate (theanine +/- caffeine) from green/black/white tea - all kinds of other chemicals in there.

E.g ECGC purported to be a dopamine decarboxylase inhibitor, one of MANY active polyphenols

The green tea gallocatechins, (-)-epigallocatechin-3-O-gallate (EGCG), and (-)-epigallocatechin (EGC) were found to be inhibitors of Dopa decarboxylase (DDC). EGCG and EGC inactivate the enzyme in both a time- and concentration-dependent manner and exhibit saturation of the rate of inactivation at high concentrations, with efficiency of inactivation values (k(inact)/K(i)) of 868 and 1511 M(-1) min(-1), respectively. In contrast, gallic acid behaves as a weak inhibitor of DDC. Protection against inactivation by EGCG and EGC was observed in the presence of the active site-directed inhibitor D-Dopa. Either EGCG or EGC induce changes in the absorbance and CD bands of the visible spectrum of enzyme-bound PLP. Taken together, these findings indicate the active site nature of the interaction of DDC with both polyphenols. On the basis of the properties of the EGCG-inactivated enzyme, it can be suggested that inactivation could be ascribed to a covalent modification of not yet identified residue(s) of the active site of DDC.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11374875

they might not pass the BBB:

Following acute ingestion of green tea by six human subjects, HPLC-MS2 analysis revealed that flavan-3-ol methyl, glucuronide and sulfate metabolites appeared in the bloodstream but did not pass through the blood-cerebrospinal fluid barrier. These observations emphasize the discrepancies between in vitro and in vivo evidence on the neuroprotective role of these compounds. If, as has been proposed, green tea exerts neuroprotective effects, this finding indicates that the active components are not flavan-3-ols or their metabolites. Alternatively, a systemic action may be hypothesised whereby dietary flavan-3-ols up-regulate antioxidant defences and/or reduce inflammation, the benefit of which may be effective throughout the body.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16910171

but neither does carbidopa yet it still has an effect when co-ingested with 5-htp, l-dopa. (both could be obtained from L-phenylalanine and L-tryptophan from food)

The science of TEA is amazingly complex yet interesting.

 

[Phener]

Does theanine increase or decrease serotonin?

Anyone know ?
I've been trying to find a straight answer . Every source says something different .

I think INCREASING or DECREASING dopamine / serotonin is a vast oversimplification. It most likely increases/decreases in specific areas of the brain - also at dose dependant.

In fact in general the whole dopamine / serotonin theories floating about are usually an oversimplication. It's all about location, location, location!

 

[Gormur]

Recently i'd been taking 200mg l-theanine daily for 2 weeks, but it started giving me dysthymia, which gradually lessened over the next couple days of non-use...

It sucks because it helps me tremendously but only if i use it sparingly - maybe 2-3 days a week max, as it seems to have a cumulative effect with daily use that leads to unpleasant side-effects... migraines, anhedonia, depression, lack of appetite...

In that sense, it's like benzos for me.. And when i've combined l-theanine with clonazepam it has usually had an additive effect, but last time i combined the two i felt a distinct aura like i was about to have a seizure (I've never actually had a seizure, but a dozen or so auras over the years that honestly scare the living shit out of me

Overall i've found L-glutamine to work better / more consistently on my social phobia and to have few to zero side-effects. Totally increases the quality of my sleep and dream-recall as well...

I just wonder about combining L-glutamine / L-theanine and benzos since i fucking hate benzo-dependence and would rather have a few substances i can alternate between to deal with this as it is crippling without anything -- aside from the high quality vitamin and mineral supplements i've been on daily for over 10 years....

Tea/Coffee/Caffeinated drinks have always given me horrible anxiety+depression as well...