Enlitx
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2004
- Messages
- 735
So, are you saying that there is merit to the idea that natural drugs are better?
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P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat
Good arguments for sticking only to natural drugs?
- Thread starter MyDoorsAreOpen
- Start date
So, are you saying that there is merit to the idea that natural drugs are better?
azzazza !?
Bluelighter
^i said it depends on which value parameter you handle. you'll have trouble finding a strictly rational one, and Humes guillotine excludes moral value. but you can for instance, build further upon the idea of intricacy: a plant is more then an isolated active chemical. when you look at the interdependant system that nature is, and we are part of, not even two plants have the same chemical composition. though you make a leap of faith here (but where don't you) you can extrapolate that given this systemic whole and interrelatedness of nature, the natural plant composition may better suit a natural organism.
then there are a myriad of emotional and associative values that can be given, irrational maybe, but phenomenologically speaking, they do work, albeit in a way of modal fictionalism perhaps.
personally, i am no proponent of 'natural drugs are better'. but, i do think they are different, and experienced different, though, and a distinction has merits. Perhaps this is only by way of the associative networks in the mind, given to us in a history much older then an individual subject, and not immediately accessible reasonably. these things, like it or not, do work in our backs. though i leave open a possibility of a 'more' (but well, i always do, im never gonna pretend my knowledge on anything is complete and closed-off).
to use a Heideggerian existential: these things are largely not present-at-hand. denying this is an abject reductionism that simply ignores a blatantly obvious given that does not lend itself to such an incredibly lossy reduction; and is simply put, an illusion of purely rational autonomy by a subject that posits itself as outside of the world it lives in.
then there are a myriad of emotional and associative values that can be given, irrational maybe, but phenomenologically speaking, they do work, albeit in a way of modal fictionalism perhaps.
personally, i am no proponent of 'natural drugs are better'. but, i do think they are different, and experienced different, though, and a distinction has merits. Perhaps this is only by way of the associative networks in the mind, given to us in a history much older then an individual subject, and not immediately accessible reasonably. these things, like it or not, do work in our backs. though i leave open a possibility of a 'more' (but well, i always do, im never gonna pretend my knowledge on anything is complete and closed-off).
to use a Heideggerian existential: these things are largely not present-at-hand. denying this is an abject reductionism that simply ignores a blatantly obvious given that does not lend itself to such an incredibly lossy reduction; and is simply put, an illusion of purely rational autonomy by a subject that posits itself as outside of the world it lives in.
Enlitx
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2004
- Messages
- 735
I kind of thought that is what you were getting at, just wanted to be sure. I think the difference with drugs is that intricacy really isn't an issue since it all comes down to a handful of psychoactive components. The most complexity you are going to see is a mixture of chemicals such as in cannabis, but even then there isn't a distinction between a bunch of fully synthesized chemicals in a bottle and a plant with the same chemicals produced naturally.
A molecule is a molecule is a molecule, whether it was synthesized in the cytoplasm of a fava bean cell or the beaker of a second year chem major.
I try not to be mean to hippies, but if I hear one more of them say "its just a plant man, how can something as natural as a plant be controlled", I will set a pot with nightshade directly next to them while they are sleeping and test their conviction.
Disclaimer: I am not saying that marijuana should be criminalized, I am saying that it is not valid to suggest it should be legal because it is natural.
A molecule is a molecule is a molecule, whether it was synthesized in the cytoplasm of a fava bean cell or the beaker of a second year chem major.
I try not to be mean to hippies, but if I hear one more of them say "its just a plant man, how can something as natural as a plant be controlled", I will set a pot with nightshade directly next to them while they are sleeping and test their conviction.
Disclaimer: I am not saying that marijuana should be criminalized, I am saying that it is not valid to suggest it should be legal because it is natural.
justsayknow
Bluelighter
Ok I didnt see this reason being mentioned so far and I will change the wording from natural drugs to plant drugs due to all the reasons mentioned previously about the difficulty of drawing a line between the natural and the unnatural.
I am not a strict plant drug user at all but if I were for me the benefit is in the growing. Firstly the growing of these plants in my garden gives me pleasure in and of itself. Secondly due to me only growing plants outside the plants I grow only produce a given amount of drug at certain seasons of the year. This limits my use and also gives me a certain connection to those particular times of the year.
I apologise that neither of these reasons are particularly rational but not very much that I do is based on cold reason alone.
Obviously I could try and use artificial conditions to ramp up production but I have no desire to do this. Also for certain things you have an abundance at certain times which you can either use with friends or store for the future or compost.
As someone mentioned before home production of synthetics would also have many benefits but I dont have the knowledge or skills to do this
I am not a strict plant drug user at all but if I were for me the benefit is in the growing. Firstly the growing of these plants in my garden gives me pleasure in and of itself. Secondly due to me only growing plants outside the plants I grow only produce a given amount of drug at certain seasons of the year. This limits my use and also gives me a certain connection to those particular times of the year.
I apologise that neither of these reasons are particularly rational but not very much that I do is based on cold reason alone.
Obviously I could try and use artificial conditions to ramp up production but I have no desire to do this. Also for certain things you have an abundance at certain times which you can either use with friends or store for the future or compost.
As someone mentioned before home production of synthetics would also have many benefits but I dont have the knowledge or skills to do this
qwe
Bluelight Crew
>>im sorry, but nature makes technology seem like a blunt instrument>>
our civilization is in its technological baby steps
trust me, tech will match bio once we understand the nuances of things like molecules and molecular machines and such
our civilization is in its technological baby steps
trust me, tech will match bio once we understand the nuances of things like molecules and molecular machines and such
azzazza !?
