Going Crazy on Purpose? - induced mania

[leiphos]

I am bipolar and have been on the mood-stabilizer Lamictal for a while. but recently things started getting rough, and I began cycling b/w depression and hypomania, maybe caused by some adderall all-nighters and also major life-changes like moving and complete reversals of future plans.

anyway, the doctor increased my Lamictal and added lithium, as well as Klonopin for anxiety. but I still feel either just blahhh - i.e. zombified or overly neutral (I am an artist, and this does not suit my productivity), or depressed, or briefly hypomanic, usually only late at night or at other inconvenient times

so at some point - not sure when, the days are a wash now - I decided that all those states sucked, except hypomania though it was so fleeting, and therefore I had to choose. so 3 or 4 days ago I went off all the meds, quit my job (spur of the moment decisions help give me that manic "high"/rush) and I just started my own regiment of 300mg Wellbutrin daily and might increase the dose. I know Wellbutrin can trigger manic episodes in ppl with bipolar, especially since it happened to me a couple years ago. I am scared about the future, and already my thoughts are racing and I can't sit still or concentrate properly. I feel like I am on a massive dose of amps, but totally sober. yes, I am worried about doing more regretable things in the near future - like opening multiple credit cards, or starting a 2nd relationship, or failing out of school, or etc etc etc.

at the same time, what terrifies me most of all is depression, the hopelessness, the inactivity, when the only escape is sleep or self-harm or drugs. I don't even feel like taking anything ever again right now, I'm already so buzzed by my body's natural chems. but depression is insufferable.

I'm wondering if anyone has similar experiences, any advice or words of wisdom or help. sorry if this is rambling, I can't even hold my hands still, they are trembling

 

[Lolie]

Most people with bipolar disorder miss their mania somewhat once their moods are stablised.

You already know that taking an antidepressant alone is dangerous. There's a good chance that you'll induce a mixed state and not just mania.

The question isn't whether you're going to crash, it's when and how badly. And how much damage you're going to do to yourself and your life in the meantime.

You know that you need to get back on a mood stabiliser - preventing and controlling mania is the key to preventing and controlling depression in people with bipolar disorder.

Get in touch with your doctor and tell him what you've done and why. They're used to people going off their meds. It sounds like your dosages might have needed adjusting anyway - get that done NOW.

You know where this ride leads. Right now you're grounded enough to realise the risk you've taken. As your mania increases you'll lose that awareness and get caught up in delusions of your own specialness.

Trust me, the high is NOT worth the low which is gonna follow. You need to see a mental health professional and you need to do it NOW. If you don't do it voluntarily, sooner or later you're likely to do something which will land you in a psych ward.

If you're not willing to go back on mood stabilisers, for fuck's sake knock off taking the Wellbutrin - it's like pouring petrol on a raging fire. And knock off the Adderall, too.

The speed with which your hypomania has reached the "not grounded in reality anymore" stage is really worrying. For what it's worth, we might produce more when we're manic but what we produce looks pretty fucking mediocre when we look at it once we're stable again.

I hope there's someone in your real life who can call your doctor if you don't do so, because it's really rare for escalating mania to end well on its own and it sounds like yours is escalating fast.

 

[blahman8000]

It's a really bad idea to stop taking Lamictal suddenly, because it's also an anti-convulsant and you can have seizures.

I was on Lamictal and Adderall for about a year, and I was in the habit of binging on Adderall. The longer I was doing that, the more unstable I became. I also threw in some alcohol, which really doesn't go well with Lamictal at all. Things got really bad and I began behaving like I was absolutely insane. I'd really advise to just take your meds as directed and do NOT abuse the Adderall while you're on it. I was diagnosed with cyclothymia before being put on Lamictal and I never really agreed that I had it. Now I'm beginning to think the diagnosis was accurate. I'm thinking of going back on it and asking for a different med than Adderall so that I won't be tempted to abuse it and be caught back in that cycle.

