Misc Functional Tolerance to Clonaz + Adderall - Any Alternatives?

[Wisemind14]

I am not sure I am posting this in the right place, so I am depending on the moderator to move it if necessary. Thanks in advance.

I too am sort of looking for a calm but focused combination...however I have had a lot of experience finding something that did work, but stopped working and am searching in vain to replace it.

I am an adult woman with legitimate prescriptions for the following meds I will mention.

I took adderall and klonipin together (but not at the same time initally) for about 10 years. I OD'd on adderall and ended up hospitalized with acute psychosis. That was in 2010 and it hasn't happened since. I'd grown very fond of Adderall and enjoyed the euphoria and staying up all night.

Adderall was like a miracle drug for me. Both for impulse control issues as well as ADHD. It worked amazingly for many years. My tolerance increased of course, but I had an MD who could think outside the box so he prescribed it as I needed it basically. My klonopin tolerance has also increased in that amount of time as well.

But something significant happened...maybe not suddenly but over the course of a few years. I found that if I took 2mg Klonipin, waited about 30 minutes and then took 40 mg adderall I had this feeling that..again developed over time...but that I found extremely helpful in my daily life and with overall quality of life.

I was able to get things done quickly. I was engaged in my activities, I was very calm (and I have a pretty significant anxiety disorder), I got a tremendous amount of work accomplished in half the time, I felt more social and confident, & content. I exercised simply and without complaint, I was socially adept and enjoyed my interactions and I was focused without the jitteriness.

Mainly I was spontaneously motivated with nearly no effort on my part to do things. I didn't even KNOW what these things were until I took the drugs. In fact much like the movie "Limitless" all I had to do was take the drugs and wait. There was no obsessing. No analyzing. No hesitation. I just ACTED. But not impulsively.

I got the tip of this mixture off of this site a few years ago. So I tried it. And it was AWESOME...until it wasn't. I developed a tolerance for high doses of Adderall, and the effects began to wear off. I would blow through my prescriptions in two weeks and then I was down for the rest of the month. That's at the late stage.

I now take Vyvanse...which is a very good, clean stimulant and works for me for what it is intended to do, but in the years with adderall and klonopin I accidentally stumbled upon something amazing and as I look back, I realize I was probably actually "high" but didn't know it. I have no hard drug experience. Always followed my doctor's orders for psych meds, and never was considered "drug seeking." And I don't drink alcohol.

But as fate would have it, I find myself in a bit of a "situation." I CANNOT RECREATE THAT FEELING. I feel depressed. I have tried everything..from Modafinil, to Vyvanse, Phenylpiracetam, Nooept, Theanine and Caffiene, even green tea tablets WITH klonipin - in all combinations that seem reasonable and I still lack motivation. I am no longer the same "me." Every once in a while (by accident I'm convinced) I'll feel that feeling again, but I can't duplicate it with consistency like I used to. I don't know what caused what and so on.

The reason I am writing is to ask any of you out there if you have any insight, or experience with these two drugs in combination, and if you were or are able to find replacements in the face of inevitable increases in tolerance levels.

I never got into car accidents. There were no negative experience with this "cocktail" unless I was crashing. Then I'd just take more and I was fine. Until that stopped working too.

I think that life is short. If you find something that enhances your life and makes you a better person then why wouldn't you take it?

My doctor retired. I never did tell him what I was doing...and my new MD does NOT know I am doing this with the meds he prescribes but I cannot imagine it would make him happy.

Again, moderator, and more seasoned members...my apologies if I put this post in the wrong place. I appreciate any help in advance if you decide it belongs somewhere else and would appreciate it being moved if you think it maybe more helpful to post it elsewhere.

I have been on this site for 4 years and this is my first post. So go easy on me OK? lol....
Thanks and Peace,

 

[d1nach]

I dont understand what your asking.

But if your hoping for a supplement or nootropic thats like amphetamine i can save you hundreds of dollars saying i doubt youll ever find one.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

It sounds like you ran into tolerance. Have you been consistently taking these meds and then the just stopped working? What have your dosages looked like?

