Bupe Getting rid of bupe with a weak full agonist(obviously after tapering down to 0mg)

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

I'm pretty sick being on bupe, it's not good for my liver according to a recent blood test(s). Yep, now my clinic has people take blood tests for liver enzymes because of the absurdly large amount of people who get pancreatits / liver swelling like if they were alcoholics. I'm not sure if it's the naloxone in suboxone (and yeah no, canada never got Subutex, we got F'd in the A in 2006, one of the first knee-jerk reaction of this "conservative" government here in .ca).

Many people in the waiting room at my 5-6 weeks-ly appointments have told me such things, people on methadone seems to fare way better. The problem is I used to be on methadone and did well too, until it caused massive weight gain due to fatigue, testosterone down the toilet, along with cortisol. The latter condition is now fine, no more Cortef. I usually get very few side effects from all medication but I had to get it from the 'done, which well, has a hell lot longer list of known side effects than most drugs on earth. Methadone induced hypogonadism is shit, SHIT, i'm tapering myself from the testosterone shots right now because it seems that after a pituitary gland MRI, I don't have tumors, it is slightly swollen though which is causing some of these problems. But I'm getting carried away here.

I have access to AH-7921 and MT-45 from extremely safe contacts. Seems like both are worth 80% morphine's potency. I know about how AH-7921 is caustic as hell and should not be taken other than in a gelcap.

My reasoning might be strange to some, but I think if I had all access to Empracets or CodeineContins at all times for free I could get rid of this bupe thing. And go back to the pain clinic, where I belong to, which even the ORT clinic doctors agree with, they've seen the ct scans of my left jaw area...

I'm wondering if anyone ever pulled this with those 2 rc opioids or regular rx painkillers. The way bupe saturates your receptors WAY more than methadone...I've read a bunch of papers and it looks like people who are on bupe long-term ( a bad idea,very bad idea btw, i'm only doing it cause i'm fucked otherwise) have objective damage to their mu opi receptors, maybe some of the others too, bupe sticks to kappa massively too, right? (not coming across as a know it all) :D... which means that some people get stuck in situations where they actually fried their endorphin/enkephalin(sic) system due to long term HIGH dose bupe, I'm at 12mg a day,that's 39mg of Dilaudid IV, which when D was my DOC, stilll is, but whatever, I never ever thought about going that high, highest shot I ever did was 2 8mg triangles...with dillies, 4-6mg is plenty, for the rush anyway), I'm saying this because, i'm sure BuTrans patches work good for moderate pain, I know an old lady who is on the 20ug/h patches and of course she doesn't experience bupe like most people out there.

Alright, I know many of you will think, no man, you're doing it backwards, but I'm just really worried that bupe isn't the miracle its purported to be, at least, not with long term use, and it's a crappy painkiller, pain still keeps me awake all night sometimes. Sure those RC's could be worse, but it would be for all intents and purposes short term, I'm just wondering, with this sky high tolerance I have to opiates (god help me should I hurt myself, I hear they use insane doses of fentanyl, never had fentanyl, never want to have it, shit creeps me out.), would it mean that I'd have to get a month's worth of supply? Two?

Sorry, I'm at lost here and I feel like shit in this 27c(but really 39c with humidity) temperature sitting here not having slept in 2 days.

Mods if this is the wrong forum for this kind of question/thread, feel free to move it.

Namaste

 

[Lorne???]

... 12mg buprenorphine is NOWHERE NEAR AS STRONG AS 38mg IV hydromorphone, seriously, that is a huge dose.

And buprenorphine doesn't cause any damage whatsoever, that is just silly. Opioids are non-toxic, and in any case buprenorphine is just a partial agonist, with less intrinsic activity than other opioids.

Come man, man, the things you're saying aren't making any sense, do some research.

(BTW, studies have shown that 8mg(IIRC) IM hydromorphone induced full agonist opioid effects in subjects after taking buprenorphine, with 16mg only partially blocking and 8mg not blocking at all(or only a very small amount.)

 

[RedRum OG]

Never heard of liver problems associated with bupe.

However I was on bupe at 6-8mg/day for about a year, and it really fucked my receptors. Opiates just don't feel the same anymore. I think there is also a very high probability it was responsible for pushing me into a depression that I'm still struggling to get out of. Also I always had this feeling like I had minor withdrawals. I was consistent with my 6-8mg a day for a full year and I never really stabilized. Always really sensitive skin, anxiety, depression.. It was weird. It was like bad, long, long PAWS, except obviously that couldn't have been the case.

Bupe does seem like a miracle maintenance drug in a lot of ways, but after a while on a medium-low dose I really started to notice the fucked up parts. Am now on methadone, tapering down, and much much happier. Doing well.

