Full on Come Up - Super Intense MDMA High mixed with Red Wine

[futura2012]

Disclaimer:

The information discussed below is a theory. I do not condone taking of alcohol with MDMA. If you choose to take MDMA which can also be dangerous please do not attempt the ideas listed below.

I am seeking people who have already tried this. This is not an attempt to encourage you doing this.

I have no proof yet this will even work.

I have been passed on information that taking MDMA combined with a small glass of red wine could possibley make the come up extremely full on and the high more intense. Adding 2 teaspoons of sugar also apparently contributes to this effect.

The Science Theory - Some of you may know we have been discussing the different salt types of MDMA on the pills of the 90s thread. This theory has been explored as a potential cause as to why 90s pills might have different characteristics of todays super pills. Even though both pills contain just MDMA.

Most MDMA is assumed to be MDMA Hydrochloride. MDMA hydrochloride (HCL) is formed in the process of converting pure MDMA (MDMA Freebase) to its relevant salt form using Hydrochloric Acid. If you would like a different salt form of MDMA you select the appropiate acid to form MDMA Tartrate, MDMA Citrate, MDMA Acetate, MDMA Phosphate etc.

Some pills have been found with alternative salt forms, pictures have been submitted of alternative salt forms of MDMA Crystals. When you form this salt you produce what is known as an ionic bond between the MDMA molecule and the chosen acid molecule.

Different acids have different molecular mass (weight). This is why MDMA HCL can only ever be 84% pure for example (MDMA molecule = 84% Acid molecule = 16% ). Apparently it is this change in molecule size in the salt bond that is a big cause as to why different MDMA salts have different absorption speeds and thus produce a very different buzz.

So WTF does this have to do with Red Wine I hear you saying?

Red Wine contains Citric and Tartric Acids. Apparently the theory goes that in the stomach somehow these acids effect the breakdown process of MDMA before it hits the kidneys. In effect its kind of like taking a cross between MDMA Hydrocloride MDMA Tartrate and MDMA Citrate.

This BL thread seems a user has stumbled across the concept but cant understand why.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/347359-Wine-Mdma-A-GOOD-THING!-(try-this)

I am interested to know if anyone has tried this and if so what was it like?

 

[avcpl]

I've had small amounts of red wine with E on a couple different occasions. One roll was good, another disappointing. Can't really comment on it one way or the other because there were other variable involved that could have influenced the rolls in either direction...

 

[TryptamineBunny]

As an intense disliker of wine I cannot contribute directly here. But I would like to throw in a little more chemical info relevant to salts from my extremely limited knowledge of such things.

Salts of drugs serve two very useful purposes. Firstly, they tend to be more stable than the freebase, meaning they can be stored longer without losing potency. Secondly, salts tend to be more soluble than freebases, especially in water. Our good friend Doctor Shulgin referred to some kind of Martini, which was simply an MDMA salt dissolved in water. Yum. Must try this someday. I mention this just in case anyone thought that maybe making salts was just about adding an acceptable adulterant or something. Note that HCL salt adds the least dead weight to the molecule. A fumurate salt for example, with its four heavy oxygen atoms adds a huge weight to certain alkaloids. Dont buy MDMA fumurate (if its possible) if you have the choice!

Hopefully a bit more salt info might add to something later on in the thread.

 

[avcpl]

Here is some info on amphetamine absorption in base v. acidic environs: http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2980

What I often do is take baking soda and water a half our before and with my MDMA. I dissolve the pills in water before consuming. I do this because of nausea primarily.


One thing I wonder though, if you are concerned about one salt or one absorption method being more efficient (84% in HCL, etc.), why not just take a slightly greater amount of MDMA to make up the difference?

 

[futura2012]

Hello avcpl

I see exactly what you mean and nice observation but its not the purity as the issue. yes you are correct a more heavy acid molecule will make the MDMA weaker and you just take more to compensate.

But the issue is with the bond. For some reason the heavier bond ie MDMA + heavier acid makes the MDMA trip totally different. Some salts are longer lasting, some more intense etc.

Whilst in the process of researching salts, and chatting on the 90s thread I realised people discussing fillers, etc. Rumour has it certain sugars such as manitol can make a difference. As far as I was aware manitol is inert but some say not when mixed with MDMA.

Firstly, they tend to be more stable than the freebase, meaning they can be stored longer without losing potency. Secondly, salts tend to be more soluble than freebases, especially in water.

I think MDMA in freebase form is so unstable it usually lives in a non polar solvent such as Xylene, DCM etc. I am not sure how long you can store the freebase I guess one issue would be evaporation of the solvent. I think to store freebase it is normally put in a freezer.

yeah bang on MDMA salt is fully disolvable in water. if you chuck MDMA / molly into water and any non dissolved resedue is left that would be signs of a non water soluble cut.

Note that HCL salt adds the least dead weight to the molecule.

I think it is the lightest possible salt molecule. I am not sure if this is why but I beleive that also HCL is the least hygroscopic. I dunno if the weight of the bond has anything to do with this?

A fumurate salt for example, with its four heavy oxygen atoms adds a huge weight to certain alkaloids. Dont buy MDMA fumurate (if its possible) if you have the choice!

