futura2012
Bluelighter
West fest you a west country boy then? nr bristol and the likes?
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Full on Come Up - Super Intense MDMA High mixed with Red Wine
- Thread starter futura2012
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avcpl
Bluelighter
Interesting. I've taken MDMA with orange juice (acid) and I have also taken it with baking soda and water (base). I did not have any significant differences between time of come-up, intensity of roll, nor length of roll....
I can't find any trip reports of anyone knowingly using different salts than HCL. Do you have any links? thanks.
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futura2012
Bluelighter
I think the juice brand would make a big difference in terms of PH and actual Citric Acid Content.
I dont think this is a PH issue. More to do with the specific acids reacting with the MDMA.
I dont know for sure its just a theory until someone can prove it one way or another.
I think Mark881 said he was going to give it a try. Lets see what he comes back with.
You might be right avcpl it might not do shit dunno.
When you say base with baking soda do you mean alkali?
I dont think this is a PH issue. More to do with the specific acids reacting with the MDMA.
I dont know for sure its just a theory until someone can prove it one way or another.
I think Mark881 said he was going to give it a try. Lets see what he comes back with.
You might be right avcpl it might not do shit dunno.
When you say base with baking soda do you mean alkali?
avcpl
Bluelighter
yes, a basic solution. I don't know if it does anything either and until we do a double blind study we probably never will since placebo effect needs to be controlled for. At the very least if someone is going to try it and has some friends have half of them try it and half of them not and compare notes the next day. I guess even if it is a placebo effect, if it works it works!
futura2012
Bluelighter
I get your point avcpl - mark coming back and saying it kicks ass isnt exactly science but if we get a few this kicks ass then maybe there is some science behind the madness.
Well the next event is in 2 weeks....I now have piracetam actually so that may confuse the test. I was going to do some piracetam to restore the magic.
I think crushing the powder up will give you fast fast absorption. It is difficult to do the wine/mdma crushed process if you drop just before you hit the queue to get in. I could put it in a plastic bottle but I feel that some might stick to the sides of the bottle, and I would need to drink it pretty quickly.
I might however, have a couple of glasses of redwine, then drop. But I am determiend to try this piracetam too...mmmm...
I think crushing the powder up will give you fast fast absorption. It is difficult to do the wine/mdma crushed process if you drop just before you hit the queue to get in. I could put it in a plastic bottle but I feel that some might stick to the sides of the bottle, and I would need to drink it pretty quickly.
I might however, have a couple of glasses of redwine, then drop. But I am determiend to try this piracetam too...mmmm...
futura, you're getting the wrong end of the stick with talk of "heavy bonds". The strength of the ionic bond isn't determined by the size of the ions but by the electrostatic attraction between the ions, the bond in MDMA.HCl is stronger than that in MDMA fumarate even though fumaric acid weighs more than HCl. Shulgin is definitely talking about anhydrous crystal dose.
futura2012
Bluelighter
Part one of that paragraph certainly isnt. Why the bad language?
Maybe better reworded in this way.
This is why MDMA can only ever be 84% pure in HCL form - for example (MDMA molecule = 84% Hydrochloride Acid molecule = 16% )
Re part 2.
If its not the molecule size/mass why does a different salt type have a different absorption speed? Personally I think the molecule mass could well be a possible cause. Perhaps there is something about the energy in the different ionic bonds?
Different salt types certainly cause different absorption speeds.
Whats your theory to be so addamently against the idea?
Bioavailability and Bioequivalence
http://www.iuphar.org/pdf/hum_55.pdf
Hello vader good to see you back. Where did you go?
I didnt mean heavy bond but heavy acid molecule. I assumed it was this bigger molecule that some how effects absorbsion speed?
Interesting you mention bond attraction. Why is the bond in HCL stronger than fumerate? I assumed if its a heavier acid molecule it needs more force to hold it to the MDMA? I guess if the ionic bond of MDMA always has the same attraction strength then a lighter molecule such as HCL forms a stronger bond?
Would appreciate it if you could clarify this.
On the channel 4 program recently drugs live the dose thing was a total cock up. We were told 83mG MDMA in the “clinical tests”. I then noticed they weighed out .1000g at the start of the program.
In this clinical trial it turns out they were referring to MDMA molecule not HCL. They also had it listed as 83mG not 84. A minor issue but I guess even the experts fuck it up. Just looking at the state of Shulgins lab it doesnt spell clinical perfection to me.
For one thing Its definitely not standardised.
I guess with Shulgin one argument for him refering to HCL would be 120mG HCL is a lot rounder than 100.8mG. Or then again maybe he meant 100mG and couldnt be fucked with the 0.8?
As someone suggested on ADD does it really matter?
Probably not?
Simply Etarded suggested in one debate I was having with him that it does. Once you get into the higher dose regions 400mG etc then 16% is quite a bit. I agree with this point.
The anhydrous one is difficult? He certainly mentions it at the end of his MDMA synth. I guess as he is aware of it he would have opted for the anhydrous option. We never know for sure of course unless we email him
This is the quote from PIHKAL at the end of the MDMA synth. The way I read it he implies anhydrous is not guaranteed.