Seriously, I really know what you're going through and you do not want this to get worse. Get back to your regular meds, take them as directed, DON'T take anti-depressants, and get your life under control before you REALLY go crazy.

 

[n3ophy7e]

leiphos I really think you should go back to your doctor and explain to them what you've done and why you did it, so that you can work out a medically-supervised alternative to the combination of drugs you were on before the wellbutrin. As blahman mentioned, lamictal has anti-convulsant properties so stopping it suddenly can be dangerous. Hopefully you're not having any withdrawals from the klonopin either. Lithium is an important med for a lot of bipolar sufferers so it's probably not wise to cut this out so abruptly either.

If you go back to your doctor and explain that the combination they put you on wasn't working out for you, hopefully they will try a different combination so you can find one that does work well for you. Sometimes it takes a few goes before you find the right meds that make you feel "normal" without any nasty side effects like the zombification that you described.

Good luck, and let us know how you're going

Oh and also, you really shouldn't be abusing adderall if you're bipolar because it will probably just make your condition worse in the long run, but I'm sure you know that

 

[lowlow345]

I was on Lamictal too along with a bunch of other shit, a couple years ago. i knew something was wrong with me so i saw a psychiatrist and he told me i was bipolar and obsessive compulsive (because of my obsessive thoughts). I also quit taking them cold turkey one day and I really dont know why. I just didnt want to take them anymore, I didnt like the way I felt and I wasnt ever eating anything. I felt like a zombie. But since ive been off the meds I have turned to drugs and alcohol to escape from myself. Recently I got put on Lexapro for the second time, and I really dont notice a difference in me at all.

but I know what your going through, i walked out on my job recently too , i thought it was because of a panic attack but after reading your post i think it was prob. for the same reasons as you.

 

[das_feuer]

Leiphos: but I still feel either just blahhh - i.e. zombified or overly neutral (I am an artist, and this does not suit my productivity),

You know, you can be just as creative as you ever were without mania. You can be just as creative as you ever were while staying on your medications. I am a writer, a bit of an artist, and I have absolutely no issues being creative while on my medications. You are using that as quick copout, I think. I'm not surprised, though, because what you are thinking is common among most people who have the disorder. It's dangerous and illogical, though.

Leiphos: so 3 or 4 days ago I went off all the meds, quit my job (spur of the moment decisions help give me that manic "high"/rush) and I just started my own regiment of 300mg Wellbutrin daily and might increase the dose. I know Wellbutrin can trigger manic episodes in ppl with bipolar, especially since it happened to me a couple years ago.

I doubt that you have the proper medical training to be able to know how to properly prescribe such medications to people, let alone yourself (Doctors can't even do that). Go back on your medications immediately, phone your psychiatrist and therapist, and tell them what you have done. You say that you worry about your future, but it doesn't seem that way; you don't seem to be making wise decisions right now. Perhaps you need to go to a short-term mental hospital to be observed for a while?

Lamictol is one of the only bipolar medications that you must take daily for it to work effectively. Even going one or two days without it can be disastrous. You could also suffer serious health consequences from suddenly discontinuing Lamictol.

Please do the right thing and phone your psychiatrist/therapist tomorrow morning. Explain your situation and concerns. Go in for the next available appointment that they have.

Stay on your meds! You realize that you could die if you stop taking your meds, right? If you go manic, you will become delusional. Who knows what you will do? What if you do something ridiculously stupid and risky and get killed because of it? WTF are you thinking taking a medication that you know has triggered mania in you in the past? Do you want to lose all of your money, completely ruin every meaningful relationship that you have now, get arrested?

Mania always, always ends in disaster. Mania is not a good thing. It never is. If you are having issues with the way that you feel on your meds, what you need to do is tell your psychiatrist so that your meds can be adjusted safely, or you can be tried on different medications. The goal is to keep you well without having you suffer from side effects that you cannot handle.