I might have missed it, but why are you now taking Vyvanse and not Adderall when Adderall was working well for you?

 

[Wisemind14]

Sorry...kind of a lost post. The question? Is there a replacement that creates the same kind synergistic effects like Adderall and Klonipin?

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Pretty much any benzo and amphetamine combo. There's no magic pill that will recreate those effects.

 

[CFC]

Sorry...kind of a lost post. The question? Is there a replacement that creates the same kind synergistic effects like Adderall and Klonipin?

I think it pretty awesome that you managed to reach a point where you could just rationally decide something and actually do it without extreme internal/subconscious/emotional resistance (I have bad ADHD too). But I have known other people describe similar experiences with GABA agonism (GABA being strongly implicated in ADHD nowadays) + stimulant and, alas, it always seems to fade in time. Maybe if you took 6 months off both meds, it might resume for a few weeks. But that's probably it for the golden era I'm afraid.

I know it sounds boring, but meditation/mindfulness is a sorely underutilised technique for achieving the aims you seek, albeit it takes more effort. But even with just the vyvanse in you, it should be possible to meditate some way back.

 

[Keif' Richards]

This is really unfortunate OP, but you're pretty much following a similar course to the majority of other users who have used Benzodiazepines and Amphetamines chronically, especially in combination. I don't mean to be patronizing or to treat you like a child in any way, but this is a totally clear and predictable trajectory when prescribing someone medication like this.

Historically, it was thought that the combination of sedatives and stimulants was the miracle drug society had been waiting for. Amphetamines were awesome and made housewives work at double-time, but they would sometimes end up being "moody" due to their constant stimulation. The cure, of course, was the addition of Barbiturates to the cocktail. Barbiturates are the ancestors of our Benzodiazepines, but for the matter we are discussing, their usage was for all of the same indications.

The problem, and it is actually a problem, is that the usage of sedatives in combination with Amphetamine can render the user unaware of how negatively the Amphetamines are effecting their body and mind. The terminus often times, was said housewife becoming addicted to and dependent upon both Amphetamines and Barbiturates and it was pretty difficult to get them back to normal from this state.

Basically, the same combination that "worked for you" would also "work" for the majority of human beings. Some people, I feel, don't realize the fact that the Amphetamines that "just worked so well for them" or "was the missing piece in their lives" would do so for any other human being. I think because the drug is prescribed after some kind of test or screening implies that the drug is somehow only applicable to certain people. Amphetamines make everything interesting to everybody. Everyone writes better papers on Amphetamine.

The only thing that you can do after becoming dependent upon the cocktail is to stop or reduce use and allow tolerance to recede.

 

[sekio]

^ That's absolutely right. There's no such thing as a free lunch in pharmacology, unfortunately... tolerance will doom any "miracle combination" eventually.

Motivation is something you have to drum up within yourself, all drugs will do is remove some mental barriers to doing so. But there's no reason you can't bypass these mental barriers by sheer force of will too.

 

[Wisemind14]

Response to Sekio

"Drum up motivation?" Thanks but I have had problems with depression (a different animal than ADHD I know).. and lack of motivation since I was very young. I cannot "summon" it up by sheer will, but that's not for a lack of trying. If I could do this I would have done so by now. This isn't my first rodeo. I've been at this "stuff" for almost 30 years.

I do not believe, nor do I endorse a 'pull yourself up from your bootstraps' mentality particularly with those who have serious and persistent mental illness(es.)

The idea that one can "bypass these mental barriers by sheer force of will" is a statement that perpetuates stereotypes about mental health issues and mental illness. And the fact is, this kind of thinking does not lead to improvements in functioning.

Of course you would need to do a literature search to find the best treatment modality for each illness, as they all are different. Empirical research studies do not PROVE anything, but merely suggest a relationship between variables, and demonstrates if that relationship is statistically significant or not.

I was not clear about this in my initial post, but I DO have several MH diagnoses and have struggled since my early twenties.

Didn't think I really needed to share that.

I posted here because I know there are people on Bluelight who know a hell of a lot more about using chemicals and synergy than I do. I am trained in psychology and research, not pharmacology.