Bluelighter
^ assumed we manage not to kill ourselves with it first 
edit: though its still hard to see us creating such a vast and interdependent system like an ecosystem artificially, successfully controlling (and keeping them controlled) all the variables therein without it fudging itself up eventually. i'd assume it exceedingly hard to recreate such a delicate balance, and most certainly on that scale.
i don't think we'll ever be able to assume a complete control of nature without that ending up venging itself on us. i'd assume it will always be a sort of 'going along' with and besides her. strangely that be human dignity in bioethics.
edit: though its still hard to see us creating such a vast and interdependent system like an ecosystem artificially, successfully controlling (and keeping them controlled) all the variables therein without it fudging itself up eventually. i'd assume it exceedingly hard to recreate such a delicate balance, and most certainly on that scale.
i don't think we'll ever be able to assume a complete control of nature without that ending up venging itself on us. i'd assume it will always be a sort of 'going along' with and besides her. strangely that be human dignity in bioethics.
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Although im not a very 'spiritual' person(damn i hate that word), i do firmly believe that natural drugs, especially ones that have been found or grown by the user(magic mushrooms, marijuana, coca, poppys) are 'better for the soul'. I always feel better and have a better trip knowing where my drugs came from, what they are, and what they will do. The idea of eating a pill to get high or trip.. doesnt appeal to me in the slightest.
Now, thats the fruity, irrational explanation.
That rational explanation:
1: Safer. Although chemicals(cocaine, mdma, lsd, heroin, etc) are 'safe' if your source is 100% legit, and you KNOW for a FACT that what your getting is infact what your buying. However, for 99% of drug users, this isnt the case. They buy drugs off people they barely know, of whom the dealers have bought their drugs off people they barely know and so on. A natural drug generally comes in a natural form, like nuggets of weed, and thus you know what it is.
2: Peace of mind with certainty of drug. We all know that pondering on whether a pill you ate that did nothing is going to give you liver failure in a month isnt any fun. Neither is having your trip turn bad because what youve eaten definitly isnt LSD and is lasting 18hrs.
3: Price, availablity: Because natural drugs are just that, natural, they can be grown by a user, or else they are grown by people, usually locally. So supply is abundant, and cheap. There isnt any processing or expensive equipment involved, so its easy too, and usually natural drugs have a lower schedule/class, so its not so hush hush and hard to get.
4: Economically sound for your country: Importing heroin from afghanistan doesnt help your economy, buying some opium from an old lady who grows it in her backyard is. Also, alot of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine keep poor people poor, and cause these people to be exposed to terrible chemicals and live relatively shit lives.
5: Less addictive due to lack of purity. Coca leaves dont cause people to sell there family to slave lords, cocaine does.
6: Good for the environment: The processing involved in creating man made chemicals, usually involves the creation of bad toxins, and because this is done illegally, they cannot be disposed legally. So they are dumped in parks or gutters, leaching into streams and killing wild life. Natural drugs create oxygen, help bees do there thang, and generally 'make the world go round'.
Now, thats the fruity, irrational explanation.
That rational explanation:
1: Safer. Although chemicals(cocaine, mdma, lsd, heroin, etc) are 'safe' if your source is 100% legit, and you KNOW for a FACT that what your getting is infact what your buying. However, for 99% of drug users, this isnt the case. They buy drugs off people they barely know, of whom the dealers have bought their drugs off people they barely know and so on. A natural drug generally comes in a natural form, like nuggets of weed, and thus you know what it is.
2: Peace of mind with certainty of drug. We all know that pondering on whether a pill you ate that did nothing is going to give you liver failure in a month isnt any fun. Neither is having your trip turn bad because what youve eaten definitly isnt LSD and is lasting 18hrs.
3: Price, availablity: Because natural drugs are just that, natural, they can be grown by a user, or else they are grown by people, usually locally. So supply is abundant, and cheap. There isnt any processing or expensive equipment involved, so its easy too, and usually natural drugs have a lower schedule/class, so its not so hush hush and hard to get.
4: Economically sound for your country: Importing heroin from afghanistan doesnt help your economy, buying some opium from an old lady who grows it in her backyard is. Also, alot of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine keep poor people poor, and cause these people to be exposed to terrible chemicals and live relatively shit lives.
5: Less addictive due to lack of purity. Coca leaves dont cause people to sell there family to slave lords, cocaine does.
6: Good for the environment: The processing involved in creating man made chemicals, usually involves the creation of bad toxins, and because this is done illegally, they cannot be disposed legally. So they are dumped in parks or gutters, leaching into streams and killing wild life. Natural drugs create oxygen, help bees do there thang, and generally 'make the world go round'.
Propyl Power
Bluelighter
I would like to repost, totally without permission, a post by 'folias' made at the australianethnobotany.com forum.
I think it neatly articulates my own intuition, more or less, and allows room for the special integrities of both synthetic and plant psychedelics.
(if I had to pick between the two, it would be plants without hesitation)
I think it neatly articulates my own intuition, more or less, and allows room for the special integrities of both synthetic and plant psychedelics.
(if I had to pick between the two, it would be plants without hesitation)
naginnudej
Bluelighter
Awesome post, thanks!
I admire your post in the 2C-P B&DT on this topic as well; I think you related a story about seeing cheesy visuals because people were watching anime during their experiences. Very interesting
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Anti-prune bump