Why did you quit your job? What good could that possible do? It sounds like you need a lot of help right now. If you still have your medications you should really start taking them again immediately. Stop taking the Wellbutrin. Take what you are prescribed. If you go even just a week without your medications you could suffer disastrous consequences.

 

[paranoid android]

Im diagnosed bipolar NOS with psychotic symptoms. I take lamotrigine, bupropion, seroquel (the last few days ive just been taking zyprexa zydis) and clonazepam as well for the anxiety. Plus clonazepam especially when combined with a anti-psychotic does help mania.

I can't say i miss hypomania or mania and i don't try to induce this. I have accidently induced mania by forgetting to take my meds or whatever. I never do this for long because i really hate being manic. It does not make you more creative or anything it just makes you act more loopy and irrational 8)

Please stop taking the wellbutrin as it is not prescribed to you. Also please go back on your medications as you are not supposed to stop taking these medications suddenly. Going off lamitrigine or lithium and never mind both too fast can cause mania and mixed states and depression as well. Quitting klonopin all at once can result in benzodiazepine withdrawal and believe me you do not want that!

So please contact your psychiatrist and tell them what has been going on. Then they can deicide from there what the best thing to do is.

 

[Bojangles69]

Das Feur that is bullshit about being able to be creative/productive while on certain meds. Its as if you didn't even listen to him. He TOLD US he can't be creative when on these meds, so how can you come in here and say "you can be creative on the medications" when he clearly outlined that he can NOT. The arguement isn't that he can't be creative at all (I don't think any drug can take away ALL of your creative ability), is that he can't be creative enough to do what he wants. And it seems rather ignorant to tell him he can when you don't know a single thing about him and hes already stated otherwise.

THAT is "illogical". Just becase YOU can be creative, does NOT mean that he can too. Even a tiny dose of opiates will severly ruin my creative abilities making music, out of all the shit he's on it doesn't suprise me one bit that thats a problem for him.
Again this is highly relative and you are generalizing through a self referential experience of your own, not his.

As far as getting off the meds yes that can be dangerous, and I agree with you on that. But there also lies the possibility that the OP knows more about his body than WE DO, and noone can tell him for a fact that he's going to get "killed" or harm himself during a manic episode. I'm sure he has a few years earlier in his disorder where he was NOT on meds, and maybe looking back hes envious of how much healthier/stable he felt then. The fact is you just don't know.
I'm not bipolar but I have a wealth of my own 'disorders' and I've consistently wound up in even worse situations just by taking a doctors advice. Some of my own most "stable" times in life have been when I was self medicating. Last time I took a drs orders guess where I wound up? A psychward. They told me to keep taking a med that was making me suicidal, wtf kind of idiot fuckng doctor would recommend that? The truth is a lot of them.

I still think you should talk to your doctor leiphos. You should have came off the meds slowly and tapered at least, I'm suprised you're not in a world of pain from the klonopin alone.
What I recommend here as practical advice is to pay close attention to your mental health over these next few days. If you start feeling worse, acting up, are throwin into a manic episode, then it'd prob be a good idea to get back on the meds asap. If you don't feel unstable, and think you are getting better, then maybe go with it. But I'm not going to sit here and play god and tell you what you need to do. I don't like the fact that you stopped your meds NOT because I'm afraid you'll lose it being off them, but I'm more concerned about the acute rebounds you may experience stopping that quickly.

All and all give it a little bit of time, and if you start feeling worse see your doc immediately. You prob should see him either way but I think you most likely already considered that fact, so it seems rather pointless to keep pushing it at this point.
G/luck!

 

[SKL]

Bipolar individual checking in here, on a cocktail of meds including dexedrine, lamictal, klonopin, which forms as sort of a triangle (dexedrine pointing up, klonipin pointing down, lamictal forming a stable base). But as far as psychopharm goes it is an individual matter. What works for you will not necessarily work for me, and vice versa.