 

[RTrain]

I will say this, I was on 2 mg a day for about 2.5 months and had normal liver tests when they took them, this was recent. That is about the longest amount of time I've been on Suboxone before I fell back on the H train(I've done the switch 4-5 times now), but 2.5-3 months is hardly enough time to determine if it is causing much damage. I know people who have been on it for 5+ years, not sure about them but I really never would think to ask them if they might be having liver/pancreatic issues.

But the one thing I can't stand is the insistence to continue to add the naloxone. It is complete BS anyone saying it deters abuse. I've snorted it and plugged it with no adverse effects. There are all sorts of people who have shot it with no issues whatsoever. The only issues people state with shooting Suboxone are most likely not due to the naloxone, but rather that its bad to shoot pills in general.

I too have been drawn away from methadone, though I haven't tried it. But I have heard it causes weight gain, fatigue and lowered testosterone levels. I work a job where i cannot afford those problems, at least not until I am a year in and certified for the job.


So how long you been on the bupe @ 12 mg? I actually think the idea of using a weak full agonist like codeine to ween off Bupe is not the worst idea, could work well if you do it right. You basically wait until you start withdrawing pretty bad from the Subs, then titrate up the dose of codeine or maybe even hydrocodone (probably strongest I'd go, trying something like oxycodone might be too risky). Once you get relief you stay there and just maintain for about as long as the acute w/d phase of bupe lasts, which I believe is 2-4 weeks depending on individuals metabolism, dose, how they dosed. Then I guess taper off the full agonist and it will only be like 3-5 days of withdrawal that shouldn't be too bad, espeically is you taper it down real low. You could also just jump off that if the dose you were taking wasn't too high. Like if 50-60 mg of hydro or 120-180 of codine a day was sufficient, I thnk cold turkeying that isn't to bad and much, much better than CTing a cupe habit fo anything over 2 mg/day

Not too sure about those RCs, I've only done research on 1 (the AH) and read some iffy stuff about its health effects from a person who got addicted to it, but that was a isolated case and I assume you would try to use it for as short as necessary.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

... 12mg buprenorphine is NOWHERE NEAR AS STRONG AS 38mg IV hydromorphone, seriously, that is a huge dose.

And buprenorphine doesn't cause any damage whatsoever, that is just silly. Opioids are non-toxic, and in any case buprenorphine is just a partial agonist, with less intrinsic activity than other opioids.

Come man, man, the things you're saying aren't making any sense, do some research.

(BTW, studies have shown that 8mg(IIRC) IM hydromorphone induced full agonist opioid effects in subjects after taking buprenorphine, with 16mg only partially blocking and 8mg not blocking at all(or only a very small amount.)

Do it, find a good opiate converter, even my doctor said 12mg of bupe a day was around that number of dilaudid IV'd when I mentioned it to him. As for damage to opiate receptors from bupe, there's several accounts and discussion about this in ADD or whatever the new name of that forum is now.

I've also been thinking of using Hydromorph-Contins or Dilaudid orally, but it would be hard to fight the temptation to shoot it up, since that was my DOC...but they give these like candies out here, being that hydrocodone is rarely used for pain and mostly as an antitussive, docs go with oral Dilaudid/HMC's (the 12mg gelcaps and under) are extremely common, it's how it's used here compared to what Hycodan (your lortabs, norcos, vicodins etc.). Because really, eating 6mg HydromorphContins when I had a very low tolerance was an extreme waste of time, same as eating 10 1mg dilaudid,I guess that's why the guy who was moving them my way was eating 4mgx4 every 4 hours everyday + 2 or 3 30mg HMC's a day...

Anyhow, these 2 posts of yours got me thinking, always good to have more than one mind about such complicated matters, which I cannot discuss with any irl friends (only the dealer knew, and i don't think he knew I was shooting up), I kept this a secret because otherwise nobody would be talking to me anymore, which would make things worse. Even friends who are everyday (when they can) freebase smokers would cut contact right away if they knew about this so...

Keep it up with the advices, and of course, obviously I'd rather deal with true and established opioids if I do this, if I ever get a chance, but that would mean acquiring enough one shot and not ever going back. My source for these things is a cranky old man who well, considering his shoulder conditions, has every reasons to be cranky from the constant pain he's in, but he's not a pleasant person to be with, I never forgave the guy for inventing debts which is what made me go to rehab then ORT, just for him to tell me a week after I get out of rehab that he had his numbers messed up and that I didn't owe him a thing.

 

[The Doc.]

Lorne I think was meaning that much hydromorphone IV'D is not as much as 12 mgs bupe when taken SUBLINGUALLY due to how much is wasted mabye if you IVed that much sub you would be up there with 38mgs hydromorphone IVed but no way taken sublingually your doctor is for getting how .ich gets wasted via the sublingual route.

