Getting into the trip mindset sober

[Ismene]

Not all Buddhist teachers do frown on them so much.

I'd be interested in reading any buddhists who appreciate psychedelics - I got that book "zig zag zen Buddhism and psychedelics" and it was a major disappointment. It's all "Drugs arn't as good as sweeping the ashram for 50 years" or "I used drugs once but then I realised the Buddha is the better way".

If you're enlightened, all phenomena appear perfectly pure. So, drugs are an ultimately unnecessary crutch.

Is anyone enlightened tho? Everyone I've ever read who claimed enlightenment was either having sex with his underage disciples or, like the buddhist monks, had slaves with one eye polishing their sandals. (the other eye having been gouged out for pinching a goat..)

Just because I appreciate Buddhist teachings doesn't mean that I think that all Buddhist institutions contain entirely perfect people.

Doesn't that say more about you than the teachings tho? Doesn't it say you've combined the buddhist teachings with your own western sensibilities. I mean, all those countless generations of Tibetan buddhist monks studying the teachings for a thousand years - and what good did it do them? They were still slavemasters who would bullwhip the hide off your back if you got dogshit on their sandals.

 

[Quantum Perception]

Why does psychedelics and other spiritual practices have to be in conflict? Can't we just see them as all trade-off of each other? each with its own ups and downs.

If anything, the spiritual traditions may feel intimidated because psychedelic spirituality is more applicable in a world where you cant cut off completely from society. So in our day and time, psychs help the modern person much more so then some of the older routes.

So for all the various routes to enlightenment, psychedelics may be the most applicable to the modern person, which may intimidate some of the practitioners of other traditions.

 

[space_monkey]

I'd be interested in reading any buddhists who appreciate psychedelics - I got that book "zig zag zen Buddhism and psychedelics" and it was a major disappointment. It's all "Drugs arn't as good as sweeping the ashram for 50 years" or "I used drugs once but then I realised the Buddha is the better way".

Well, as I said, it seems like Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche is somewhat pro-psychedelics. Another quote from him:

Student: It seems that once this casket is opening a little it is a similar experience to tripping or taking other kinds of drugs. So I was wondering, if for example, a person takes something like magic mushrooms, can this be helpful or is it just misleading?
Rinpoche: That's a good question. Tulku Orgyen Rinpoche, one of the past great masters, was offered all kinds of things such as LSD, cocaine, heroin, and so forth. After trying these various substances, he concluded if it is a good practitioner taking these things, it can help in enhancing the practice. If someone who is not really a good practitioner should take these things, it is a different matter. It could then become an addiction, and you don't want to have a tripping dependence on a substance. Beccoming dependant on a substance means you then become a slave of the substance. It's far better to have to depend on your mind.
Student: How about if you just do it once?
Rinpoche: I think it can help but that all depends. I mean, with many of the dharma students I have met, they seem to have had their introduction to the dharma by taking drugs. This is not so true nowadays, though. But for the older generation, many have come to the dharma out of being hippies or out of their experiences with drugs. So in such circumstances, before you do one-hundred-thousand prostrations to Guru Rinpoche, you should do at least half a prostration to the drug.

Is anyone enlightened tho? Everyone I've ever read who claimed enlightenment was either having sex with his underage disciples or, like the buddhist monks, had slaves with one eye polishing their sandals. (the other eye having been gouged out for pinching a goat..)

I honestly have never heard of any Buddhist teachers claiming to be enlightened. Announcing your own attainments is very much pooh-poohed in Buddhism. Basically because it doesn't have many possible positive outcomes, only negatives. The only master I have ever even heard rumors about attaining buddhood is Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche.

Just because I appreciate Buddhist teachings doesn't mean that I think that all Buddhist institutions contain entirely perfect people.

Doesn't that say more about you than the teachings tho? Doesn't it say you've combined the buddhist teachings with your own western sensibilities. I mean, all those countless generations of Tibetan buddhist monks studying the teachings for a thousand years - and what good did it do them? They were still slavemasters who would bullwhip the hide off your back if you got dogshit on their sandals.

No, I don't think so. I think you're just highlighting the negatives. There are a lot of non-corrupt masters out there. I have personally met some who are far from the kind of person you are describing. I've also met some very experienced practitioners. I have seen for myself the results of inner peace and kindness these people have achieved. I have also met a couple nutbags who somehow became masters.

Anyway, I feel like I'm on some religious crusade promoting Buddhism, and that's not what I set out to do here. I don't want to be a fanatic. I just wanted to throw out the idea of Tibetan Buddhism being more closely related to the psychedelic experience than Zen. If you read more into teachings on Dzogchen or even some of the higher tantric vehicles, along with Tibetan art, I think you'll see what I'm saying. If you're not interested, it's no skin off my back.

 

[Ismene]

Well, as I said, it seems like Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche is somewhat pro-psychedelics.

That's not what I'd call a ringing endorsement of psychedelics tho is it - that's sort of like "It's good for beginners but that's about it".

And talking of addiction when you talk about mushrooms? Clearly he hasn't got the first clue about what psychedelics are.

I honestly have never heard of any Buddhist teachers claiming to be enlightened.

But they talk about being on the "path" to enlightenment. If the path never actually goes anywhere then why trust them when they say "Buddhism is the way but taking mushrooms isn't"?

And the concept of "enlightenment" is at the center of buddhism - that's supposedly why they follow it isn't it? Because they want to be like the enlightened buddha?

No, I don't think so. I think you're just highlighting the negatives. There are a lot of non-corrupt masters out there.

I'm just pointing out the history - for a thousand years tibetan monks studied buddhism and for a thousand years they were slavemasters. Sure, they don't go in for slavery now but that's more to do with western ideas of right and wrong than anything they learned from buddhism - otherwise they'dve stopped slavery hundreds of years ago.

I have seen for myself the results of inner peace and kindness these people have achieved.

I'm not knocking em - apart from I don't like buddhists knocking psychedelics - I'm just saying psychedelics were the best path for me.

 

[space_monkey]

That's not what I'd call a ringing endorsement of psychedelics tho is it - that's sort of like "It's good for beginners but that's about it".

I don't think so. I would emphasize this part: "if it is a good practitioner taking these things, it can help in enhancing the practice."

And talking of addiction when you talk about mushrooms? Clearly he hasn't got the first clue about what psychedelics are.

Right... It seems like he vaguely understands what tripping means, but not much other than that. Clearly he's never actually done psychedelics.

And the concept of "enlightenment" is at the center of buddhism - that's supposedly why they follow it isn't it? Because they want to be like the enlightened buddha?

Yes, but nobody really comes out and claims full-on buddhahood. Of course, there are many many Tibetan masters called tulkus who are supposed to be reincarnated beings that have attained a very high degree of realization, just not buddhahood. Many of these tulkus seem dubious, but there are some that, in my opinion, actually seem to be realized.

But, finding other people who have become enlightened isn't really the point of Buddhism. The point is discovering your true condition, nothing else. Just discovering that the true nature of our body, speech, and mind is already completely perfect, peaceful, infinitely wise and compassionate. Really. All of the practices, meditation, chanting, art, devotion, etc. are all just window dressing.

I'm not knocking em - apart from I don't like buddhists knocking psychedelics - I'm just saying psychedelics were the best path for me.

Yup, everyone has their own path. I really believe that.

Again... My point isn't necessarily whether Buddhism is a valid path to enlightenment or not. Just that TB has a lot of parallels with the psychedelic experience. Of course, I am a Buddhist, so I do think it is a valid path, but that's beside the point in this thread.