But down to brass tacks. This business of inducing hypo/mania. I can greatly sympathize. If I could be lightly hypomanic all the time ... sign me up. Because, by definition, hypomania falls below the threshhold of seriously causing problems, and is usually pleasuarble and better productive than baseline. Why, then is it considered a problem psychiatrically, instead of somethign laudable? Because it is inherently unsustainable. Even if you feel okay for a while, with every day that passes without medication you are increasing your risk to go into one state or the other. And I can guarantee you that you will not be able to make an informed decision to stop because by the time you would need to you are already in an altered state of mind in which your insight into your staete of mind is impaired. You are invariably setting yourself up for florid mania (which terrifies the shit out of me beyond anything personally) or terrible depression, if you start trying to play with your meds and tame the beast and think that you can control it. You can't, that's why it is an illness which requires treatment.

Trying to regulate your own psychopharmacology to optimum performance by putting yourself off your baseline is like trying to conduct a symphony with your hands being pulled in random directions. What will come out will ultimately be cacophony.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Bupropion is not a drug regularly scripted to people with bipolar disorder. It only really helps mild to moderate cases of unipolar (major) depression, which is fundamentally a very different disease. People often find out definitively they're bipolar by trying meds that are made for unipolar depression, only getting worse, and then being told they were misdiagnosed.

Bipolar disorder is actually closer related to schizophrenia and seizure disorders in terms of the mechanisms gone awry, and responds to a lot of the same meds. You wouldn't suddenly stop taking an antipsychotic and a mood stabilizer if doing so gave you a good chance of the government putting homicidal thoughts in your head, or you losing consciousness without warning and crashing your car. So don't do it for bipolar either.

That all said, I've gone crazy on purpose before. But I can't in good conscience recommend it to anyone else.

 

[SKL]

Oh, and BTW, I used to take Buproprion, back when I thought I had "simple" unipolar depression. Made me manic as shit. Susequently I made a bunch of bad decisions, as it tends to happen.

 

[Lolie]

Forgot to ask when your Lithium serum levels were last checked. I've seen people start decompensating even when their levels seem fine on their current dose - it's possible that yours have been inadequate for a while and that's what's precipitated the hypomania.

Just a reference point for those who aren't aware of it, the lifetime risk of completed suicide for people with bipolar disorder is 15% (it's about 10% for those with schizophrenia) and mixed states are the most dangerous in terms of both intentional and unintended self-harm. That's why no-one is suggesting that the OP "wait and see what happens".

 

[S.M.F.G]

I really wish i could be of more help on this topic, My cousin has majour problems, She's bipolar every time shes off the meds shes off doin all sorts of silly things.

Please please take the advice of the more knowlegeable and the mods and get to your doctor and stay on ur meds as iv'e seen first hand what messes bipolar people can get into when off medications, i know what i write is of little help, But i had to re enforce what the wiser ones are saying
being here is good, im prayin that things work out 4 u

 

[leiphos]

ok so I went back on all the meds at once, and stopped wellbutrin today. I feel somehow better, tho I know it cant be that immediate. I slept for hours and feel like sleeping indefinitely - mania is the escape within conciousness, sleep is the escape within depression... Ime.

the urge to abuse my medicines now is high; if I am on them I want to get the bang for my buck. I want to feel these abnormal, euphoric sensations - if it's not the mania high...well I find myself now taking clonazepam, temazepam and phenazepam in excess. I also have adderall, but if I'm not going in that direction, I don't want the least bit of it. at least I'm not delusional I guess. I haven't opened a new credit card yet, but I still don't have my job.

thanks for all the words of wisdom fellas

edit: not to mention my pain meds: soma & flexeril

 

[Lolie]

ok so I went back on all the meds at once, and stopped wellbutrin today. I feel somehow better, tho I know it cant be that immediate. I slept for hours and feel like sleeping indefinitely - mania is the escape within conciousness, sleep is the escape within depression... Ime.