 

[Lorne???]

%^^^

Yes that is exactly what I meant.

If you IV it obviously it's a lot stronger, BUT 12mg IV buprenorphine is beyond the ceiling effect, and I still don't think that even at the maximum dose, buprenorphine could ever be quite as strong 38mg hydromorphone, which again is a huge does(I think they use 40mg IM for lethal injections? Can't really remember.)

Oh, and I meant 16mg hydromorphone earlier, don't know why I said 8!

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

No, the converter I used was Suboxone(SC) to Dilaudid(IV) and it said it was equal to 39mg of Dilaudid IV. I wanted to verify what my tolerance now compared to my old habit...When I was on methadone, I got to 60mg tops, then a month or so later started to taper by 2-3mg each month. When I got to around 44-47mg of M-Done I "relapsed" as in, I wanted to sleep well (I metabolized the stuff way fast, by 7 pm I wasn't fully satisfied anymore, when taking the stuff at 8-9 am. I felt the Dilaudid rush then.

With bupe, I feel absolutely no rush, and then I get slightly high (after waiting 2 days) after slamming doses I wouldn't even touch before going into rehab and then ORT. So much that I slammed 20mg of Dilaudid at once and all it did was add to the respiratory depression effects to a scary level which made me reach for my Symbicort inhaler, something that rarely ever happens anymore.

Bupe isn't like other classic natural and semi-synthetic opiates, it binds to your mu receptors and maybe others more than anything and no opiate will dislodge it, unless we're talking about retarded doses of fentanyl (what I was told I would be given if I would get hurt). I agree with your original assertion over the safety of opioids in general, but bupe is totally something else. These receptors shouldn't be constantly filled/stimulated like this, even if the action of the binding is partial agonism, there's really no point in debating this further unless you read up stuff very intelligent people wrote about it on ADD and other places on the internet, actual science, not hearsay.

I've been on suboxone since 10 months now, btw, to those who asked.

 

[eng55]

...However I was on bupe at 6-8mg/day for about a year, and it really fucked my receptors. Opiates just don't feel the same anymore. I think there is also a very high probability it was responsible for pushing me into a depression that I'm still struggling to get out of. Also I always had this feeling like I had minor withdrawals. I was consistent with my 6-8mg a day for a full year and I never really stabilized. Always really sensitive skin, anxiety, depression.. It was weird. It was like bad, long, long PAWS, except obviously that couldn't have been the case.
Bupe does seem like a miracle maintenance drug in a lot of ways, but after a while on a medium-low dose I really started to notice the fucked up parts. Am now on methadone, tapering down, and much much happier. Doing well.

wow, this feels like me exactly... low dose here, 1-2mg/day for 2-3yrs of straight bupe... i feel like i am never stabilized and always entering/exiting withdrawls a 100x a minute kinda thing... then all the sudden one week, it will be heaven.... then back to the daily sh*t (i've tried everything, monitoring food, nutrients, times, water intake, metabolism, _EVERYTHING_ to figure out wtf causes such massive changes)... never had a liver test, maybe thats it. Thinking of m'done as well but im scared because i hear the w/d's are devil-like.... me scared.

 

[trigeminalbooboo]

I was on 4mg subs for 8 weeks and wd was horrific. I transitioned to 80mg oxy for a month and then quit it ct. Even at 80mg oxy the wd from the bupe was tough for a couple weeks. I think after three weeks at 80mg OC I started to feel "normal". Then I started playing with the oxy to the point of nodding off at a wedding. That convinced me I needed to quit it.

Ct from 80 oxy sucked but it was only a week and then I was physically fine. PAWS continued for about a month total but I'm a big supporter of going back to your DOC for a month or so when it's time to get off bupe. Yeah, tons of risk when it comes to major relapse but until you're in the throws of sub withdrawals you have no idea.

EDIT:
I don't think you need or even want to taper the bupe to zero prior to starting a full agonist. I also think the receptors get tweaked on bupe.

 

[silas GUY]

What is the deal with everyone thinking that suboxone somehow damages receptors! receptors are proteins and enzymes that react to neurotransmitters. yes tolerance is changed by subs in the same way antibiotics make super bugs. but the mu receptor you have now is not the same receptor you will have in a month. i was on subs for 9 months and went back to oxy and i can get just as high on oxy as i did before i started subs. if i take 30-50mg it kills my pain and gets me noding and feeling good. i think most people don't really understand how biochemistry works or pharmacology. its not really that different then say when you first got high from perk 10/325 and went to 30mg oxy ir then tried to get high on the 10/325 again. once you take high dose narcotics you will have a high tolerance for a wile. but if you were to stop all opiates for 3 months you could again get high on 10mg perk.