Thanks for your response.

 

[xbandit07x]

Klonopin and Dexedrine. I used to take 1 Mg klonopin prior to 40 Mg dexedrine and yes it is the best way to treat the brain.

My best advice is take the benzo even longer before the stim. Like Take klonopion, then wait a full Hour atleast before taking the Amphetamine.

When the benzo overrides the amp it kinda nulls the positive parts. I only took this combo for short term 3 months because of we guessed it, tolerance.

 

[CFC]

I don't think he's trying to perpetuate stigmas or anything, though I get what you're saying and how frustrating it can feel to be trapped in your own mind with people telling you to just 'do it'. But really, most drugs that impact the GABA system (to a greater degree than the stimulants) tend to cause some dependence and tolerance pretty quickly, and it's probably going to be very difficult to achieve what you want purely with pharmaceutical options.

I'm talking about GABA a lot because that would appear to be salient for you (as it is for quite a few with various forms of ADHD). You may find this introductory article on GABA and ADHD interesting, and this is a paper that you may also like to read (it's free).

Did you ever try something like phenibut or baclofen with your stimulant? If so, how did that feel? And when you took your combo before, did you take it every day, or only on those days when you really needed it for something important? And finally, how much exercise do you do (exercise can be incredibly helpful)?

 

[xbandit07x]

All other Gaba mixtures are quite ugly with a stimulant. Especially Plant Gabas. Even ethonol. Maybe the OP would get benefit from say Chamomile, but likely not.

 

[CFC]

All other Gaba mixtures are quite ugly with a stimulant. Especially Plant Gabas. Even ethonol. Maybe the OP would get benefit from say Chamomile, but likely not.

That's neither accurate or true.

If you're talking about yourself and your own experience, say so or it may mislead others.

 

[xbandit07x]

That's neither accurate or true.

If you're talking about yourself and your own experience, say so or it may mislead others.

From my experience, I have tried valerian, Skullcap, Chamomile, and L theanine with stimulants. L theanine works the best. Chamomile is okay. The rest interfere with the stimulants effect in a way that causes more anxiety.

OP likely needs gaba drugs with her ADHD meds to avoid her eyes getting buggy on the proper dose of it that treats her ADD. I think 2 MG klonopin is a lot though for mix with stimulants, and is likely to make it so it feels like the ADHD med is never working.

When I used to eat a 2 mg xanax bar or 2-3 mg klonopin prior to stimulants, I needed Close to 60-70 Mg instant release dexedrine (with a daily tolerance) to break out and feel Focused.

 

[Wisemind14]

Response to CFC

I think it pretty awesome that you managed to reach a point where you could just rationally decide something and actually do it without extreme internal/subconscious/emotional resistance (I have bad ADHD too). But I have known other people describe similar experiences with GABA agonism (GABA being strongly implicated in ADHD nowadays) + stimulant and, alas, it always seems to fade in time. Maybe if you took 6 months off both meds, it might resume for a few weeks. But that's probably it for the golden era I'm afraid.

I know it sounds boring, but meditation/mindfulness is a sorely underutilised technique for achieving the aims you seek, albeit it takes more effort. But even with just the vyvanse in you, it should be possible to meditate some way back.

I stumbled upon the combination of meds I mentioned by accident and found myself very torn about what to do. I have struggled with this.

I am not into getting high. Don't enjoy the out of control feeling, etc.. and I wouldn't ever put an illicit street drug in my body. Having said that, I don't feel like I'm really that much different from those who do.

My drugs are legal, that's maybe the only difference. I use the clinical words 'substance abuse' or 'substance dependence' because I think the word "addict" is pejorative and useless. But I have often thought about where my use "fits" in these categories.

HERE'S THE MAIN POINT: For nearly all of my adult life, or 20+ years, I have struggled with several mental health diagnoses. I did exactly what I was told, took a zillion different kind of pharmaceutical meds, attended every group under the sun, and I was still symptomatic.