Yeah, talking about MDMA.HCl being only 84% pure because the sample contains 84% MDMA molecules by weight is not exactly right. It's still pure MDMA HCl.
HCl is a stronger acid than fumaric acid. When HCl reacts with MDMA in aqueous solutions, it forms MDMA.H+ and Cl-. The difference in electronegativity here is great (chlorine is one of the most electronegative elements), so the force of attraction is very strong, with the electron spending almost all of its time near the chlorine atom. Fumaric acid is a much weaker acid, and so the bond it forms is weaker. Basically, the strength of the bond has nothing to do with the size of the ions, it's all about the electrons (as is pretty much anything in chemistry).
Shulgin would definitely been aiming to produce the anhydrous salt with the clear mp. He's a very skilled chemist, so I'm sure he managed.
HCl is a stronger acid than fumaric acid. When HCl reacts with MDMA in aqueous solutions, it forms MDMA.H+ and Cl-. The difference in electronegativity here is great (chlorine is one of the most electronegative elements), so the force of attraction is very strong, with the electron spending almost all of its time near the chlorine atom. Fumaric acid is a much weaker acid, and so the bond it forms is weaker. Basically, the strength of the bond has nothing to do with the size of the ions, it's all about the electrons (as is pretty much anything in chemistry).
Shulgin would definitely been aiming to produce the anhydrous salt with the clear mp. He's a very skilled chemist, so I'm sure he managed.
futura2012
Bluelighter
I do fully understand this concept. I just mentioned it in context of different acid molecules forming different percentages due to mass. As a result I wondered if these larger ions might have explained the absorption theory vs salt type?
Many thanks for explaining this. All makes sense now
Agreed he is a spot on chemist. I also like to listen to him in interview quite revolutonary ideas
I think the measured dose however im still not 100% convinced. It was just the way Prof Nutt on that C4 progrmme was using molecule dose not HCL dose. It seems there is no standard amongst scientists.I'll bump this, as this seems interesting. Anyone tried this wine thing yet?
If citric and tartaric acid are thought to be the catalysts for an enhancing MDMA, than I would think that just eating grapes or drinking grape juice (tartaric acid) and drinking lemon juice (citric acid) would do the same thing. The tartaric acid is already present in the grapes, so there's no need for vinification. There are other acids in wine, but tartaric acid is the main one. Another important acid in wine is malic acid, which is also found in the grapes. Also, it's worth noting that there's not much citric acid in wine. What little of it is in the grapes all but disappears during fermentation. If you don't like wine, why don't try a glass of grape juice and lemonade? Hell, you can go crazy and mix the two
According to wikipedia, lemons and limes have particularly high concentrations of citric acid. It can constitute as much as 8% of the dry weight of these fruits (about 47 g/L in the juices). Unless there's anything else about the wine that comes into play, I would think that a glass of grape juice and a glass of lemonade would do much the same as a glass of wine. There normally quite sweet, so no need to add extra sugar either. There's the possibility of potentiation with small amounts of alcohol with wine as opposed to the juice, I have no knowledge of this and can't really say.
I'm allergic to citrus fruits, so there's no way I can try this myself. I can, however, try the wine thing. I quite like wine, so I wouldn't mind giving it a go. What I'll probably mind is wrecking good wine with molly and sugar, hah! But hey, all in the name of science, right? That's right, I'm doing it for the SCIENCE.
The tartaric acid is present in both red and white wine, by the way. It does seem odd that these acids would have any effect on MDMA, considering the gastric acid they'll meet right after ingestion. Gastric acid, at least, has quite a lower pH, but there could be more going on, I really don't have the knowledge to say.
If citric and tartaric acid are thought to be the catalysts for an enhancing MDMA, than I would think that just eating grapes or drinking grape juice (tartaric acid) and drinking lemon juice (citric acid) would do the same thing. The tartaric acid is already present in the grapes, so there's no need for vinification. There are other acids in wine, but tartaric acid is the main one. Another important acid in wine is malic acid, which is also found in the grapes. Also, it's worth noting that there's not much citric acid in wine. What little of it is in the grapes all but disappears during fermentation. If you don't like wine, why don't try a glass of grape juice and lemonade? Hell, you can go crazy and mix the two
According to wikipedia, lemons and limes have particularly high concentrations of citric acid. It can constitute as much as 8% of the dry weight of these fruits (about 47 g/L in the juices). Unless there's anything else about the wine that comes into play, I would think that a glass of grape juice and a glass of lemonade would do much the same as a glass of wine. There normally quite sweet, so no need to add extra sugar either. There's the possibility of potentiation with small amounts of alcohol with wine as opposed to the juice, I have no knowledge of this and can't really say.
I'm allergic to citrus fruits, so there's no way I can try this myself. I can, however, try the wine thing. I quite like wine, so I wouldn't mind giving it a go. What I'll probably mind is wrecking good wine with molly and sugar, hah! But hey, all in the name of science, right? That's right, I'm doing it for the SCIENCE.
The tartaric acid is present in both red and white wine, by the way. It does seem odd that these acids would have any effect on MDMA, considering the gastric acid they'll meet right after ingestion. Gastric acid, at least, has quite a lower pH, but there could be more going on, I really don't have the knowledge to say.