From a purity to weight perspective this would be the worst plan. But if it is infact possible might make for an interesting buzz.

Hopefully a bit more salt info might add to something later on in the thread.

Please do the MDMA salts are a fascinating discussion.

 

[Folley]

One thing I wonder though, if you are concerned about one salt or one absorption method being more efficient (84% in HCL, etc.), why not just take a slightly greater amount of MDMA to make up the difference?

Just because 16% of the molecule is HCL, doesn't mean you need to take anymore MDMA to reach the right dose.. Doses for MDMA are always listed in the HCL form, anything else would just be trivial and confuse way too many people. Plus, say you add 100mg MDMA HCL to a solution of red wine. The 84mg of actual 100% pure MDMA has some extra oxygen molecules or what have you binding to it, and will probably make it weigh MORE actually.


That 100mg of MDMA HCL (84mg MDMA) becomes say 200mg of MDMA Tartrate, but it still contains 84mg of MDMA... it's the other molecules of the salt that bind to the MDMA that make it heavier... hope that makes sense?




Futura, did you know that Vitamin C actually increases the rate at which you metabolize MDMA, causing a more intense but seemingly shorter roll?

http://www.addiva.net/2009/06/21/adderall-vitamin-c-interaction/ (remember, MDMA is an amphetamine as well)

 

[futura2012]

Doses for MDMA are always listed in the HCL form,

I am not sure Folley.

As edata wont tell you the salt type arent they just measuring the MDMA molecule spike on the GC/MS?

in which case its the MDMA molecule dose not the HCL dose. if any of the pills are phosphates etc the dose would be way off. Surely they are just measuring the MDMA molecule.

Another point that was raised on another thread is what does Shulgin mean when he sais I tried 120mG. is this 120mG + Acid or 120mG HCL?

I started a thread on ADD to try and get an answer.

That 100mg of MDMA HCL (84mg MDMA) becomes say 200mg of MDMA Tartrate, but it still contains 84mg of MDMA..

It wouldnt because Tartric Acid is a heavier molcule. It would be around 56% pure. Molecular Mass of tartric Acid is 150 g/mol.

Futura, did you know that Vitamin C actually increases the rate at which you metabolize MDMA, causing a more intense but seemingly shorter roll?

No I didnt interesting article have you ever tried it?

 

[Folley]

I meant that all the doses on Erowid, and the doses by Shulgin are listed as the HCL, because everyone assumes that people are going to be taking MDMA HCL every single time... whether you agree or not, that's the assumption

It wouldnt because Tartric Acid is a heavier molcule. It would be around 56% pure. Molecular Mass of tartric Acid is 150 g/mol.



No I didnt interesting article have you ever tried it?

Maybe I said that wrong, but what I meant was that if you had 84mg of MDMA (without an acid) and turn that into a new salt, like what you are saying should happen when you add MDMA to red wine, it will still be 84mg of MDMA, and any additional weight change is due to the salt and not lost product..




and yes actually, I have. There was once where I washed down some MDMA with orange juice high in Vitamin C, I had like a 3 hour but INTENSE roll... it will hit you faster as well. Honestly I like a longer roll though, so I stay away from any Vit. C until the comedown, it's great then, brings you back up a bit.

 

[futura2012]

I meant that all the doses on Erowid, and the doses by Shulgin are listed as the HCL, because everyone assumes that people are going to be taking MDMA HCL every single time... whether you agree or not, that's the assumption

Im not disputing you I am just not sure. Shulgin definitely produces HCL it is documented in his synth. but he also sais this:

The actual form that the final salt takes depends upon the temperature and concentration at the moment of the initial crystallization. It can be anhydrous, or it can be any of several hydrated forms. Only the anhydrous form has a sharp mp; the published reports describe all possible one degree melting point values over the range from 148-153 ° C. The variously hydrated polymorphs have distinct infrared spectra, but have broad mps that depend on the rate of heating.

He talks about anhydrous and hydrated crystals. The hydrated would have water molecules in them thus making them weaker.

When he sais I am taking 120mG does he mean an anhydrous crystal or hydrated crystal of hcl? that was my point on add.

Because you dont know what crystal he is taking either hydrated or not I assumed he might mean 120mG of MDMA molecule I still dunno?? i guess you could argue it doesnt really matter but then its supposed to be very accurate and scientific.

I wish I could figure it out. Sekio suggested contact edata that was a good plan

Still it doesn't solve the shulgin saga.

and yes actually, I have. There was once where I washed down some MDMA with orange juice high in Vitamin C, I had like a 3 hour but INTENSE roll... it will hit you faster as well. Honestly I like a longer roll though, so I stay away from any Vit. C until the comedown, it's great then, brings you back up a bit.

Thats interesting I will have a look at your link when I get a minute. I got called stupid on the ADD thread. Someone said the guy was unwarranted and sucked. i hope it doesnt kick off. Its weird as I never said anything bad or insulting. My thread was a bit long but I had to try and get the point across with couple of salt pics etc. Dunno why. maybe the guys a bit elitist? Sekio is nice always takes the time out to reply no insults even though they are all super intelligent.