I wasn't looking to feel GREAT, just not like everyday was a struggle, and not secretly hoping maybe some night I would go to sleep, and just not wake up the next morning. This went on for years.

Then I find out that I was not diagnosed as a kid with ADHD and wondered what my life would have looked like had they got me on a stimulant sooner. I have the kind where organizing, motivation, and task completion are the chief complaints. So I am introduced to a stimulant at around age 40. I recognized right away it would help me immensely.

It wasn't until much later that I discovered the synergistic effects of a stimulant and benzo taken within a certain period of time.

I never felt more like myself than I did when the effects slowly began to take shape.

Frankly, I'd had it with the bullshit of being ill and knowing that life COULD be better.

So I sort of felt "entitled" to what I'd discovered. I worked my ass off for years to try to get help in the way of counseling and groups (27 years worth...and I still go! And YES I LOVE mindfulness based therapies and practices) and nearly every medication under the sun and still my symptoms were relentless.

So I feel like I earned this. I believe we all feel pain, but suffering is optional. If I can do something to lessen the symptoms of debilitating mental illness, and this works, then you're damn right I'm going to take it. However, there are risks and there is certainly a downside, as described in my first post. It isn't black or white.

That's why I came to Bluelight. I see great value in a harm reduction approach to issues discussed here, including mine.
Thank you very much for your time.

 

[d1nach]

I would try to lower the amphetamine dose to where you dont need any benzo.

I take amphetamine extended release everyday and coming from someone so depressed i attempted suicide and was furious when i wokeup in icu for being kept alive i think drastically increases my mood.

However, benzos quickly stopped working leading to dose escalation and panic attacks even on them.

Also, while it does increase my mood. It isnt the only thing i do to address my mental health.

I also go to therapy, take a antidepressant, lithium and depakote, exercise (walk 3 miles a day), use this site as a form of social interaction, enrich my environment by doing, watching, listening and reading things i like.

 

[Wisemind14]

To: xbandit07x

Interesting...THANKS! I have found that the benzo is the "dominant" drug, if you will. Meaning that, like you wrote, they can often override the Amps and the positive effect of them. That's why it's so hard to know how much to mix with which stimulant you happen to be taking. But I notice some effects regardless of the stim.
I have taken time off both of them, just taking 1 mg of Klon to stave off the withdrawal bandit, and I felt pretty shitty, but in time I started to feel a little better. I can never figure out if its the stimulant I actually like better, or the benzo. Think it's the combo but nothing would surprise me.
I had a friend, who was in a recovery program, and he said in terms of mixing, "We used to do more cocaine just so we could drink more alcohol..."
Thought that was very interesting.
Thanks a lot for your response!

 

[motiv311]

Dude, I was on 60mg adderall and 2mg klonopin for years, all my early twenties.... best combo out there.... you are just getting a tolerance .... you need either a lot of time off, or a few days and a dopamineric reset i think its called NMDA , anyways, a lot of psychdelics or things like robitussin in a large amount can do this for you

 

[Wisemind14]

For: d1nach

Where on this site do you find social interaction? What area? Has it helped you?

Yes, I agree with you. I support a holistic approach to recovery from Mental Illness. I use many of the same coping skills you mentioned. I take responsibility for my illness and that means I'm responsible for my own recovery too. This takes many forms.

I find exercise to be paramount as an anti-anxiety activity. However, from someone who has been involved in high intensity work-outs for many years, my body just cannot do what it used to. I am in a slump right now. I can't seem to get motivated enough to start another DVD set (I have purchased many many BeachBody Products-not sure if you've heard of them-and prefer to work out at home.)

But I go through these periods where I cannot get GOING on the next thing. Eventually I do, but it takes some time. I DEFINITELY notice a difference in my mood, appetite, physical health, and overall enjoyment of life when I am working out and when I'm not.
Great points, thanks!

 

[Wisemind14]

To: motiv311

Wow. Yeah...I think that's on the horizon soon. What is NMDA? And isn't robitussin a cough syrup? Why does cough syrup reset your dopamine receptors?

PS: Ohhhh you mean like Ketamine and other dissociative drugs?