the urge to abuse my medicines now is high; if I am on them I want to get the bang for my buck. I want to feel these abnormal, euphoric sensations - if it's not the mania high...well I find myself now taking clonazepam, temazepam and phenazepam in excess. I also have adderall, but if I'm not going in that direction, I don't want the least bit of it. at least I'm not delusional I guess. I haven't opened a new credit card yet, but I still don't have my job.

thanks for all the words of wisdom fellas

edit: not to mention my pain meds: soma & flexeril

Lithium's one of the best anti-manic drugs there is but it has some of the worst side-effects (I won't event try it unless everything else fails). Make sure your doctor knows if you don't like the way you're feeling on it - they'd rather take you off it or change your dose than have you stop taking meds altogether.

And holy shit, you've got you're own little psychiatric drugs pharmacy going on there! Lose the phenazepam - it never ends well in excess.

Now you're a bit more grounded, is there any chance you could get your job back or did you burn your bridges in spectacular fashion?

Lithium and Lamactil both act quickly - you should feel at least a bit better pretty much straight away although it will take a little while for you to get back to ideal levels.

Ring your psych and tell them what happened. They may even adjust your meds over the phone if you've been seeing them for a while.

 

[prayersfor.rain]

I miss the way I feel when manic - I rule the fucking world. On one hand it'd be fun to be that way again, so productive, so much energy, good times.

On the other hand I really really regret all the times I walked around butt ass naked at strangers' parties. Yeah when I'm manic I'm not too fond of clothes...and I have no clue what's appropriate.
Or all the times I interrupt people and I'm totally rude but I don't even realize I'm being rude. Or that part where people think I'm a tweaker because I haven't slept in a week and haven't really eaten much either for that matter and I'm talking a mile a minute about aliens and unicorns and sparkly shit. Oh and last time I almost quit my job to chain smoke cigarettes and dance to electronica 24/7. Seemed like a BRILLIANT idea. Glad I didn't do it.

That shit's not cool with me.
And then you crash that comes after being high for a while.
The higher you go, the lower you'll go. And hell - what if you didn't just induce mania - what if you ended up with a mixed episode?! I was depressed, manic, anxious, agitated and paranoid all at the same time for like 3 months. That NOT fun. I'd be up all night peeking out my windows waiting for the sun to come up so I could take a short nap and all I could think of was how horrible everything in life was. This was around the time I was about to jump off the tallest building in town but someone saw me...

I don't think you can guarantee that you'll have a good self-induced manic episode. It's not safe.

Anyway, definitely talk to your doc. Just because these meds make ya feel crappy and zombie like doesn't mean other drugs will. Lithium & celexa & risperdal combo I was an angry angry zombie. I ended up ODing on lithium (apparently I'd been dehydrated for months) and I hated celexa. So my doc tried wellbutrin and risperdal, and that's what I take now. My mind is so much more clear. Everything's like it was before times got crazy - I'm creative, I can focus on music/art/writing/reading, my sense of humor is definitely back (I'm a big goofball) and I'm happy with life. I can sleep at night. I remember to eat.
Maybe if you try some different meds they'll work better for you.

Gods I hate how we're all test rats for these pills with horrible side effects. Taking all a bunch of them and finding that they don't work for you is definitely discouraging. Hang in there. There's bound to be a combo that will work for you!

 

[das_feuer]

Das Feur that is bullshit about being able to be creative/productive while on certain meds. Its as if you didn't even listen to him. He TOLD US he can't be creative when on these meds, so how can you come in here and say "you can be creative on the medications" when he clearly outlined that he can NOT. The arguement isn't that he can't be creative at all (I don't think any drug can take away ALL of your creative ability), is that he can't be creative enough to do what he wants. And it seems rather ignorant to tell him he can when you don't know a single thing about him and hes already stated otherwise.