 

[futura2012]

There's no facile way to account for all possible multiplicities of hydration. At MDMA's low level of potency, its a non-issue for everything but melting point analysis. Assume its the unhydrated HCl salt (as the freebase is a caustic oil).

That sums it up for me. Wow I love them at ADD such super bright people.

Okay I agree with you. Shulgin means 120mG HCL.

Just need to nail edata measurements now.

 

[Folley]

ADD can either be super helpful people, or a bunch of little girls arguing over an unimportant subject (my only thread in there is an example of this)... kind of depends on which moons are out.



Honestly though, fuck Shulgin's advice, I know how to dose myself the best lol.

150mg of reagent and lab tested MDMA orally.. you can't go wrong. I didn't like my Vit. C enhanced roll as much though, it was too short, and I even had some MDA as well that time. IMO, old MDMA HCL is good enough for me

 

[futura2012]

I was looking on ** today I notice they have MDA on there. That 6-APB someone mentioned wow the structure almost looks identical. Is that stuff legal in USA? I guess its probably falls under the analogs act law.

Honestly though, fuck Shulgin's advice, I know how to dose myself the best lol.

Yeah fuck Shulgin what does he know about drugs :D

Check this out if you havent seen it I watched it today recommended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu0O-HPpE0M Dirty Pictures

 

[tzeentch]

Personal experience -- I had a few glasses of big, heavy reds with cheese and crackers an hour before taking the pills.

It wasn't the greatest of rolls and I had a bitch of a dehydration hangover the next morning. I haven't mixed the two since.

However, I do realize that I didn't crush up the pills and let them sit for 30 minutes before consuming.

Wine is 12-14% ethanol. Any ideas on the reaction of MDMA in alcohol for 30 minutes?

 

[Folley]

I notice they have MDA on there

They have everything.... but no MDE

Wine is 12-14% ethanol. Any ideas on the reaction of MDMA in alcohol for 30 minutes?

Nothing, I often add alcohol to any solution of a substance that doesn't dissolve well (Oxycontin and Methylphenidate are some examples). Just do this with as small amount of wine as possible, like less than a shot. You don't want to get drunk at all, but one and a half ML of alcohol (15ml of 10% wine) won't do anything..

 

[futura2012]

Can't say I'm following all the science here, but, would it be correct to say that *IF* alcohol has this effect on MDMA in hcl form, it would also have the same effect on other substances in the hcl form (e.g., mescaline, bk-mdma, etc.)?

I agree square. I dont have a specific theory only based on what I have heard and that other bl thread.

The theory is not any alcohol only red wine. I think it relates to the Citric and Tartric acids in the wine.

It wasn't the greatest of rolls and I had a bitch of a dehydration hangover the next morning. I haven't mixed the two since.

Doesnt require much just enough to dissolve it.

Wine is 12-14% ethanol. Any ideas on the reaction of MDMA in alcohol for 30 minutes?

Dont know the answer. I assume as red wine doesnt evaporate too much then shouldnt vape any MDMA. The salt will just dissolve.

I am told adding some sugar helps also. two reasons it will make the wine taste nicer (cause its just been loaded with mdma) and I think the sugar has an effect also.

All theory unknown at present

 

[avcpl]

I agree square. I dont have a specific theory only based on what I have heard and that other bl thread.

The theory is not any alcohol only red wine. I think it relates to the Citric and Tartric acids in the wine.



Doesnt require much just enough to dissolve it.



Dont know the answer. I assume as red wine doesnt evaporate too much then shouldnt vape any MDMA. The salt will just dissolve.

I am told adding some sugar helps also. two reasons it will make the wine taste nicer (cause its just been loaded with mdma) and I think the sugar has an effect also.

All theory unknown at present

hmmm, I just don't see how a small amount of citric and tartic acid is going to make a big difference when it's all dumped into a gut full of hydrochloric acid...

Maybe you should post this question over in ADD to have their take on the science involved....I dare you!

 

[futura2012]

Maybe you should post this question over in ADD to have their take on the science involved....I dare you!

Likely to be called stupid me guesses.

This is just one of those things that someone needs to try. We can theorize about it but some claim this works.

Would be very very interesting to know.

I take your point about the stomach neutralizing the acids. But at the end of it all who really knows what this highly complex molecule is actually doing.

The science points us in the right direction but no one knows for sure.

 

[JWills20]

I wanna try this. Next rave i'm at i'm gunna order a small glass of wine to swallow my bomb with and then finish it. Wine tends to make me a quite horny and more loved-up drunk. In combination with MDMA I could be some sort of loved-up sex pest. Hilarious.

 

[futura2012]

In combination with MDMA I could be some sort of loved-up sex pest. Hilarious.

Awesome news! I am also told adding sugar makes an additional kick. This will also neutralize the horrible MDMA taste in the wine.

Wow a loved-up MDMA Tartrate sex pest :D :D

Please report back Mr J would be brill to know if this idea works.

 

[JWills20]

Yea I will but its going to be a long time till I roll. Probably around October for Westfest! But i'm already excited to try it.