THAT is "illogical". Just becase YOU can be creative, does NOT mean that he can too.

Please go read a few books on bipolar disorder. You don't have to take my word for it; if you read a few books you will realize that there is a great deal of research to support my claims; yes, he or she CAN be creative while on bipolar medications. Please do some research into the connection between bipolar disorder and creativity (bipolar individuals tend to be much more creative on average than persons who do not have the disorder). This also applies to bipolar individuals who take their medications.

More important than this persons perceived ability to be creative or not is the fact that, if he or she continues to stay off of his or her medications, disaster will occur. This is 100% certain. No bipolar person should ever go off of his medications in an attempt to become "more creative"; this is just a copout. A bipolar person who is not on medications is just asking for trouble, asking to commit suicide, or asking to die from doing something heroically stupid while manic (risky behaviors, poor judgment, doing things that he would normally never even consider doing while in his right mind).

I don't think you know as much as you believe you do when it comes to the severity of this situation or the mechanics of bipolar disorder. As I said, though, please don't take my word for it; go and read some books and you will understand that I have firm grounds for my advice. Here's one book that you can start with if you can locate it, which happens to go into some detail about what I have already stated in my previous reply here:

"New Hope for people with Bipolar Disorder" Revised 2nd edition. By Jan Fawcett, M.D., Bernard Golden, PH.D., and Nancy Rosenfeld. Three Rivers Press: NY.

I have been living with bipolar disorder for well over a decade and I have been managing it successfully for most of that time. I have come into contact with more individuals than I can count who have the disorder and the "I can't be creative" excuse is one of the most common things that I have encountered among my bipolar brothers and sisters. It's complete bullshit. At first, I missed having that "touch of the muse", the endless and effortless flight of ideas, inspiration, and artistic drive that came without any work on my part while I was hypomanic or manic. I felt that I couldn't be creative. That is NOT creativity; that's just mania, delusional mania. Great artists have to develop and master their own individual creative process. Bipolar people on medications need to learn how to develop their own creative process and follow through in developing ideas; it's something that can be EASILY remedied.

Also, I am not really going to believe that Leiphos is capable of making informed and responsible decisions at this point: He/she has become a danger to him/herself by discontinuing medications that are paramount to his/her mental health and overall stability and likely this person is NOT thinking right/rationally. I've seen it a million times over and I come in contact with it at the outpatient center I have worked at for the last several years.

Think what you will, but at least go read up on it so you can see that my input has merit.

 

[Lolie]

I miss the way I feel when manic - I rule the fucking world. On one hand it'd be fun to be that way again, so productive, so much energy, good times.

On the other hand I really really regret all the times I walked around butt ass naked at strangers' parties. Yeah when I'm manic I'm not too fond of clothes...and I have no clue what's appropriate.
Or all the times I interrupt people and I'm totally rude but I don't even realize I'm being rude. Or that part where people think I'm a tweaker because I haven't slept in a week and haven't really eaten much either for that matter and I'm talking a mile a minute about aliens and unicorns and sparkly shit. Oh and last time I almost quit my job to chain smoke cigarettes and dance to electronica 24/7. Seemed like a BRILLIANT idea. Glad I didn't do it.

I could have written that almost word for word.

One of the worst things about hypomania is that it gets validated a lot. You're energetic, you're enthusiastic, you get shit done, you're confident and often very engaging - all things which society tends to reward. So not only are you feeling great yourself, but other people are giving you a shitload of validation and that only encourages you to take on even more stuff because you feel fucking invincible.

And then it all starts to unravel.

 

[MeddieFrac]

I wish I could induce a natural (not drug-induced) mania. But I'm just stuck in depression. Never really changes for me, unfortunately

 

[leiphos]

Virginia Woolf wrote her novels during manic/hypomanic episodes, and then crashed into depression when they were finished and published. Of course, she also had psychotic breaks where she heard birds singing to her in Greek, among other things... and drowned herself eventually

but still